Parents please get informed..

[fencersmother]

I have zero problem with boxing, with football, with pugil sticks, with self defense, with guns (horrors! guns in the military!).... I figure if the potential enemies have all that and more, I want my kid and yours to know what it's like to take a punch, to get whacked with a stick, how to handle a fire arm.

Sissies - we have enough of those in congress.

 

[-Bull-]

Hmmm... Enlisted aren't required to do boxing, and they are, arguably, the first in the line of fire, right? According to my son, 'combatives' were emphasized during basic training and they wore protective gear. At the conclusion, they were quite ready, willing and prepared for physical, one on one combat. And I don't think there is an excess of concussions from this.

Why couldn't something like that be substituted, given what has been learned about hazards of concussions? Because, quite frankly, I'd hate to have an officer with 'shaken baby syndrome' leading my son into battle if it could at all be avoided.

And just because something has always been done, doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't change with the times. For example, back when this tradition started, women didn't have the right to vote, or join the Service Academies, for that matter. Just saying...

Running and ducking for cover now... lol!

Some would argue that enlisted soldiers living in the barracks together can be more physical than a USMA boxing class.

In my opinion, being in a fight (whether it's a boxing class or backyard brawl) is a valuable lesson that everyone should experience.

 

[Sledge]

The first person quoted in opposition to the boxing is Brenda Sue Fulton, a graduate of USMA 1980 (first class with females) and an Obama appointee to the West Point Board of Visitors. She's been one of the administration's mouthpieces for increasing the number of females at service academies and within the services as a whole.

Should we make males and females compete equally for combat jobs? Or rather eliminate things that might make physical differences glaringly obvious?

And, also, same author that wrote the Pillow Fight article. He's being spoon fed.

 

[Sledge]

Thread title needs changing and moved to Academy News. Will get more views and generate more discussion. JMPO

 

[Kyguardmom]

If you had to bet $100, would you bet on (1) your son being lead by an officer with 'shaken baby syndrome' because this officer had take boxing at SA vs (2) an officer being able to use his or her boxing experience at SA to some good use in a life situation, who would you bet on.

Umm... that is an apples to apples choice. Nor would I take a $100 bet on my son's life.

I would want the best possible and most clear headed leadership for my son. There were quite a few Drill Sergeants at my son's BCT who openly acknowledged they suffered from PTSD incurred from actual combat. I just think it better to avoid self-inflicted, aka boxing, brain injuries in leadership whenever possible, given the responsibility they will someday assume.

And, for the record, I'm NOT suggesting that the SA's don't produce fine leaders. Not at all!

 

[MombaBomba]

The other little nugget they didn't address is the fact that once someone has sustained a concussion, they are more susceptible to them in the future. It would be interesting to find out how many of these boxing concussions were a first time concussion vs. an additional concussion. Also, how many of them already participated in a high concussion sport? They could already be suffering from a minor concussion they didn't realize they had, and then the punch in boxing made it worse and noticeable. To just blame boxing and demand it be removed seems a tad bit hasty.

 

[MombaBomba]

I would want the best possible and most clear headed leadership for my son. There were quite a few Drill Sergeants at my son's BCT who openly acknowledged they suffered from PTSD incurred from actual combat. I just think it better to avoid self-inflicted, aka boxing, brain injuries in leadership whenever possible, given the responsibility they will someday assume.

So if the concussion was sustained during basketball, football or soccer that would be ok? It is only boxing concussions that are the problem? Should we then remove any sport or activity which might result in a concussion?

Boxing concussions are not "self-inflicted." They tend to happen because the other boxer hit harder and faster because one's guard was down.

What does PTSD have to do with boxing class and concussions? I am not seeing the parallel here.

 

[MemberLG]

I just think it better to avoid self-inflicted, aka boxing, brain injuries in leadership whenever possible, given the responsibility they will someday assume.

So other than your personal opinion, any proof that cadets that suffered concussion during boxing classes will have brain injurie(s) that will affect their leadership abilities?

 

[USMAROTCFamily]

Well it seems obvious then that boxing needs to be included in all military training.......ROTC, OCS, and Basic Training. It is a shame that we have so many ill-prepared leaders in our military who have not had the opportunity to be punched in the face.

 

[Sledge]

So now unhappy West Point parents just contact the NYT anonymously and complain and the NYT jumps on it? First the pillow fight, now this.

Would bet good money it's not the parents feeding this to the NYT, but a certain person(s) on the Board of Visitors

 

[Kyguardmom]

'Self-inflicted' might have been a bad choice of phrase. 'Avoidable' is closer to what I was getting at. Concussions are, by definition, a form of brain injury.

If evidence suggests that a concussion sustained during one activity, like football, makes one more vulnerable to sustaining concussions in other sports, like boxing, doesn't that reinforce the argument against boxing in the SAs?

The parallel between PTSD and PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome) is both are to a degree subjective in diagnosis and share many of the same symptoms. The question would be if these symptoms interfere with long-term performance.

And again, for the record, I'm not suggesting SA graduates are ill-prepared leaders. I am suggesting that perhaps concerns about mandatory boxing classes not be dismissed out of hand just because it is a long-held, beloved tradition. I do get that as a perceived threat.

But really, have you seen Muhammad Ali over the last several decades? Bless his heart!

 

[Kanye's Dad's Sock Puppet]

The first person quoted in opposition to the boxing is Brenda Sue Fulton, a graduate of USMA 1980 (first class with females) and an Obama appointee to the West Point Board of Visitors. She's been one of the administration's mouthpieces for increasing the number of females at service academies and within the services as a whole.

Should we make males and females compete equally for combat jobs? Or rather eliminate things that might make physical differences glaringly obvious?

And, also, same author that wrote the Pillow Fight article. He's being spoon fed.

Would bet good money it's not the parents feeding this to the NYT, but a certain person(s) on the Board of Visitors

Alex, I'll take "what is the standard for libel for $100" please.

I doubt anyone would disagree that being in a fight and learning to keep one's nerves in that situation is a good thing, but there is also the the fact that most doing the fighting and even the leading have not taken boxing and then there is this whole concussion thing...

The dinosaurs have left the earth and we don't live in caves anymore. Why the opposition of shining some light in these areas and informed debate?

Kyguardmom raises fair points.

Sledge, granted its USNA and not USMA, but you might want to try reading this book about the experience of those women:

http://www.amazon.com/First-Class-Women-Academy-Bluejacket/dp/1591142164

 

[MemberLG]

I am suggesting that perhaps concerns about mandatory boxing classes not be dismissed out of hand just because it is a long-held, beloved tradition. I do get that as a perceived threat.

What makes you think some of us are defending boxing classes because "it is a long-held, beloved tradition?"

I know my writing skills are bad, but I believe I pointed out and other posters did also that boxing classes serve a geninue purupose in leadership development. When I was a plebe, I hated my boxing class, didn't get get a concussion, but did get a "nasal trauma," and finished the class wearing a cage instead of a normal head gear. I would have loved to not taken the class. But knowing what I know now, I would take the boxing class again

 

[fencersmother]

*WE* may not live in caves, but some of those we may fight do.

I want an officer who is not afraid to stand up to a man (ok, or a woman) who might be bigger, stronger, faster... I want one who, in face to face combat, has learned to use his wits to out-maneuver, out think some hulking giant out to pulverize him.

New York Times... rag of the timid

 

[MemberLG]

Why the opposition of shining some light in these areas and informed debate?

It is not an informed debate when points raised by other side is are ignored and everything goes back to "concussion.".

I am not a spokes person for the "other side," but I don't think anyone advocated that the boxing classes should be continuted for the sake of tradition. Some of us pointed out that the boxing classes are not about just learning how to fight, rather having a unique experience that you cannot be get anywhere else as a part of leadership development experience. All of us acknowledged concussions happen outside boxing.

Some simple solutions are excuse cadets with any history of concussion from boxing class, use better protective head gear, use strict weigh classs restriction, and etc.

Of course, if the agenda is to stop boxing at SA, why mention any practical solutions?

 

[Sledge]

The first person quoted in opposition to the boxing is Brenda Sue Fulton, a graduate of USMA 1980 (first class with females) and an Obama appointee to the West Point Board of Visitors. She's been one of the administration's mouthpieces for increasing the number of females at service academies and within the services as a whole.

Should we make males and females compete equally for combat jobs? Or rather eliminate things that might make physical differences glaringly obvious?

And, also, same author that wrote the Pillow Fight article. He's being spoon fed.

Would bet good money it's not the parents feeding this to the NYT, but a certain person(s) on the Board of Visitors

Alex, I'll take "what is the standard for libel for $100" please.

I doubt anyone would disagree that being in a fight and learning to keep one's nerves in that situation is a good thing, but there is also the the fact that most doing the fighting and even the leading have not taken boxing and then there is this whole concussion thing...

The dinosaurs have left the earth and we don't live in caves anymore. Why the opposition of shining some light in these areas and informed debate?

Kyguardmom raises fair points.

Sledge, granted its USNA and not USMA, but you might want to try reading this book about the experience of those women:

http://www.amazon.com/First-Class-Women-Academy-Bluejacket/dp/1591142164

You seem familiar....

Informed debate - no problem. That includes knowing the one-track agenda of persons putting forth this proposal.

Concussions are not the driving factor here.

 

[Kanye's Dad's Sock Puppet]

New York Times... rag of the timid

Well that's an open mined position to start from.

That includes knowing the one-track agenda of persons putting forth this proposal.

You don't "know" anything. You are assuming and well...

It is not an informed debate when points raised by other side is are ignored and everything goes back to "concussion.".

I am not a spokes person for the "other side," but I don't think anyone advocated that the boxing classes should be continuted for the sake of tradition. Some of us pointed out that the boxing classes are not about just learning how to fight, rather having a unique experience that you cannot be get anywhere else as a part of leadership development experience. All of us acknowledged concussions happen outside boxing.

Some simple solutions are excuse cadets with any history of concussion from boxing class, use better protective head gear, use strict weigh classs restriction, and etc.

Of course, if the agenda is to stop boxing at SA, why mention any practical solutions?

If you took the time to read you might realize I agree. The solutions you suggest may well be warranted. Don't assume I am opposed. I just have little patience for the close minded who want to sweep problems under the rug and beat the same tired old "its the females" drum. I agree its important to teach cadets how to fight and keep their wits about them in a fight. I would argue it should be mandatory for all enlisted as well as officers including ROTC and any officer candidate not passing be separated. But lets find some way to teach that lesson without increasing the risk of concussions or worse, repeated concussions.

 

[Sledge]

Here's a related article. I'm sure the reporter just happened to guess that there might be an executive summary of a meeting between LTG Caslen and the medical folks at The Pentagon. No one "on the inside" tipped him off. No way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us/generals-sought-more-positive-coverage-document-shows.html?_r=0

"Two top Army generals recently discussed trying to kill an article in The New York Times on concussions at West Point by withholding information so the Army could encourage competing news organizations to publish a more favorable story, according to an Army document."

 

[MemberLG]

But lets find some way to teach that lesson without increasing the risk of concussions or worse, repeated concussions.

What do you suggest? Not all problems have solutions. We live in an imperfect world. I am all all "teach[ing] that lesson without increasing the risk of concusission or worse repreated concussions" if it is possible. So from my perspective, there is no substitute for the boxing experience (at Ranger School, during hand to hand combat training, we slapped each other, but having participated in both boxing and Ranger school "slapping," not the same. I can even throw in my IOBC pugil stick competition or getting pushed during a flag football game where my head bounced off the ground, not the same as boxing).

There are ways to reduce concussions from boxing as I suggested on my previous post. But if you read the headline or some posters, the solution is to get rid of boxing PERIOD. Did anyone else suggest ways to reduce concussions during boxing other than me? No, because the agenda by the otherside is to get rid of boxing because they don't like it, regardless what is does for leadership development.

 

[Wilco]

"Some would argue that enlisted soldiers living in the barracks together can be more physical than a USMA boxing class. In my opinion, being in a fight (whether it's a boxing class or backyard brawl) is a valuable lesson that everyone should experience."

Defer to others on boxing debate, I am from different era, but will say Bull is right. I learned in the neighborhood at an early age from stronger kids to not let my mouth write checks my fists couldn't cash.