Plebe Candidate Status revisited?

the problem is that the consequences that the class of 2013 sees are trivial at best. they've got no motivation to care. it's hard as a senior to see so much good leadership potential in your class that is totally worthless due to all the red tape we're strung up in. they've effectively neutered this school. it's a shame.
 
Very interesting thread.

Amazing how 'gung ho' these young men and women are during the application process and how often that changes once they enter a service academy

This thread should be an eye opener to those who are currently applying to any service academy.

Parents also must recognize that once their sons/daughters are sworn in their 'children' are now members of the military.

Calling any service academy to complain on their mids behalf would be equal to a spouse calling their partners workplace to complain. Don't think that happens too much!
 
My son is seriously considering KP, along with USNA and USCGA and NROTC, and I just can't believe that some of the students can get through the whole exhausting process of application, LOR's, CFA, and, especially MOC nominations, and not understand what they are getting into. It seems like every night, my son is either filling out some type of form, writing anoher essay or checking the status of applications online to be sure everything is complete. How can someone get to KP, or any other service academy, and not realize what it was going to entail? How did they explain their desire to attend the Academy to their nominating sources? How did they get a nomination at all? I am bewildered!!
 
Admissions was very clear that this USMMA is a service academy and that the mids were part of the Navy Reserve. That by definition means regiment. I actually believe they need more (my bias). I know I do not want my DS on a ship with someone who does not seem to care. There is much to much at stake. Standards should never be lowered to adapt to lack of motivation or drive. Mediocity is not the acceptable norn nor should it be. If the plebes are not giving their all, find out why, support them, fix it or get them out and let others in.
Parents it is the kids decision to do what they need to do not ours. Sorry if I rambled but we either are a Service Academy (emphsis on SERVICE) or not.
The plebes should also remember ACTA Non Verba...their actions not their parents.
 
USNA1982BGO said:
Parents also must recognize that once their sons/daughters are sworn in their 'children' are now members of the military.
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Not at USMMA/Kings Point. Mids at KP are not in the military, nor are they subject to the UCMJ as they are at the other academies.
 
fairwinds said:
My son is seriously considering KP, along with USNA and USCGA and NROTC, and I just can't believe that some of the students can get through the whole exhausting process of application, LOR's, CFA, and, especially MOC nominations, and not understand what they are getting into. It seems like every night, my son is either filling out some type of form, writing anoher essay or checking the status of applications online to be sure everything is complete. How can someone get to KP, or any other service academy, and not realize what it was going to entail? How did they explain their desire to attend the Academy to their nominating sources? How did they get a nomination at all? I am bewildered!!
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Maybe their parents were the driving force; and they had great coaches for the interviews!!
 
2013Parent said:
Unfortunately KP is not a military academy.
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Luigi59 said:
Not at USMMA/Kings Point. Mids at KP are not in the military, nor are they subject to the UCMJ as they are at the other academies.
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Well, that is funny because I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and I carry a Military ID in my wallet like every other MIDN here. I guess that secret clearance I had to apply for plebe year was also not military related. This is also news to the Academy I presume, since it refers to itself as a Military Academy multiple times on its own web page.

And by the way, after two minutes of searching google I found the book definition and parameters of the UCMJ. Here is an excerpt:

"Cadets and midshipmen at the United States Military Academy, United States Naval Academy, United States Air Force Academy, United States Merchant Marine Academy, and United States Coast Guard Academy are also subject to the UCMJ. On the other hand, Reserve Officers' Training Corps(ROTC) cadets and midshipmen are by law exempt from the UCMJ (even while on active duty for training such as CTLT, LTC, LDAC, or while attending various training schools such as Airborne School, Air Assault School, Mountain Warfare School)"



USMMA IS a maritime school FIRST. But there is a military component to it nevertheless.
 
KPmid719 said:
And by the way, after two minutes of searching google I found the book definition and parameters of the UCMJ. Here is an excerpt:

"Cadets and midshipmen at the United States Military Academy, United States Naval Academy, United States Air Force Academy, United States Merchant Marine Academy, and United States Coast Guard Academy are also subject to the UCMJ. On the other hand, Reserve Officers' Training Corps(ROTC) cadets and midshipmen are by law exempt from the UCMJ (even while on active duty for training such as CTLT, LTC, LDAC, or while attending various training schools such as Airborne School, Air Assault School, Mountain Warfare School)"
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This is the same quote that comes from wikipedia which should not be used as a primary source.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm

801. ART. 1. DEFINITIONS
(6) "Cadet" means a cadet of the United States Military Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, or the United States Coast Guard Academy.
(7) "Midshipman" means a midshipman of the United States Naval Academy and any other midshipman on active duty in the naval service.


802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER
2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.
(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.
----------------------------------

So, as I have always been told the UCMJ does not apply to midshipen at USMMA because they are not on active duty. They would be subject to it during any navy cruises, etc.

You could potentially construe (3) to apply, but I would doubt it.


Mids at KP ARE part of the military though: they are a Midshipman, USNR.
 
I find this entire string very interesting in regards to the purported lack of motivation and demonstrated leadership by the Class of 2013. After 28 active duty years in the Navy and still serving, including a 4 year tour at the Naval Academy (not as a midshipman), I am always amazed at how the old salts view the newbies. And in this case, upperclassmen at USMMA qualify as old salts.

So, let's see if I can impart some light on this situation. The new class of Plebes always has a steep learning curve. Much to the chagrin of the upperclassmen and academy officers. The complaints are common and are the same year after year: "no motivation", "don't really want to be here", "complain all the time", "complain about everything", "lack of leadership", etc. etc. The list is very long and not unique to any one class.

In about another month, the make-up of the Class of 2013 is going to change. The trimester ends in 3 weeks and some plebes won't be back for second trimester. This scenario will repeat again after the next trimester. By the end of the first year, a large number of plebes that showed up on 9 July won't be around. Why not? Because they are the ones that aren't motivated to be there; they fail classes; came for the free education, but not the lifestyle, etc., etc. This is a big part of the reason why USMMA starts about 300 and graduates around 180.

By next year, Class of 2013 will be a smaller, more motivated, better disciplined, saltier group. Because all of the low and mid-level performers that don't want to be there are gone and the remaining classmembers will not only accomplish more with less, but do it better. This is part of what plebe year is all about. It helps define the character of the individual and the class, so that when our DS/DD are out at sea on a ship, we don't have to worry about them being with someone who doesn't care. Because that non-caring, non-motivated individual has already quit and went home to community college.

If you could look into a crystal ball and see the future, you'll see the Class of 2013 as seniors at USMMA complaining about the Class of 2016; that new group of plebes that has no motivation, lacks leadership potential and can't do anything right, etc. etc. And the cycle repeats next year....
 
This happens every year about this time. The Plebes are frustrated and beginning to wonder if they made the right choice. The upperclassmen are frustrated with the lack of progress and cohesion in the Plebe class and everyone is stressed out as the end of the trimester approaches. This pattern will repeat itself in spring as the Plebes begin to think themselves worthy of recognition while the upper classes say "not so fast." I have to say that the criticism seems a little more virulent this year. It does seem that there is a problem within the regiment regarding enforcement of rules and traditions and the plebes seem to be taking advantage. I hope it works itself out. This is a fine school with fine traditions and a great history. Cheer up is2day in a few weeks many of the malcontents will have washed out. Hopefully, the ones left behind will be more focused. In any case......255 Days!
 
KPmid719 said:
Well, that is funny because I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and I carry a Military ID in my wallet like every other MIDN here. I guess that secret clearance I had to apply for plebe year was also not military related. This is also news to the Academy I presume, since it refers to itself as a Military Academy multiple times on its own web page.
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Chapter 47, of 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II. Article 2 defines the persons subject to the UCMJ.

Chapter 47, of 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II. Article 1 defines cadets and midshipmen as:

(6) The term “cadet” means a cadet of the United States Military Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, or the United States Coast Guard Academy.

(7) The term “midshipman” means a midshipman of the United States Naval Academy and any other midshipman on active duty in the naval service.

(8) The term “military” refers to any or all of the armed forces.

USMMA Midshipmen fall under the UCMJ only when assigned to active duty. Officer candidates at USNA, USMA, USCGA, and USAFA are always subject to the UCMJ.
 
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Ok, so under your logic, are reserve personnel not in the military?
 
KPmid719 said:
Ok, so under your logic, are reserve personnel not in the military?
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You only need to research any case of criminal activity at KP involving a USMMA midshipman - where was it prosecuted? In a court martial / military trial, or in civilian court?

Take a moment and read the following transcript of two 2nd class USMMA midshipman accused of sexual assault on the grounds of Kings Point, and notice WHERE and WHO is trying the case.

318 F.3d 401
UNITED STATES of America, Appellee,
v.
Francis CROWLEY, Defendant-Appellant.
Docket No. 02-1381.
United States Court of Appeals, Second Circuit.

Argued: September 18, 2002.
Decided: January 31, 2003.

If these two USMMA midshipmen were "in the military" wouldn't they be tried under the UCMJ and not in a civilian court?
 
Luigi:

I think KPMID719 is referring to your statement that USMMA Mid's are "not in the military" which is incorrect. Just because the UCMJ does not apply does not mean they aren't in the military.

USMMA mid's are very much part of the military, they are part of the US Navy Reserve.

Now, if you want to try to say reservists aren't part of the military then you are more than welcome to take that stance; however, you would be mistaken.
 
kp2001 said:
Luigi:

I think KPMID719 is referring to your statement that USMMA Mid's are "not in the military" which is incorrect.
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My statement should have been "They are not in the active duty military" as are all the cadets and midshipmen at the other 4 military academies.

If they were, they would:

  • be subject to the UCMJ, as is everyone at the other 4 military academies,
  • be paid, as is everyone at the other 4 military academies,
  • be covered under the military's health care system, as is everyone at the other 4 military academies.
Sorry to continue the "off-topic" discussion.

Back to Topic.

:cool:
 
Not active duty. Just the only academy to have the right (unfortunately) to fly the Battle Standard.
 
Luigi59 said:
Never in question. :confused: Is anyone disputing that? :confused:
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People are simply reacting to your statement that KP mids are not military.

Unfortunately you initially left off the two words you added later "active duty" which makes the statement correct.


I was a bit miffed at first as well, but appears you meant something completely different then how it came off at first.
 
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