Lawsuit filed against USAFA Superintendent

Atheism is in itself a belief. No different at all than Catholicism. To say you'll not allow any formal recognition of religion, and therefor aren't promoting a particular belief, actually does promote a belief. Instead, you are endorsing and promoting atheism which is in fact a belief.

I'm not with you here. If USAFA did not hold the prayer luncheon, you assert that this is tantamount to promoting atheism? I don't think so. If the event does not occur, USAFA is promoting nothing. There is no discussion of God, or the lack thereof, occurring on campus if the event is not held (at least in this capacity).

The only way USAFA would be promoting atheism is if they brought in Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens, or someone like that to make a speech specifically designed to advocate atheism. Then I'd be with you, then the USAFA would be promoting atheism, and that would be inappropriate.
 
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Yet we are not outraged because the majority are believers in Christianity. But for that very reason is why we all should oppose any official Government endorsement of a particular faith, because the next time we might not be so approving of the sponsor's choice of speaker if he happens to not profess a faith we agree with.

Which is why we have a 1st Amendment in the first place.

:cool:

Did you even read the lawsuit. It specifically recognizes that the luncheon is including practically EVERY RELIGION under the sun. So where is this endorsement of a "PARTICULAR FAITH"??? The speakers are obviously recognizing the contributions different religions have had on our country. And that is exactly the meaning of the 1st amendment. To be able to express such things. The freedom of religion our country found so important during it's inception, was not that we should only support the religion and beliefs of atheists; but rather that we could recognize and express our beliefs in any religion, without other telling us we couldn't, or that we had to recognize a particular religion. This luncheon is exercising exactly what the first amendment is all about. This lawsuit is frivolous and it really is that simple.
 
Did you even read the lawsuit. It specifically recognizes that the luncheon is including practically EVERY RELIGION under the sun. So where is this endorsement of a "PARTICULAR FAITH"??? The speakers are obviously recognizing the contributions different religions have had on our country. And that is exactly the meaning of the 1st amendment. To be able to express such things. The freedom of religion our country found so important during it's inception, was not that we should only support the religion and beliefs of atheists; but rather that we could recognize and express our beliefs in any religion, without other telling us we couldn't, or that we had to recognize a particular religion. This luncheon is exercising exactly what the first amendment is all about. This lawsuit is frivolous and it really is that simple.

I read the entire lawsuit. Did you? What is scary (but not surprising) is that some cannot recognize the explicit endorsement of a particular religious belief in this case, Christianity, or fail to recognize that the USAFA has a checkered history when it comes to Christian proselytizing at the academy.

And to characterize Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and Judaism as "practically every religion under the sun" is grossly ignorant of religious beliefs. About 1.5 BILLION Hindus, Confuscists, Unitarians, Sihks, and Shintoists might disagree with you.

As I posted earlier, I can only imagine the outrage if the officially sponsored featured guest speaker was a "Marine for Allah" or a "Marine for Buddha" or a "Marine for Vishnu" or etc etc.

And let's not forget, his book will be on sale in the lobby after his performance. :rolleyes:

The use of the USAFA in the title, the invitations, the web site, and the base commander is a tacit endorsement of religion by the Government which is specifically disallowed by the Constitution.

It's now in the hands of the court, I'm sure they will rule with justice and fairness, balancing the rights of everyone to ensure the Constitution is followed.

Nothing more from me.

:cool:
 
Amazing insight. But doesn't the whole issue depend on whether the atmosphere was coercive?
 
“There will be readings by an IslamicAirman, a Jewish Airman, an African-American Christian Airman, a Jewish chaplain(rabbi), a Buddhist sensei and a Catholic chaplain (priest). By design, this expresses some of the rich religious diversity that makes up America's Air Force and your United States Air Force Academy.”

Yea; you're so right Luigi. It is scary:
What is scary (but not surprising) is that some cannot recognize the explicit endorsement of a particular religious belief in this case, Christianity
I can definitely see the "Explicit" endorsement of christianity here.

No, what is really scary, is how for many people, the 1st amendment is so important to them, but ONLY when it benefits them and/or the minority. If it's the majority, then the 1st amendment isn't important. It's OK to endorse, support, and recognize something like National Black Heritage Month. For the last couple months, people in the military and around the country were supporting, discussing rights to express, etc... for gays/lesbians. So, as long as it's a minority group, the 1st amendment is applicable and everyone, including the military/government can support and endorse it. But if it's the majority, then they aren't allowed to be recognized.

It's ok for muslims, buddists, hindu, wicca, etc... to be critical of christian religions, but if a christian is critical of any of the "Minority" religions in our country, they are racist, bigots, hate crime prone, etc... The more I read these type of arguments, the more I realize exactly how socially engineered our society has become. It is such hypocrisy.

If this was a Christian "Endorsement" like you dillusionally want to believe; I'd be in full support and understanding of your position. But it isn't. It is a luncheon recognizing religious diversity. Just because the overwhelming majority of Americans, and our forefathers, were people of faith, and are the majority of the country, just pisses off the atheists. Again; if this was a luncheon to honor, celebrate, recognize, etc... some minority group, there would be no law suit or whining by the plaintiffs. They'd be celebrating this groups 1st amendment rights. But it's not. It's the Majority wanting the same 1st amendment right.

I came into the military a short time after Vietnam wound down. There were still quite a few people not respectful of military in uniform. I was at an airport in uniform in 1979, and a lady told be and some other service personnel that we should be ashamed of ourselves for killing people or supporting it. I wanted to blow up at her and kick or a$$. A major there, who had come in during the late 60's told me:

"We don't get to choose which constitutional rights we defend. And our job is only honorable if we protect the rights of all people. Especially a person's right to free speech, when that speech is directed towards us and intended to hurt. It's easy to defend the right to speech we agree with. It's more honorable to defend speech filled with hate towards us."

Maybe the plaintiffs of this bogus lawsuit should consider that. This recognition luncheon is recognizing all religion and the affect and influence it has had on our country, military, and the academy. Sorry folks, but those with religious beliefs ARE THE MAJORITY!!! Just because those without any religious beliefs are Minorities, doesn't mean that their will and desires are more important. That is probably the part that p.o.'s me the most. The hypocrites who support and defend the 1st amendment, as long as they "Agree" with it. Support those person's rights that you totally disagree with, and makes your blood boil. THEN, you will have honor. Until then, I don't have any respect for the hypocrites.
 
I'm not with you here. If USAFA did not hold the prayer luncheon, you assert that this is tantamount to promoting atheism? I don't think so. If the event does not occur, USAFA is promoting nothing. There is no discussion of God, or the lack thereof, occurring on campus if the event is not held (at least in this capacity).

The only way USAFA would be promoting atheism is if they brought in Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens, or someone like that to make a speech specifically designed to advocate atheism. Then I'd be with you, then the USAFA would be promoting atheism, and that would be inappropriate.

Sprog: Atheism "IS" a belief. No different in complexity, commitment, or passion than Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, etc... You're making it sound like Atheism and Religion are 2 separate things that can be viewed independently. They can't. Is there such thing as "COLD"? No, there isn't. Cold, is the ABSENCE of "HEAT". Reduce friction, you reduce heat. Atheism is the absence of belief or faith in a being or realm of existence beyond the acceptable definition of "Present existence". And there are those "Atheists" who believe in such a world/existence. This is their belief. Their faith. And there is nothing wrong for them to have this belief. And their belief entails no public recognition, acknowledgment, or acceptance of beliefs that are considered religious in nature. So basically, if an atheist and a christian were arguing the mentioning of something religious, the choices would be: 1) Allow it or 2) Disallow it. If you allow it, you are supporting the christian "belief". If you Disallow it, you are supporting the atheist "belief". Sorry; but saying NO to one, is the same as saying YES to the other. Not allowing ANY "Organized Religious" recognition, celebration, acknowledgment, etc... is the SAME as supporting the "Anti" position. In this case, atheism.
 
I just have to respond.

If this was a Christian "Endorsement" like you dillusionally want to believe; I'd be in full support and understanding of your position. But it isn't. It is a luncheon recognizing religious diversity.

Who is the endorsed, paid, promoted, featured speaker whose book will be on sale after the performance? Is it the Buddhist reader? The Islamic reader? The Jewish reader?

"Other statements from McClary make it clear that, to him, only born again Christians are "real" Christians. McClary's message not only excludes members of all non-Christian religions, but many Christians as well, making him a completely inappropriate choice for an Air Force Academy event."
Huffington Post 1/26/2011

Or how about the statement of former Marine and Vietnam veteran Bobby Muller, the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America:

"As a former Marine lieutenant who, like Lt. Clebe McClary, was severely wounded while leading a mission in Vietnam, I am appalled by my fellow Marine's statement that a "complete" Marine is one who likes to think that U.S.M.C. stands for "U.S. Marine for Christ." I am even more appalled that the United States Air Force Academy has invited someone with such a religiously divisive and sectarian message to speak at its upcoming National Prayer Luncheon, an event that should be inclusive of Airmen of all faiths.

Lt. McClary lost an eye and an arm; I lost the ability to walk. Countless other Marines, of all religions and no religion, have also suffered life-changing and permanent injuries in the service of our country. Lt. McClary dishonorably, not to mention illegally, appears in the uniform of a Marine before both military and civilian audiences, not with the message of "Once a Marine, Always a Marine," but a message of "Once a Marine, now 'a member of the Lord's Army.'"

Proselytizing and Christian supremacy have no place in the United States military, and I urge the Air Force Academy to reconsider its choice of Lt. McClary as the speaker for its Prayer Luncheon, and to replace him with a speaker who can deliver a message that is inclusive of members of all faiths."​

Christcorp said:
Sprog: Atheism "IS" a belief.....Not allowing ANY "Organized Religious" recognition, celebration, acknowledgment, etc... is the SAME as supporting the "Anti" position. In this case, atheism.

Are you actually taking a position that the absence of any religious endorsement or acknowledgement by the Government is an endorsement of atheism?

Wow.

To think that my driver's license is a support of atheism, as well as my passport, the BATF, NASA, the FAA, and the EPA, as none of them have (as far as I know) pronounced any endorsement of any religion. Therefore, they all must be endorsing atheism?

I am nonplussed.
 
The mods press hard that we don't make our posts personal. But your ignorance and determination to rationalize this into something it isn't, is a total waste of my time and life. See you, undoubtedly, on the next thread and topic of discussion. I'm out of here. If anyone with an open mind and can discuss this unemotionally and with logic, wants to talk to me about it; then PM me. I'm done on this one.
 
Sprog: Atheism "IS" a belief. No different in complexity, commitment, or passion than Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, etc... You're making it sound like Atheism and Religion are 2 separate things that can be viewed independently. They can't. Is there such thing as "COLD"? No, there isn't. Cold, is the ABSENCE of "HEAT". Reduce friction, you reduce heat. Atheism is the absence of belief or faith in a being or realm of existence beyond the acceptable definition of "Present existence". And there are those "Atheists" who believe in such a world/existence. This is their belief. Their faith. And there is nothing wrong for them to have this belief. And their belief entails no public recognition, acknowledgment, or acceptance of beliefs that are considered religious in nature. So basically, if an atheist and a christian were arguing the mentioning of something religious, the choices would be: 1) Allow it or 2) Disallow it. If you allow it, you are supporting the christian "belief". If you Disallow it, you are supporting the atheist "belief". Sorry; but saying NO to one, is the same as saying YES to the other. Not allowing ANY "Organized Religious" recognition, celebration, acknowledgment, etc... is the SAME as supporting the "Anti" position. In this case, atheism.

I'm not arguing that atheism is not a belief. It is the absence of belief in supernatural deities, yes, but that can conversly be explained as an affirmative belief in there not being supernatural deities. I'd venture to say that most folks hold atheist beliefs, it's just that some people take it one God further.

According to your theory, USAFA would either be advocating a theist viewpoint by having the luncheon, or by not having the luncheon, they are advocating an atheist position. In that case either option is problematic. So, I think your argument has to fail. I work for the federal government. Not once has my office had a prayer function or nonsecular event. Does that mean my agency is endorsing atheism? I don't think so.

I would point out that USAFA endorsement of atheist speakers such as Dawkins or Hitchens would fall into the same problematic sphere as the prayer luncheon. That would be advocating a lack of belief in God(s), and would be nonsecular.

Thus, it isn't a situation where approval of one means rejection of the other. The best option USAFA has is to just do nothing on the religion front, which would be achieved by the senior leadership at USAFA not endorsing prayer luncheons, atheist assemblies, buddhist meditation seminars or whatever.
 
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If I were a moderator, I would close this thread right now.
 
The mods press hard that we don't make our posts personal. But your ignorance and determination to rationalize this into something it isn't, is a total waste of my time and life.
\

But you decided to go with the personal attack regardless.

Again, wow.
 
I'm not arguing that atheism is not a belief. It is the absence of belief in supernatural deities, yes, but that can conversly be explained as an affirmative belief in there not being supernatural deities. I'd venture to say that most folks hold atheist beliefs, it's just that some people take it one God further.

According to your theory, USAFA would either be advocating a theist viewpoint by having the luncheon, or by not having the luncheon, they are advocating an atheist position. In that case either option is problematic. So, I think your argument has to fail. I work for the federal government. Not once has my office had a prayer function or nonsecular event. Does that mean my agency is endorsing atheism? I don't think so.

I would point out that USAFA endorsement of atheist speakers such as Dawkins or Hitchens would fall into the same problematic sphere as the prayer luncheon. That would be advocating a lack of belief in God(s), and would be nonsecular.

Thus, it isn't a situation where approval of one means rejection of the other. The best option USAFA has is to just do nothing on the religion front, which would be achieved by the senior leadership at USAFA not endorsing prayer luncheons, atheist assemblies, buddhist meditation seminars or whatever.


Pure solid logic, great post sprog. :thumb:
 
... our forefathers, were people of faith.

Off topic, but there has been some debate on that. A lot of scholarly opinion exists that at most, several of the founding fathers were deists, and that several may not have had a belief in the supernatural.

A quick internet seach came up with these quotes:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -James Madison

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all"-Thomas Paine

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"-John Adams (sounding a bit like John Lennon, I think)

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity"-Benjamin Franklin

Conversly, you can probably find quotes that show some of these founding fathers as devout Christians. Still, I don't think it's right to state unequivocally that they were people of faith, when we just don't really know. I have my thoughts, given that they were products of the Enlightment, but I (or anyone else) can't ever really know for sure.
 
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I'd venture to say that most folks hold atheist beliefs, it's just that some people take it one God further.

Just wanted to say that most folks don't hold atheist beliefs... The majority of people in the world believe in some sort of religion/god.
 
Just wanted to say that most folks don't hold atheist beliefs... The majority of people in the world believe in some sort of religion/god.

My quote is tounge-in-cheek (and I stole it from Richard Dawkins). Those who hold monotheistic beliefs (muslims, christians, jews) believe in only one God. Thus, they don't believe in Zeus, Athena, Hades, Poseidon, Hermes, Bacchus, Vishnu, Mars, Shiva etc. For those Gods, the monotheist is an atheist. That is, they reject belief in those deities. The "some people take it one God further," is a reference to someone who does not believe in any God.
 
My quote is tounge-in-cheek (and I stole it from Richard Dawkins). Those who hold monotheistic beliefs (muslims, christians, jews) believe in only one God. Thus, they don't believe in Zeus, Athena, Hades, Poseidon, Hermes, Bacchus, Vishnu, Mars, Shiva etc. For those Gods, the monotheist is an atheist. That is, they reject belief in those deities. The "some people take it one God further," is a reference to someone who does not believe in any God.

Ah, alright, that clears it up for me then. Not sure about others but personally I wouldn't see those as athiests, that would be considered their religion, right? Either way, I understand what you were saying now.
 
The mods press hard that we don't make our posts personal. But your ignorance and determination to rationalize this into something it isn't, is a total waste of my time and life. See you, undoubtedly, on the next thread and topic of discussion. I'm out of here. If anyone with an open mind and can discuss this unemotionally and with logic, wants to talk to me about it; then PM me. I'm done on this one.

I admire Christcorp's ability to ignore you guys.
 
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Off topic, but there has been some debate on that. A lot of scholarly opinion exists that at most, several of the founding fathers were deists, and that several may not have had a belief in the supernatural.

A quick internet seach came up with these quotes:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -James Madison

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all"-Thomas Paine

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"-John Adams (sounding a bit like John Lennon, I think)

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity"-Benjamin Franklin

Conversly, you can probably find quotes that show some of these founding fathers as devout Christians. Still, I don't think it's right to state unequivocally that they were people of faith, when we just don't really know. I have my thoughts, given that they were products of the Enlightment, but I (or anyone else) can't ever really know for sure.

Given the original post, it was inevitable to go down this historical road.

Last time I was at Monticello I picked up a copy of "The Political Writings of Thomas Jefferson". On religion, beyond his Reply to the Danbury Baptist Association advocating "A Wall of Separation" between church and state lies his belief in freedom of religion and freedom from religion. To wit, "... it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god."

Ole TJ even writes about the virtuousness of atheists.

210 pages of fascinating material across a broad spectrum.
 
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