McCain!

[hornetguy]

Nope, no politics here, but I was curious to question about his some at USNA. I wonder which nomination he got? If you were in his Dad's position, is it ethical to give your son a nom, even if he is one of the most qualified? How could you figure it out (I'm sure Senator McCain could just talk to counterparts like his fellow senator and the local rep). If you did get your dad's nom, I think people would resent that at the Academy perhaps. I dunno, this question makes me think about what I would do in either situation!

 

[Pima]

My guess is he got a Presidential. Remember dad is retired military.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Pima is right - McCain (the Senator) retired after 23 years in the Navy as a Navy Captain. He was a third generation Naval Academy graduate. As a 4th generation Midshipman I am sure a Presidential nomination is all his son needed. No conflict of interest at all.

 

[hornetguy]

doh, and that one too. But, for matters of pure conversation, what is the ethical route if something like the presidential wasn't available? What IF he couldn't get the local rep or other senator and all that is left is the father/mother as senator. Of if the father/mother was a rep. I'm just curious how you guys see it if you were in the position. That's really what I was after here.

 

[Pima]

I think they would probably get a supe, or dept of xxx. If they couldn't go that way I would guess they would go the route of colleague. I remember hearing or reading somewhere, that a cadet got a principal because their folks were big contributors...personally, I don't think it is fair, realistically that is how the world works. There was a RAND study many years ago saying that active duty children of flag officers are more likely to become flag officers...it stunned us so much that we fell out of our chairs...not

 

[Zaphod]

IIRC, young McCain went to NAPS, which means he got a SECNAV nomination anyway (assuming these things still work that way).

 

[hornetguy]

cool, thanks for the clarification Zap.

 

[USNA69]

IIRC, young McCain went to NAPS, which means he got a SECNAV nomination anyway (assuming these things still work that way).

Really doesn't happen this way. If you check the number of SecNav nominations annually, his total would only cover a small portion of the NAPS graduates. They insist that all NAPSters apply to all sources of nominations that are available to them. Those who do not ultimately qualify for a primary nomination will be relegated to the national pool and enter via that route as a qualified alternate with a secondary nomination. The SecNav is only used for those unable to get on any other nomination list.

Of course, JAM is correct. He is eligible for a Presidential. But, I ask you, what is so wrong if he enters under one of his MOCs, being the one who topped out in whole person score or enter legitimately via the national pool? Do 4th generation legacies not deserve equal treatment with everyone else?

 

[Zaphod]

Really doesn't happen this way. If you check the number of SecNav nominations annually, his total would only cover a small portion of the NAPS graduates. They insist that all NAPSters apply to all sources of nominations that are available to them. Those who do not ultimately qualify for a primary nomination will be relegated to the national pool and enter via that route as a qualified alternate with a secondary nomination. The SecNav is only used for those unable to get on any other nomination list.

Thanks for that clarification.

Way back during the Jurassic Period (i.e. - 1987), I remember applying for my MOC's nomination (and getting it), but then one day receiving an unrequested SECNAV nomination, which kinda left me looking like this:

Why did I apply to my MOC back then? Because I didn't know about the SECNAV thing, and just wanted to play it safe. (I am also running across almost 20 years of memory, which has its own perils.) I also applied to my (fill in a LONG string of REALLY BAD expletives here) Senator, who turned me down.

As is always the case, a candidate should persue ALL avenues of receiving a nomination that they are eligible for. Since it would seem that any "automatic" nomination that may have once existed for NAPSters has since changed, then I'd follow 69's advice and pull out the application shotgun.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

I remember applying for my MOC's nomination (and getting it), but then one day receiving an unrequested SECNAV nomination, which kinda left me looking like this:

Yep - you absolutely did the right thing. It all comes down to numbers. Napsters are allowed a nomination under the SEC NAV because they are Naval Reservists (likewise with Army and Air Force) - but the academy can only make 85 SECNAV nominations from reservists. There are what? Like 300 Napsters?
Your congressman delivers a slate of 10 but only 1 get the appointment - others get in from the national pool on OOM.
Presidential nominations - the numbers are unlimited but the academy can only appoint 100 from that group.

With McCain's son - he did indeed attend NAPS (poor math SAT's) so he would have qualified for a Presidential, SEC NAV and his MOC nominations - even if his Senator father recused himself he still could have applied to his Congressional Representative and other US Senator - and potentially pocketed 4 nominations.

BTW - this is a benefit to attending prep programs - those in NAPS, USMAPS, AF Prep, get a service connected nomination as will those in "Civil Prep" programs who attend a military school. Those candidate will qualify for a ROTC nomination. They all still definitely should apply to their MOC's as well.
This allows the academies flexibility in forming their classes.

 

[Luigi59]

They all still definitely should apply to their MOC's as well.

Some members of Congress will not even consider a NAPS/MAPS/AFAPS candidate for a nomination, bluntly telling them to "seek a nomination through the academy instead."

 

[Zaphod]

Some members of Congress will not even consider a NAPS/MAPS/AFAPS candidate for a nomination, bluntly telling them to "seek a nomination through the academy instead."

"Seek a vote through the Congress instead."

 

[USNA69]

Some members of Congress will not even consider a NAPS/MAPS/AFAPS candidate for a nomination, bluntly telling them to "seek a nomination through the academy instead."

The CGO is quite effective in dealing with these misguided MOCs. Therefore, the names on the MOC slate often 'evolve' over time. Besides, the MOC does want the NAPSters to show up in his annual group photo.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

I have heard of the situation that Luigi describes and I don't think it happens very often. The MOC is seriously misguided, attempting to play games with admissions and not doing his own constituent any favors.

Candidates should NEVER assume that this is their MOC's policy - the nomination should be sought after. Let the MOC explain it - at least the candidate can tell the academy that he/she attempted a nomination.

If every prep's MOC did this then they could not all be appointed to the academy - there just aren't enough other nominations to go around and it would seriously handicap the academy's ability to fill the "best class possible".
The numbers just don't add up. The prep schools have 200-300 preps. There are only 85 SECNAV's available. You cannot compete in the national pool with only a SEVNAV nomination. You need a MOC nomination for that.

If this practice was widespread - it could even jeopardize the academy's prep programs.

Now could there be an instance where a prepster competed for but didn't get a nomination - sure - if the district was really competitive ranking by oom could leave one off the slate of 10 - then the SECNAV could be used.
Again heed the academy's instructions: one should apply for every nomintation for which they are eligible.

 

[Luigi59]

Again heed the academy's instructions: one should apply for every nomination for which they are eligible.

I wholeheartedly agree, however sometimes the MOC can arbitrarily determine who is "eligible."

Just as some MOC's will reject nomination applications from prep schoolers, others will reject applications with SAT scores that are below some minimum number set by the MOC. Even if the candidate's SAT scores meet the minimum for appointment to the academy he is seeking.

And some, such as Senator Ben Cardin (D-MD) do both.

-----
Applicants who have been offered an academic experience at the US Naval Academy Preparatory School (NAPS), the U.S. Military Academy Preparatory School (MAPS), or the U.S. Air Force Academy Preparatory School (AFAPS) will not be considered for a nomination by our office....

Applicants who have successfully completed an academic year at NAPS, MAPS, or AFAPS will not be considered for a nomination by our office and should seek a nomination through the academy.

SAT scores with combined verbal and math scores of at least 1200 points are required to apply for a nomination.

http://cardin.senate.gov/services/academy.cfm
-----

 

[Pima]

I am at least impressed that he had an SAT min. I have seen many posts between here and CC with an applicant stating their Verbal SAT is 590, or ACT of 25, which is the AFA cut. It makes sense to have the min stated since the Acad even states the applicant is non-comp. with those scores and a nom.

 

[USNA69]

You’re making a mountain out of a molehill. From the SA Congressional Guide:

Substitute Nominations
Members of Congress are sometimes asked to
nominate applicants for admission who will further
the attainment of service academy class composition
goals. Often a service academy will bring sought-after
candidates to the attention of appropriate Members
of Congress. These individuals may be used to fill a
nomination slate to ten or to replace other nominees
who have declined or whose nominations have been
withdrawn.

I doubt very seriously if any MOC has ever had his entire list of nominees receive appointments. What the above statement says is that the USNA Admissions Office will call Senator Cardin and ask: "Hey Senator, remember that goofy kid of that cousin of yours that you nominated to USNA. the one who can’t walk a mile, much less run one. The one who couldn’t find his way out of a paper bag if you set it on fire. Well, we turned him down but he will probably get into AFA. You have a highly qualified NAPSter in your district who did not get a nomination. We are going to stick him into your cousin’s kid’s now vacant slot. Bye”

Just causes the Admissions people more work but this is how Sen Cardin can make the inappropriate statements which he does and still be in the paper with the NAPSter, both smiling from ear to ear, in May.

 

[USNA69]

I am at least impressed that he had an SAT min. I have seen many posts between here and CC with an applicant stating their Verbal SAT is 590, or ACT of 25, which is the AFA cut. It makes sense to have the min stated since the Acad even states the applicant is non-comp. with those scores and a nom.

From the AFA Admissions website:

Students who score below 580 verbal and 560 math on the SAT I and below 24 English/reading and 25 math/science reasoning on the ACT normally will not be competitive for an appointment.

From looking at the admission’s profile, apparently quite a few were outside the ‘normally’ range.

From USNA, last year, 31% scored below 600V and 16% below 600M. Not all went to NAPS. The average NAPS combined SAT was 1136.

Irresponsible statements such as this one by Sen Cardin undoubtedly causes candidates to not bother applying because they don’t think they will be competitive.

 

[Pima]

My bad, I guess I had the numbers that I stated as the need to have to be competitive. Bullet and I never paid attention to the min. since DS had a 1390 SAT and a 33 ACT

I am shocked by the percentage under 600. I would have thought it was much lower.

I cannot see Sen. Cardin, coming from a very competitive state being irresponsible by having a min. In NC there were over 200 applicants for noms sent to Senator Dole. Is it wrong for him to state that they need a certain SAT score to be viable? I would believe that he is at least motivating the applicants to become more competitive.

Why should his committee have to review records of an applicant that would not meet the mins stated by the academy?

"Normally" in my eyes would mean you have to be extraordinary in every other aspect...or recruited. If the academy is looking at you for an athletic reason, then you can still get your MOC. You are giving too much power to the Senator, for any applicant they still have at least 2 more sources (1 Sen, 1 Cong.)

 

[USNA69]

I cannot see Sen. Cardin, coming from a very competitive state being irresponsible by having a min………………………………I would believe that he is at least motivating the applicants to become more competitive.

Why should his committee have to review records of an applicant that would not meet the mins stated by the academy?

The vast majority of applicants do not have the benefit of a parent who has found this website.

The vast majority of applicants deal with school counselors who are not very familiar with the application/nomination process.

Many candidates, vaguely aware of a Congressional nomination requirement, begin their search with their MOCs. Annually, there is a spike in Academy applications by those who only found out by submitting a nomination application and being interviewed, that there is also an application process.

Granted, Cardin is a Senator, but how many candidates would read the statement on his website and simply give up? A candidate with ‘A’s in AP Calculus, Chemistry, English, and History. Some kids do not do well on standardized tests. You should not make the decision who is eligible. I should not make that decision. Neither should Sen Cardin. The Academy is the sole entity capable of such a decision.

Your present NC Senators have given primary nominations to AFA candidates with below 600 individual SATs.