MS3 torn PCL/MCL/Meniscus

[ngm1998]

I am an MS3 in AROTC on a 3-YR AD Scholarship and recently tore my PCL, MCL, and Meniscus. We are already assuming I am going to be an End of Camp Commissionee (Summer 2020), but first I have to be cleared by DODMERB. The PCL, from what my doctor has informed me, cannot be fully repaired, but operations can be done to do some damage control depending on the extent of the tear. So if I dont get the surgery I would fall under D223.8 (History of uncorrected anterior or posterior cruciate ligament injury) or if I do D223.9 (History of surgical reconstruction of knee ligaments within the last 12 months, or which is symptomatic or unstable or shows signs of thigh or calf atrophy). The meniscus also may need a waiver depending on treatment and timing (D223.92-.96)
Two questions:
1) Anyone reading this that has had their PCL waiver approved/denied? I guess just looking for reassurance of possibility.
2) If the meniscus waiver is time dependent, say 6 months post surgery (D223.92) or 12 months in the case of PCL Reconstruction (D223.9), would I just have to wait those months before I can apply for DODMERB clearance again to commission? This wouldnt be an issue as my commissioning date is much further than 6 months away. Or must I apply (and be DQed) immediately due to currently being on scholarship and contracted.
Thank you for whatever help/suggestions/humor yall may offer

 

[AROTC Parent]

I am an MS3 in AROTC on a 3-YR AD Scholarship and recently tore my PCL, MCL, and Meniscus. We are already assuming I am going to be an End of Camp Commissionee (Summer 2020), but first I have to be cleared by DODMERB. The PCL, from what my doctor has informed me, cannot be fully repaired, but operations can be done to do some damage control depending on the extent of the tear. So if I dont get the surgery I would fall under D223.8 (History of uncorrected anterior or posterior cruciate ligament injury) or if I do D223.9 (History of surgical reconstruction of knee ligaments within the last 12 months, or which is symptomatic or unstable or shows signs of thigh or calf atrophy). The meniscus also may need a waiver depending on treatment and timing (D223.92-.96)
Two questions:
1) Anyone reading this that has had their PCL waiver approved/denied? I guess just looking for reassurance of possibility.
2) If the meniscus waiver is time dependent, say 6 months post surgery (D223.92) or 12 months in the case of PCL Reconstruction (D223.9), would I just have to wait those months before I can apply for DODMERB clearance again to commission? This wouldnt be an issue as my commissioning date is much further than 6 months away. Or must I apply (and be DQed) immediately due to currently being on scholarship and contracted.
Thank you for whatever help/suggestions/humor yall may offer

Our former cadets experience with orthopedic surgery 6/7 months prior to Camp:
1) No PCL experience - follow the guidance of your doctor and physical therapist for a full recovery.
2) Your Cadre will submit a request for medical determination to Cadet Command when you have been released for full activity by your doctor. Keep your Cadre informed of your status and they will take necessary actions for initial notification to Cadet Command if required.

In general - you could be put on a medical LOA if the recovery timeline is long. Talk to your Cadre. Participate in every activity you can - even PT to assist or observe if allowed.

If you really want to commission, stay positive, don't let this injury and recovery get you down. It won't be easy post surgery trying to balance school, mobility issues, pain meds, and ROTC but you can do it.

Medical determination was submitted with surgical and follow up medical records in April prior to Camp. She provided the doctor (Workers Comp experience but no military background) the DoDI instructions regarding qualification standards and range of motion criteria. He wrote the release to full activity letter, for the medical determination, including 'medical metrics' indicating she was within tolerance. The medical determination took a long time - or so it seemed then.

When released to partial activity by the doctor she did independent PT at the same time and location as her ROTC unit. Many times PT was with the PMS also recovering from surgery. When the PMS was not present during PT she commonly had to nicely but firmly tell the NCO and Officer Cadre - 'No! I can't/won't do that. It does not meet my doctors guidance for recovery.' This difficult communication was a great life lesson.

 

[GoCubbies]

I am an MS3 in AROTC on a 3-YR AD Scholarship and recently tore my PCL, MCL, and Meniscus. We are already assuming I am going to be an End of Camp Commissionee (Summer 2020), but first I have to be cleared by DODMERB. The PCL, from what my doctor has informed me, cannot be fully repaired, but operations can be done to do some damage control depending on the extent of the tear. So if I dont get the surgery I would fall under D223.8 (History of uncorrected anterior or posterior cruciate ligament injury) or if I do D223.9 (History of surgical reconstruction of knee ligaments within the last 12 months, or which is symptomatic or unstable or shows signs of thigh or calf atrophy). The meniscus also may need a waiver depending on treatment and timing (D223.92-.96)
Two questions:
1) Anyone reading this that has had their PCL waiver approved/denied? I guess just looking for reassurance of possibility.
2) If the meniscus waiver is time dependent, say 6 months post surgery (D223.92) or 12 months in the case of PCL Reconstruction (D223.9), would I just have to wait those months before I can apply for DODMERB clearance again to commission? This wouldnt be an issue as my commissioning date is much further than 6 months away. Or must I apply (and be DQed) immediately due to currently being on scholarship and contracted.
Thank you for whatever help/suggestions/humor yall may offer

AROTC has a process called medical determination. I don’t know for sure but I am almost sure they won’t waiver a torn PCL with other ligamentous and meniscal pathology. The knee is just not stable enough at that point.

After 12 months Cadet Command will do a medical determination on you to decide if you can remain and commission in ROTC. As someone stated earlier, you can go on a medical leave of absence up to 2 years (someone may have to correct me on this) after you’re supposed to commission to get better.

It may be worth it for your cadre to go through brigade to cadet command to do a medical determination now to see if they’ll even consider keeping you in ROTC with the messed up knee. They may tell you that you can stay in ROTC only if you get surgery.

 

[ngm1998]

I am an MS3 in AROTC on a 3-YR AD Scholarship and recently tore my PCL, MCL, and Meniscus. We are already assuming I am going to be an End of Camp Commissionee (Summer 2020), but first I have to be cleared by DODMERB. The PCL, from what my doctor has informed me, cannot be fully repaired, but operations can be done to do some damage control depending on the extent of the tear. So if I dont get the surgery I would fall under D223.8 (History of uncorrected anterior or posterior cruciate ligament injury) or if I do D223.9 (History of surgical reconstruction of knee ligaments within the last 12 months, or which is symptomatic or unstable or shows signs of thigh or calf atrophy). The meniscus also may need a waiver depending on treatment and timing (D223.92-.96)
Two questions:
1) Anyone reading this that has had their PCL waiver approved/denied? I guess just looking for reassurance of possibility.
2) If the meniscus waiver is time dependent, say 6 months post surgery (D223.92) or 12 months in the case of PCL Reconstruction (D223.9), would I just have to wait those months before I can apply for DODMERB clearance again to commission? This wouldnt be an issue as my commissioning date is much further than 6 months away. Or must I apply (and be DQed) immediately due to currently being on scholarship and contracted.
Thank you for whatever help/suggestions/humor yall may offer

Our former cadets experience with orthopedic surgery 6/7 months prior to Camp:
1) No PCL experience - follow the guidance of your doctor and physical therapist for a full recovery.
2) Your Cadre will submit a request for medical determination to Cadet Command when you have been released for full activity by your doctor. Keep your Cadre informed of your status and they will take necessary actions for initial notification to Cadet Command if required.

In general - you could be put on a medical LOA if the recovery timeline is long. Talk to your Cadre. Participate in every activity you can - even PT to assist or observe if allowed.

If you really want to commission, stay positive, don't let this injury and recovery get you down. It won't be easy post surgery trying to balance school, mobility issues, pain meds, and ROTC but you can do it.

Medical determination was submitted with surgical and follow up medical records in April prior to Camp. She provided the doctor (Workers Comp experience but no military background) the DoDI instructions regarding qualification standards and range of motion criteria. He wrote the release to full activity letter, for the medical determination, including 'medical metrics' indicating she was within tolerance. The medical determination took a long time - or so it seemed then.

When released to partial activity by the doctor she did independent PT at the same time and location as her ROTC unit. Many times PT was with the PMS also recovering from surgery. When the PMS was not present during PT she commonly had to nicely but firmly tell the NCO and Officer Cadre - 'No! I can't/won't do that. It does not meet my doctors guidance for recovery.' This difficult communication was a great life lesson.

AROTC has a process called medical determination. I don’t know for sure but I am almost sure they won’t waiver a torn PCL with other ligamentous and meniscal pathology. The knee is just not stable enough at that point.

After 12 months Cadet Command will do a medical determination on you to decide if you can remain and commission in ROTC. As someone stated earlier, you can go on a medical leave of absence up to 2 years (someone may have to correct me on this) after you’re supposed to commission to get better.

It may be worth it for your cadre to go through brigade to cadet command to do a medical determination now to see if they’ll even consider keeping you in ROTC with the messed up knee. They may tell you that you can stay in ROTC only if you get surgery.

Thank you both for responding.

GoCubbies: If they do not waive my knee, would I have to pay back my scholarship? Also, how much of it do you think would have to do with the language the doctor uses? For example, my brother had a meniscus transplant, which is usually not waiverable but we were able to get very specific language used in his doctor's letter that (maybe???) helped the waiver authority's decision to allow him? Go Cubs Go, by the way.

 

[AROTC Parent]

Thank you both for responding.

GoCubbies: If they do not waive my knee, would I have to pay back my scholarship? ... Go Cubs Go, by the way.

ngm1998 - If you are medically disqualified and unable to get a waiver - with few exceptions (gross negligence), you won't have to pay back the scholarship - AR and CCR 145-1. However, don't give them any reason to release you for other reasons - GPA, attendance, performance, .... Keep in contact with your Cadre regarding your status because if put on a medical LOA they might not pay your tuition next semester.

 

[GoCubbies]

I am an MS3 in AROTC on a 3-YR AD Scholarship and recently tore my PCL, MCL, and Meniscus. We are already assuming I am going to be an End of Camp Commissionee (Summer 2020), but first I have to be cleared by DODMERB. The PCL, from what my doctor has informed me, cannot be fully repaired, but operations can be done to do some damage control depending on the extent of the tear. So if I dont get the surgery I would fall under D223.8 (History of uncorrected anterior or posterior cruciate ligament injury) or if I do D223.9 (History of surgical reconstruction of knee ligaments within the last 12 months, or which is symptomatic or unstable or shows signs of thigh or calf atrophy). The meniscus also may need a waiver depending on treatment and timing (D223.92-.96)
Two questions:
1) Anyone reading this that has had their PCL waiver approved/denied? I guess just looking for reassurance of possibility.
2) If the meniscus waiver is time dependent, say 6 months post surgery (D223.92) or 12 months in the case of PCL Reconstruction (D223.9), would I just have to wait those months before I can apply for DODMERB clearance again to commission? This wouldnt be an issue as my commissioning date is much further than 6 months away. Or must I apply (and be DQed) immediately due to currently being on scholarship and contracted.
Thank you for whatever help/suggestions/humor yall may offer

Our former cadets experience with orthopedic surgery 6/7 months prior to Camp:
1) No PCL experience - follow the guidance of your doctor and physical therapist for a full recovery.
2) Your Cadre will submit a request for medical determination to Cadet Command when you have been released for full activity by your doctor. Keep your Cadre informed of your status and they will take necessary actions for initial notification to Cadet Command if required.

In general - you could be put on a medical LOA if the recovery timeline is long. Talk to your Cadre. Participate in every activity you can - even PT to assist or observe if allowed.

If you really want to commission, stay positive, don't let this injury and recovery get you down. It won't be easy post surgery trying to balance school, mobility issues, pain meds, and ROTC but you can do it.

Medical determination was submitted with surgical and follow up medical records in April prior to Camp. She provided the doctor (Workers Comp experience but no military background) the DoDI instructions regarding qualification standards and range of motion criteria. He wrote the release to full activity letter, for the medical determination, including 'medical metrics' indicating she was within tolerance. The medical determination took a long time - or so it seemed then.

When released to partial activity by the doctor she did independent PT at the same time and location as her ROTC unit. Many times PT was with the PMS also recovering from surgery. When the PMS was not present during PT she commonly had to nicely but firmly tell the NCO and Officer Cadre - 'No! I can't/won't do that. It does not meet my doctors guidance for recovery.' This difficult communication was a great life lesson.

AROTC has a process called medical determination. I don’t know for sure but I am almost sure they won’t waiver a torn PCL with other ligamentous and meniscal pathology. The knee is just not stable enough at that point.

After 12 months Cadet Command will do a medical determination on you to decide if you can remain and commission in ROTC. As someone stated earlier, you can go on a medical leave of absence up to 2 years (someone may have to correct me on this) after you’re supposed to commission to get better.

It may be worth it for your cadre to go through brigade to cadet command to do a medical determination now to see if they’ll even consider keeping you in ROTC with the messed up knee. They may tell you that you can stay in ROTC only if you get surgery.

Thank you both for responding.

GoCubbies: If they do not waive my knee, would I have to pay back my scholarship? Also, how much of it do you think would have to do with the language the doctor uses? For example, my brother had a meniscus transplant, which is usually not waiverable but we were able to get very specific language used in his doctor's letter that (maybe???) helped the waiver authority's decision to allow him? Go Cubs Go, by the way.

I agree with @AROTC Parent

I don't think you'll have to pay back the scholarship if you're ultimately found medically DQ so long as the cause of the medical DQ wasn't from some buffoonery (eg you decided to get drunk and show off to your fellow cadets by running naked across campus during the polar vortex/arctic swirl, you slipped, and bent your knee awkwardly causing the PCL, meniscus, and MCL badness).

The reality is humans are reviewing these waiver requests and are prone to human biases. I think the current AROTC medical waiver recommender is more reasonable with his determinations.

 

[Devil Doc]

Ouch, I’ve been to the OR six times due to my knees. Your triple blow out makes me cringe.

Good luck.