New Cadet BBQ

Why not just let candidates know that they will retake the cfa during beast, and if they fail, they're gone?

At this point, other considerations kick in

If CFA waivers were given, what do we do?
What do we do with new cadets on profile?
Since CBT is packed with training, what do we give up to administer the CFA?
Do we change the WCS formula, as 10% suddenly becomes must pass?
How do we mange the class size? An urban legend at Ranger school is if too many students showed up, push up count goes something like zero zero zero, Ranger you failed.
 
At this point, other considerations kick in

If CFA waivers were given, what do we do?
What do we do with new cadets on profile?
Since CBT is packed with training, what do we give up to administer the CFA?
Do we change the WCS formula, as 10% suddenly becomes must pass?
How do we mange the class size? An urban legend at Ranger school is if too many students showed up, push up count goes something like zero zero zero, Ranger you failed.

I know a few current cadets who were deferred for a year because of CBT injuries. I do not understand why they don't do that for everyone who gets an injury that prevents them from completing the majority of the training. This would also cut down on the number of suspect injuries, or "profile rangers"

We could easily replace the first practice APFT with the CFA during week 1 of CBT
 
Here's my hierarchy of help for SAF:

1. Academy graduate officers currently assigned to an academy.
2. Current cadets or midshipmen
3. Academy grads currently serving
4. Academy grad not currently serving
5. Officers with other commissioning sources
6. Parents of current cadets or midshipmen
7. Officers no longer serving
8. Spouses of officers
9. Enlisted members currently serving
10. Enlisted members no longer serving
11. Future cadets or midshipmen
12. Parents of cadets or future midshipmen
13. Everyone else

I come in at #13.
I feel so unloved. :wink:
 
I know a few current cadets who were deferred for a year because of CBT injuries. I do not understand why they don't do that ...

Well stated. This is the type of comment that makes SAF interesting.:thumb:
Extra points for not attacking or berating anyone while making your point too!

In, “the good old days” being a chronic profile ranger wasn't tolerated (at least for EMs). Has this changed?
 
Are you USMA grad?

Plenty of pictures online today from the New Cadet BBQ at Day Camp...I mean Beast Barracks. Definitely thought the new Comm would put an end to the lameness of Beast.

Remind me, ScoutPilot, are you a West Point Grad or not?
 
I know you are only half tongue-in-cheek on this, so I'll play, also partially in jest:

This is because parents can only reflect second hand information from little Johnny/Suzie, heavily colored by emotion, pride, and concern.

Meanwhile the cadets live in a world of perfect information, with no scuttlebut, and are totally objective.

Yep, got it :thumb: Loud and clear, stay in your lane!

The reality is that there are topics where really only current cadets understand. Not parents, not grads, no one who is not living it that moment. These are largely things related to the cadet experience.

And there are other topics where the cadets largely are ill-informed. Just not on their radar, no current info feeds, etc.

I respect your opinion but disagree entirely with your idea that cadets are "largely ill-informed."

The current topic (CBT & cadet life) is one that really only current cadets have any recent info, and virtually none of them participate. (1-2%??? Maybe)

But it's largely an abstract discussion as there is virtually zero chance that a cadet can influence the decisions, etc. So most will not bother, and accept the decisions & politics, and move on.

Actually closer to 10% of the cadet population participates per summer and 20% has participated during any given school year. However, you underestimate what positions held or how many new cadets these current cadets have influence over. :thumb: My colleagues and I have sat down and had lunch with Comm multiple times and discussed our grievances and concerns and he is interested. Currently they are concentrating on CFT; however, there will be changes soon to CBT.

I know this is my cadet's position. And, in fact, he would question why a cadet would be spending time posting on this forum instead of being off at training, etc or on leave. His suspicion: Someone stuck on STAP/SGR and bored. Don't get me wrong, he willingly works with candidates from our state to help them with "life at USMA" questions, preparation, etc. Just has very little patience and zero desire for the abstract debates and dialogs on SAF.
One can always find time. And in the army there are very few instances or moments when you will not be waiting around with your phone in hand. However, his suspicion is wrong about the current whereabouts of the cadets posting in these forums. You may just kill your platoon if you attempt to "guess" the enemies whereabouts in real life:wink:

Likewise, there are other topics (Admissions process, budgets, this year's acceptance/report/CBT attrition figures, etc) that current cadets have very little view or concern. And many parents have as much or more understanding as the average cadet. And some parents have very detailed understanding on these items due to their involvement in various aspects & roles.

Not true. One must become versed in these topics before they can participate in CPRC. Many cadets participate and know these figures like the back of their hands. If they do not, then they have not attended the briefs to present and recruit in cities throughout the United States.

A current cadet should know the admissions process, unless, of course their parents completed the entire process for them...in that case I choose to reserve my opinion because mommy and daddy can only help them so far.

Also cadets experience the budget first hand. For example can parents speak for why most papers are now turned in electronically, or why the M240B is no longer a staple for summer training? What about the lack of CTLT spots on the West Coast and Abroad? Can parents answer for those. You seem to underestimate the scope and concern of most current cadets at West Point. Despite the "common" misconception we do not have a narrow view.

Ex: Cow Loans- USAA does a wonderful job briefing parents through the parent clubs. I know as fact that the average parent in our state understands this topic far more than our cadets do. Not a good thing, just the way it is. Yes, cadets are briefed as a group. Counselors are available. But most do not have context or interest (no pun intended) to understand the cow loan.

Since most of the population of West Point is unconcerned or far from experience this matter of course those that would be most knowledgeable are current Firsties or former cadets/parents. However, the general context and interest of the cow loan, investments, and usage are discussed frequently in economics and in lab hours aim specifically at financial matters. And the amount and process of the cow loan changes year to year (minimally yet it does change).

Some parents also have better viability to separations (voluntary & otherwise) than their cadets do. Boards, etc. Unless a cadet is directly involved, they know little about these areas. But parents usually hear the details, albeit from the separated cadet or their parents. I'll say it: a parent who has gone through boards or separation with their cadet is far more informed than 95% of the current cadets. It's also a topic parent clubs are briefed on by USMA, which gets cascaded.

I'm sure the parent of a seperated cadet would know more in this topic than any cadet currently at west point due to the simple fact that...they are still currently at west point. However, I'm not sure why that parent would remain on this forum and I know many a cadet that have sat through boards from CO level to SUPT level. I have friends who have left and those who have been seperated due to academic and physical reasons to sexual assault and harrassment. It's a touchy subject but all have either sat in or experienced some board or another. I have never witness a parent sitting in on a board.

Major command and policy changes are also usually available to involved parents well in advance of cadets learning of them.

These "cadets" you speak of seem very uninformed from those that I am accustomed to but it may just be uncommon in my circle of colleagues. However, talking to TACs on a regular basis will inform you of all command change in effect and in review. The removal of the TAC NCO who was video taping cadet females occured well before this last semester however the general public did not know of it until almost a year after many cadets did. Also many of GEN Martin's "command and policy changes" from last year have been overturned by the current comm this summer concerning uniform, alcohol, and room standards. However, I don't believe the parents have recieved any of this info after speaking with my mother.

Now while I do not doubt the validity of informed parents often times cadets are painted as narrow minded and concerned only with their bubble. However, if you would take the time to pick the brain of a centered Cow, Firstie or maybe even a Yuk you could learn a lot in a little. :thumb:
 
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I respect your opinion but disagree entirely with your idea that cadets are "largely ill-informed."

SNIP...

Now while I do not doubt the validity of informed parents often times cadets are painted as narrow minded and concerned only with their bubble. However, if you would take the time to pick the brain of a centered Cow, Firstie or maybe even a Yuk you could learn a lot in a little. :thumb:

Started to respond in detail, but will just say this comes across as "I'm tapped in, and the cadets you know and hear from are not".

But instead, I'm just glad you are participating and look forward to more frequent posts from you and peers. Especially if from a CPRC perspective.

If you reread my comment, I prefaced it with the point that for anything involving current cadet life, and the experiential aspects, current cadets are the only experts, closely followed by recent grads.

But for certain other topics, your average current cadets often do not get the info feeds that FFR and parent clubs do.

My read is that you might be overestimating the level of awareness and more importantly, interest in sharing that information by current cadets for those topics. (The exception would probably be any involved in PR council, etc)

And probably underestimating the level of information provided to field force, parent clubs, etc. Can't speak for the club in your area, or your parent's involvement.

So my point was that there are multiple groups with pieces of the puzzle. SAF is stronger when they all contribute.

If and when we see 40-80 current cadets actively participating on regular basis, I suspect most parents and parent club members would dial back participation in deference to the cadets. I know I would. And will for the current topic.

But if you want to discuss M80 Ball vs M855, PM me. You'd be surprised what some parents may be conversant in. If the relative difference in ammo costs is where USMA is impacting summer training plans, then we have a bigger issue to be concerned with.
 
It really depends on the cadet - free time, individual experience, involvement with certain organizations, etc.

There have been some instances where parents were told about something before cadets. The one that stands out to me was last year's taxes - parents were told that cadets could not claim education expenses, while cadets were left in the dark for more than a month. The problem here is that when a concerned parent calls a cadet saying "xyz told me you can't do abc" but the cadet hasn't received any official word on the other end, it gets confusing. But that's a debate for another thread.

On average, I'd say cadets have a better understanding of most things here, while parents may be getting more information on certain issues without really understanding the implications.
 
Parents tend to be more connected than the cadets/midshipmen realize, but less connected than the parents think.
 
Parents tend to be more connected than the cadets/midshipmen realize, but less connected than the parents think.

I think parents can be more biased in certain ways. I am biased myself.

As an old grad and a federal employee taking furlough days, I think cadets not having free printer paper, no AC in the barracks, or cut backs in AIDs, and etc are okay. I am for free printer paper, AC in the barracks, or more AIDS for cadets, but who will pay for them?
 
Is there no free paper,

no AC, or training, in the Federal, State, Local Govt buildings in the US now? These men/woman are on Federal land also, and 'working' and being paid just the same aren't they to a certain extent? Would it be the same if you shortened their school days but remained responsible for the same amount of work? Taking away necessities to do their job in a conducive environment for me doesn't equate.
 
no AC, or training, in the Federal, State, Local Govt buildings in the US now? These men/woman are on Federal land also, and 'working' and being paid just the same aren't they to a certain extent? Would it be the same if you shortened their school days but remained responsible for the same amount of work? Taking away necessities to do their job in a conducive environment for me doesn't equate.

We never had AC in our barracks at CGA...
 
As an old grad and a federal employee taking furlough days, I think cadets not having free printer paper, no AC in the barracks, or cut backs in AIDs, and etc are okay. I am for free printer paper, AC in the barracks, or more AIDS for cadets, but who will pay for them?

We really are okay. We never had AC, and soon enough West Point will go back to its frozen state anyway. The paper thing is an inconvenience for sure, but we'll survive. IAD's, well, there are still some cool ones left, you just have to be more competitive to get them :thumb:
 
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