King Hall shenanigans

shiner

shiner

USAFA Grad, Faculty 3yrs, ALO 7yrs
10-Year Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
1,185
A different post about dining halls got me thinking this morning and I wanted to solicit the community for more insight on three events I witnessed that still blow my mind some years later. I visited USNA as part of the Air Force vs Navy football game contingent in the fall of 1995. I had previously been to USNA for Summer Seminar, but had never seen what was about to unfold. As a 4*/plebe in 1995, my perspective was that meal times were tense and quite "stract" or hyper disciplined and you were lucky to get a few bites in. Being a USAFA 4* visiting USNA for a meal time... wow, I was on ALERT and focused on minimizing the attention that was aimed at me (in my USAFA uniform amongst a sea of USNA mids).

So.... there I was....

1) The head of the table asked the plebe next to me if she was going to finish something on her plate (like a dinner roll) and if he could have it if she was not going to eat it. The request seemed normal enough for me and quite polite. Well.... all I can say about what unfolded next is that the plebe went BAT !#@$ crazy! The plebe asked for clarification to understand what the request was (arrogantly and rudely like "WHAT? WHAT DID YOU JUST ASK ME?") and then she EXPLODED in her own rant of yelling. She climbed up on the table and began kicking things off and yelling at the upperclassman head of the table as she walked towards the midshipman. In the end, she said something like "If you want it, you can have it" and threw it at him. As a freshman myself, it seemed to me that this was not normal and I somehow found myself in the middle of an international relations crisis with my primary focus of laying low and getting out of the way of the venom that was about to fly. Had this happened at USAFA, the swarm of upperclassman that would reign down on me would have been epic and I just knew a beat down of significant proportions was headed our way. However..... people clapped and the upperclassman said something to the effect of "Good job plebe - have a seat." MIND BLOWN - was this theater? Was there some unknown question/response type game that just played out in front of me? In retrospect, that was kind of cool, but in the moment, all I could think was WHAT IS HAPPENING?!?!?!?

2) Tables in King Hall were arranged (likely still are) in a way that had two tables next to each other with a small space to allow the chairs at the head of each table to go in and out. The opposite ends of the tables opened to much wider isles. During another meal on this trip, there seemed to be another type of game in which a plebe would attempt to run between tables to see how far they could get before being stopped by the upperclassman at the head of the table. Can anyone explain the rules of this game and what it is all about?

3) Finally, I got milked.... There I was at the end of the table (where plebes sit) which is next to the wide isle between tables. Sitting there, eating quietly when a plebe sneak attacked me and dumped an entire quart of milk on me. I was wearing Parade Dress - we only get issued one pair so of course that was the only one of that uniform I had with me on the trip.... First, I was in shock - like, WHAT JUST HAPPENED? Second, those around me in King Hall are cheering in support of the spirit mission that just unfolded around me. Third, I chased the guy! The dorm is connected by hallways and I presume we got all the way to his room where he shut and locked the door. I was then told by upperclassman that the rule was something to the effect of if the plebe can make it to their room, it is like the game is over - they win that round. WHAT???? There I sat outside this guy's room in Blue Parade dress that was soaked in white milk and I was fuming mad only to be told he was back at home base, safe, and that I needed to let it go and walk away.

So, needless to say, those were some eventful days. Does anyone have more info behind these games/traditions?
 
1. I have no idea on that one. Never seen something like that. And, yes, meals as a Plebe were not fun. I have eaten in King Hall a few times in the last 5 or so years and it seemed to be much quieter and calmer. Food is alot better, snacks are available, way more options then we ever had.

2. There are all kinds of hijinks that Plebes would do from Peanut Butter on an upperclassman's shoe, dumping some type of nastiness on an upperclass and other things. Basically the rules of any of this are, do the "mission" and make it back to your room and you are "safe". There are tons of other "traditions" such as drinking "Beat Armys" and cannonball runs. There might be some newer ones, but those are the ones that have been around a long time. Honestly I hated all of them and never participated in any of them. I was an in season athlete during Air Force and Army football games generally and didn't have time to for alot of that or to feel like trash from some nasty drink.

3. Honestly, that was plain wrong to do that to a visitor, even during Air Force week. We all know the pranks of Air Force week, but when someone is visiting (and only has that uniform) that is wrong.
 
Though I will leave it to the grads/current mids in here to speak to the specifics of these events, I’ll post a clip that highlights an intangible cultural bent toward fun and games in the Navy, especially if any outsider is present. There is something about a culture that arises in settings thousands of miles out of sight of land, that develops an insouciant approach to exploiting situations for humor through ritual and games. Add in the dining table setting, and somehow the magic occurs. It’s hard to pin down. It shows up in many of the A-N spirit videos with that swag undertone, in the “Lovin’ Feelin’” scene in “Top Gun,” and in the clip below.

As @NavyHoops rightly points out, no one or nothing should be harmed, which in the leadership lab of USNA, often goes awry due to poor impulse control or failure to think all consequences through.

Capt Jack Aubrey, with his officers in HMS Surprise, having dinner at sea in dress uniform, with fine china and crystal, having fun with Dr. Maturin.
 
It all seems quite stupid to me, but I was never a MIDN, so I will defer to Hoops on this one. It would seem that we're in agreement. ;)

Here's a video:

 
See what comradarie is missing ala ’covid? Looking forward to these experiences/stories that plebes are missing out on. As messy and confusing as they are...
 
Capt MJ said:
Though I will leave it to the grads/current mids in here to speak to the specifics of these events, I’ll post a clip that highlights an intangible cultural bent toward fun and games in the Navy, especially if any outsider is present. There is something about a culture that arises in settings thousands of miles out of sight of land, that develops an insouciant approach to exploiting situations for humor through ritual and games. Add in the dining table setting, and somehow the magic occurs. It’s hard to pin down. It shows up in many of the A-N spirit videos with that swag undertone, in the “Lovin’ Feelin’” scene in “Top Gun,” and in the clip below.

As @NavyHoops rightly points out, no one or nothing should be harmed, which in the leadership lab of USNA, often goes awry due to poor impulse control or failure to think all consequences through.

Capt Jack Aubrey, with his officers in HMS Surprise, having dinner at sea in dress uniform, with fine china and crystal, having fun with Dr. Maturin.
Click to expand...

The funny part is that even with all that... the Navy shipboard wardroom is by far the most formal environment I ever dined in (while in the military... now I just do the most boring business dinners that make me want to fall asleep in my overpriced steak and a la carte sides while in a suit for the 12th hour of the day) unless at a formal event like Dining In or something along those lines.
 
shiner said:
1) The head of the table asked the plebe next to me if she was going to finish something on her plate (like a dinner roll) and if he could have it if she was not going to eat it. The request seemed normal enough for me and quite polite. Well.... all I can say about what unfolded next is that the plebe went BAT !#@$ crazy! The plebe asked for clarification to understand what the request was (arrogantly and rudely like "WHAT? WHAT DID YOU JUST ASK ME?") and then she EXPLODED in her own rant of yelling. She climbed up on the table and began kicking things off and yelling at the upperclassman head of the table as she walked towards the midshipman. In the end, she said something like "If you want it, you can have it" and threw it at him. As a freshman myself, it seemed to me that this was not normal and I somehow found myself in the middle of an international relations crisis with my primary focus of laying low and getting out of the way of the venom that was about to fly. Had this happened at USAFA, the swarm of upperclassman that would reign down on me would have been epic and I just knew a beat down of significant proportions was headed our way. However..... people clapped and the upperclassman said something to the effect of "Good job plebe - have a seat." MIND BLOWN - was this theater? Was there some unknown question/response type game that just played out in front of me? In retrospect, that was kind of cool, but in the moment, all I could think was WHAT IS HAPPENING?!?!?!?
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On Number 1, that plebe was taught that NOBODY could take food away from them and to defend their meal.
 
NavyHoops said:
The funny part is that even with all that... the Navy shipboard wardroom is by far the most formal environment I ever dined in (while in the military... now I just do the most boring business dinners that make me want to fall asleep in my overpriced steak and a la carte sides while in a suit for the 12th hour of the day) unless at a formal event like Dining In or something along those lines.
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LOL. As Hoops knows, that formal wardroom meal is "led" by the President of the mess or other senior person who seats everyone (all stand until told to do so) and then is served first, etc. When I deployed as a still very junior LT (O3) aboard an Amphib, we could not fit all of our officers plus the USMC officers in the Wardroom so had to go to two sittings just like a cruise ship. The XO assigned me to be the President of the First Sitting for that deployment and it was a lot of fun. Sometimes IT IS GOOD TO BE THE KING. . .
 
A couple years ago, I was telling a retired USN 06 (ROTC type) that my DS was appointed to the Yard. He said..."oh he's going to be a table thumper..." I asked what do you mean? He said that when he was in command of a small USN ship, he had to throw some new USNA grads out of the wardroom because the kept thumping their fists on the wardroom table...I was surprised, as when I was a USNR officer and did ACDUTRA on combat ready "active" ships...the wardroom was very formal. I graduated from the Massachusetts Maritime Academy (many years ago), we (first class-men) would not have permitted the type of behavior the AF Cadet experienced-however, we did do plenty of other stupid things.
 
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Every Company at USNA had (has ?) its own traditions and culture, and of course, they tend to change over time. Sounds like the first comment was one of those .. I don't recall seeing anything like it when I was at USNA (1981-85).

Visiting during Army , and to a lesser degree, Air Force, week is not typical of what you see on a day to day basis. Midshipman often take a lot of liberties in the name of SPIRIT. Sometimes that Spirit was misplaced and out of line.

The milk incident was a "wild man", where the Plebe throws food or drink on upperclass, and if they get back to their room alive they get carry on. This was rarely initiated sua sponte by the Plebe, but rather instigated by an Upperclasss who egg on the Plebe until the act is done. It is unfortunate and inappropriate that a visiting Cadet (with one uniform) was targeted, but I suspect that exchange Cadets were common targets.

I suspect a lot of the shenanigans that occurred back in the day have been abolished and replaced by a kinder , gentler wardroom like atmosphere.
 
In our day, meals in King Hall were not fun for the plebes, at least until late 2nd semester. We would be grilled on rates before the meal and, often, during the meal. Things were especially bad if the football team lost or if the upperclass didn't do well on their 4-weekers (exams). Between serving responsibilities, getting the leftovers of food (though there was always enough), rates and pranks, meals were something to be endured, not enjoyed. Obviously, different story for upperclass.

Hi-jinks were both fun and mean-spirited. Some of the more benign included "testing your lungs" for Navy or unique ways of leaving the table (snorkeling as a submarine, for example). The not so nice included chugging a bottle of tabasco sauce or eating multiple cannonballs. Most of the time, plebes "volunteered" for these actions in order to garner carry-on for themselves and their table mates. Sometimes they were "voluntold" by upperclass.

As for the examples cited, I don't recall any of them occurring in our day but agree that things could get ramped up during AF and Army weeks. And some companies / mids were more into the spirit stuff than others. My understanding is that, some time ago, leadership decided that meals should be more aligned with officers's wardrooms and thus more genteel / focused on professional discussion.
 
Still have the vivid memory of one of my fellow plebe tablemates trying to complete the 12 cannonballs with hard sauce challenge and only making it to #11 before the inevitable happened. Fortunately our table was close to one of the exit doors and he managed to make it there.
 
It's odd how all Internet photos of US Navy mess decks show happy sailors being served by the CNO, MCPON, or the ship's CO on Thanksgiving. Complete with table garnish, mess cooks not wearing dirty T-shirts, and palatable chow. This pic is an accurate representation of enlisted crew dining on a ship. Food served from a chow line on plastic trays.

navy13.jpg

USS Bulkeley DDG-84 wardroom. Family style dining using fine China. Very formal. A clean mess cook provides service.
navy12.jpg
 
Old Navy BGO said:
The milk incident was a "wild man", where the Plebe throws food or drink on upperclass, and if they get back to their room alive they get carry on. This was rarely initiated sua sponte by the Plebe, but rather instigated by an Upperclasss who egg on the Plebe until the act is done.
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Didn't go to a Service Academy and glad I didn't. That said, I would have had a hard time letting this go. If I didn't catch the antagonist, I would have pennied them into their room, deployed a shaving cream "bomb" under the door, and/or lay in wait for them in an ambush. I would get my revenge 100 times over.

That probably says a lot more about me than I should share...
 
Devil Doc said:
It's odd how all Internet photos of US Navy mess decks show happy sailors being served by the CNO, MCPON, or the ship's CO on Thanksgiving. Complete with table garnish, mess cooks not wearing dirty T-shirts, and palatable chow. This pic is an accurate representation of enlisted crew dining on a ship. Food served from a chow line on plastic trays.

View attachment 7731

USS Bulkeley DDG-84 wardroom. Family style dining using fine China. Very formal. A clean mess cook provides service.
View attachment 7730
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Honestly, I’ve always been a bit put off by the wardroom atmosphere (disclaimer: I haven’t been on a ship to actually witness it). Why does the Navy still have separate mess decks with notably nicer food (and service from enlisted sailors) while officers in other branches “eat last?”

It seems like remnants from an old aristocratic British Navy. Why is the wardroom still a thing? Is it less grandiose than I think, or is my impression of other branches wrong?
 
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Skipper07 said:
Honestly, I’ve always been a bit put off by the wardroom atmosphere (disclaimer: I haven’t been on a ship to actually witness it). Why does the Navy still have separate mess decks with notably nicer food (and service from enlisted sailors) while officers in other branches “eat last.”

It seems like remnants from an old aristocratic British Navy. Why is the wardroom still a thing? Is it less grandiose than I think, or is my impression of other branches wrong?
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It’s actually one of the reasons I went Marine Corps. The ship wardroom environment was a turn off for me. Now having a wardroom space for the other things... social things and meetings, I understand.
 
Skipper07 said:
Honestly, I’ve always been a bit put off by the wardroom atmosphere (disclaimer: I haven’t been on a ship to actually witness it). Why does the Navy still have separate mess decks with notably nicer food (and service from enlisted sailors) while officers in other branches “eat last.”

It seems like remnants from an old aristocratic British Navy. Why is the wardroom still a thing? Is it less grandiose than I think, or is my impression of other branches wrong?
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First of all, it is now the same food, operative word being now. A couple of decades ago, the food WAS different and often better BUT we paid for it. Officer get Subsistence allowance that is supposed to cover that but our mess bills were generally 50% above BAS and at times were double our BAS.
From your comment, you'll be happy to note that the LCSs have their officers stand in the mess line right alongside their sailors.

As for they whys? I can't say if it is a good thing or a bad thing but will note that in my experience, the crew would rather have chiefs and officers NOT mix with them and I've seen that at the University where I teach and in numerous company cafeterias.
 
OldRetSWO said:
I can't say if it is a good thing or a bad thing but will note that in my experience, the crew would rather have chiefs and officers NOT mix with them and I've seen that at the University where I teach and in numerous company cafeterias.
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My last base had an all-ranks club and this created some difficulty from time to time. Most officers recognized the need to give the enlisted Marines some space and stopped by after work for a quick drink and then departed.
 
Skipper07 said:
Honestly, I’ve always been a bit put off by the wardroom atmosphere (disclaimer: I haven’t been on a ship to actually witness it). Why does the Navy still have separate mess decks with notably nicer food (and service from enlisted sailors) while officers in other branches “eat last.”

It seems like remnants from an old aristocratic British Navy. Why is the wardroom still a thing? Is it less grandiose than I think, or is my impression of other branches wrong?
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I don't think most sailors worry too much about the "caste" system aboard ship. It didn't bother me at least. As @OldRetSWO pointed out above, we didn't want Os and Chiefs eating with us anyway. After I made HMC I felt no guilt about my new living arrangement. We ate the same food from the mess decks but had the ability to bring aboard food just for us and paid for by us. At least now everybody wears the same uniform. I know more about officer eating because I was the one inspecting all food service facilities. I felt it my responsibility to do an organoleptic exam of the officer's food to ensure they were adequately fed.

My third ship was a replenishment oiler which was a deep draft used as a qualifier for aviators seeking command of a carrier. I had two COs while there and the one who took us to the Med sent his MS2 to France to attend a two week pastry course. "His" MS2 you ask? Yep. The CO on an AOR had his own galley and a small ward room in the forward super structure where his cabin was. The ward room for all other officers was in the aft super structure. The MS2 was waiting on the pier in Rota when we pulled in for INCHOP. I had to inspect the CO's galley as well. We, I mean he ate really well.
 
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