POCR(re-des), what should I put first?

[U$NA2019]

I am going to a POCR board after a med DQ from subs. I did have operational sub(through school and on boat) experience so plan to use this to my advantage when I get out. What designator will be the most beneficial for when i hit the civilian sector? I have two years in that designator before I get out. Current choices are HR, CW, INTEL.

Current plan is to get out at the end of my minimum service requirement so determining which will set me up best for life on the outside.

 

[USNA_STEM_Prof]

Edit: Darn! I glossed over your intention to get out. Civilian HR =/= Navy HR, so if you're dead set on being a civilian, I'd advise against HR personally. If you think you may stay in and go HR, keep reading.

Former enlisted nuke, 8 year SWO(N), 9 year HR, now PMP here. I could write a dissertation on POCR, HR, and more. If you want to DM me, feel free, but here are some thoughts (my own of course):

- Does being the mastermind capable of moving billets, shaping accession decisions, structuring high level N1 policy, working N8 projects, and truly understanding the Navy's backend systems appeal to you? If yes, then HR may be a good choice. I was astonished at the influence I had as a senior LCDR / junior CDR at my HR role in the pentagon. I could make magic happen from an N1 perspective. Yes, I wasn't launching missiles or running reactors, but that tedious backend Navy systems stuff that no one likes -- I was worth my weight in gold. It isn't glamorous, but it's important.

- While my analytical skill sets put me in the N1 lane, HRs also exhibit tremendous ownership over the N6 and N8 pathways. Additionally, while an N1 function, I think of recruiting as separate in my mind and recruiting command is largely an HR endeavor.

- Command opportunities don't have the glory of a submarine or DDG, but NRC, NTAG, MEPS, RTC, and OTC are all HR command opportunities. My CO tour was phenomenal and I had the full gamut of experiences: sailors in hospitals for wonderful (childbirth) and tragic reasons, Captain's Cup events, NJP, and everything else.

However, the HR community does carry a weird stigma, some of it fair, some unfair IMO.

As a newer community, the Navy's HR cadre is still finding its footing and fighting to prove itself. The original cohort of Navy HRs in the early 2000s were the "GURLS" -- General Unrestricted Line Officers, who also happened to be predominantly women. These women, facing stigma for a lack of warfare experience (ironically, having not been given the opportunity to earn pins) as well as sexism, forged through it all to help shape the HR community into a valued cadre of manpower, IT, FM, and analytical experts today. However, wounds still linger.

Whether an unfortunate med DQ such as yourself or someone who just lacked the talent, the HR community does consist of many diverted career paths. Moreover, HR receives a lot of application traffic from fleet officers wanting an easier quality of life but I always caution against easy in this case. Yes, deployments are very rare, duty rare as well, but the jobs are still complete grinds and often more thankless in many ways because they lack excitement and/or glory of operations. Thus, while every community has rockstars and slackers, the polarity of those extremes, especially toward the slacker side, is higher with HR in my opinion. There are complete superstars, warfare pins and those without alike, but also some egregious knuckleheads. Sadly, the latter contribute to the stigma I see HRs battle today.

Conclusion: If you opt to go HR you'll have wonderful opportunities, be able to have massive influence, but also battle some unfair external prejudices as you prove yourself.

Bonus: As a nuke you have the aptitude to be a Postgraduate School Operations Research student. Do it. That's #1 on the HR promotion board convening orders each year. I found it to be harder than nuke school, but so very worth it.

 

[U$NA2019]

Edit: Darn! I glossed over your intention to get out. Civilian HR =/= Navy HR, so if you're dead set on being a civilian, I'd advise against HR personally. If you think you may stay in and go HR, keep reading.

Former enlisted nuke, 8 year SWO(N), 9 year HR, now PMP here. I could write a dissertation on POCR, HR, and more. If you want to DM me, feel free, but here are some thoughts (my own of course):

- Does being the mastermind capable of moving billets, shaping accession decisions, structuring high level N1 policy, working N8 projects, and truly understanding the Navy's backend systems appeal to you? If yes, then HR may be a good choice. I was astonished at the influence I had as a senior LCDR / junior CDR at my HR role in the pentagon. I could make magic happen from an N1 perspective. Yes, I wasn't launching missiles or running reactors, but that tedious backend Navy systems stuff that no one likes -- I was worth my weight in gold. It isn't glamorous, but it's important.

- While my analytical skill sets put me in the N1 lane, HRs also exhibit tremendous ownership over the N6 and N8 pathways. Additionally, while an N1 function, I think of recruiting as separate in my mind and recruiting command is largely an HR endeavor.

- Command opportunities don't have the glory of a submarine or DDG, but NRC, NTAG, MEPS, RTC, and OTC are all HR command opportunities. My CO tour was phenomenal and I had the full gamut of experiences: sailors in hospitals for wonderful (childbirth) and tragic reasons, Captain's Cup events, NJP, and everything else.

However, the HR community does carry a weird stigma, some of it fair, some unfair IMO.

As a newer community, the Navy's HR cadre is still finding its footing and fighting to prove itself. The original cohort of Navy HRs in the early 2000s were the "GURLS" -- General Unrestricted Line Officers, who also happened to be predominantly women. These women, facing stigma for a lack of warfare experience (ironically, having not been given the opportunity to earn pins) as well as sexism, forged through it all to help shape the HR community into a valued cadre of manpower, IT, FM, and analytical experts today. However, wounds still linger.

Whether an unfortunate med DQ such as yourself or someone who just lacked the talent, the HR community does consist of many diverted career paths. Moreover, HR receives a lot of application traffic from fleet officers wanting an easier quality of life but I always caution against easy in this case. Yes, deployments are very rare, duty rare as well, but the jobs are still complete grinds and often more thankless in many ways because they lack excitement and/or glory of operations. Thus, while every community has rockstars and slackers, the polarity of those extremes, especially toward the slacker side, is higher with HR in my opinion. There are complete superstars, warfare pins and those without alike, but also some egregious knuckleheads. Sadly, the latter contribute to the stigma I see HRs battle today.

Conclusion: If you opt to go HR you'll have wonderful opportunities, be able to have massive influence, but also battle some unfair external prejudices as you prove yourself.

Bonus: As a nuke you have the aptitude to be a Postgraduate School Operations Research student. Do it. That's #1 on the HR promotion board convening orders each year. I found it to be harder than nuke school, but so very worth it.

Thank you for this lengthy, well thought-out reply. HR stills has the reputation and I'm hesitant to put it first, although would be a great lifestyle, I want a warfare device.

My main question was getting at, as I plan to get out and settle down somewhere(the moving isn't attractive to me) what will set me up best for life outside the military? INTEL, CW, HR

I plan to go into the financial sector, software, or consulting. I understand there are financial management billets within HR but there are some billets that wont do much for my future.

 

[OldRetSWO]

I am going to a POCR board after a med DQ from subs. I did have operational sub(through school and on boat) experience so plan to use this to my advantage when I get out. What designator will be the most beneficial for when i hit the civilian sector? I have two years in that designator before I get out. Current choices are HR, CW, INTEL.

Current plan is to get out at the end of my minimum service requirement so determining which will set me up best for life on the outside.

Both CW and Intel can set you up for some very interesting careers when you take off the uniform. Many companies do a lot of business in that world and they tend to want folks who have served and have the appropriate tickets.
Although I did not serve in those designators, I worked for other divisions/segments of some of those companies and could see how the hiring went.

 

[USNA_STEM_Prof]

what will set me up best for life outside the military? INTEL, CW, HR

This is so subjective it's hard to answer. What's your undergrad degree? Financial sector is so broad that any of the communities could set you up. Software...development? Sales? You see how broad those are. An HR ORSA like I was can write code like a champ but an HR FM type doesn't know what I mean when I say recursive algorithm.

However, since you say you want a warfare device then Intel and CW it is, though that's an area fairly outside my experience so I'm reluctant to speak to the advantages/disadvantages.

 

[nuensis]

If you want to settle down, CW is a pretty good guarantee you will not go to "sea duty," but also pretty good chance you won't be able to leave at exactly 2 years. Initial qualification tour at one of the NIOCs co-located with HQ or main Cryptologic Centers (HI, MD, TX, GA) is required, and the tour is supposed to last 3 years. You don't get to walk out the door at the end of your service commitment, you ask nicely for the Navy to let you leave. Generally isn't an issue, but the Navy reserves the right to keep you for the full duration of your orders.

The first tour is meant to be SIGINT-focused, but you could end up somewhere else (in classic Navy fashion). No guarantee you will not end up still going to sea on direct support TDY (depending on whether you would still be medically qualified for aviation or surface).

Bread and butter for cryptologists is SIGINT, cyberspace operations, and electronic warfare; plenty of stuff online about what that means (and more elsewhere if you have access). Whether or not you want to do that kind of stuff in your civilian career is up to your own personal preference.

Try to find a CW officer to talk to if you can. Check the other boats on the waterfront. If you're on a base with surface ships, there's one on almost every ship. If all else fails, part of the responsibility of the Officer Community Manager for any community is to provide this kind of advice--https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Career-Management/Community-Management/Officer/Active-OCM/Restricted-Line/Cryptologic-Warfare/

I don't know too much about Intel, but I do know your Squadron should have an N2 Intel officer you can talk to.

 

[usna1985]

In my day (long time ago), Intel set you up for two main types of jobs. One was being a civilian intel analyst -- working as a GS-whatever at DIA, CIA, NSA, etc. MOST of those billets are in the DC area, so keep that in mind. The other option was going to a "beltway bandit" like SAIC. In my experience, most who did that weren't super happy b/c the jobs weren't as interesting.

Now, Intel is more about cyber and related stuff, so might be more helpful on the outside if you want to do that.

Keep in mind that the main reason a company will hire you is b/c of your education and general life as an officer. Most companies figure they can train you do to what they do. B/c officers typically have attention to detail, dedication to work, etc., you see a lot of former officers in highly regulated industries, such as pharma and medical devices. Some become consultants. Some go to law school, some to med or dental school. Some become ministers or priests. Some are realtors. And on and on.

Bottom line is that you should do what you want to do for the rest of your time in the USN. Consider getting an advanced degree. THEN figure out what you want to do next, but don't limit yourself to exactly what you're doing in the USN.

I strongly recommend you look at the SACC sponsored by USNA. Lots of major companies actively recruit there -- in a wide variety of fields. And most of them don't require that you've done whatever they do while you're in the military.

 

[navypilot555]

This is so subjective it's hard to answer. What's your undergrad degree? Financial sector is so broad that any of the communities could set you up. Software...development? Sales? You see how broad those are. An HR ORSA like I was can write code like a champ but an HR FM type doesn't know what I mean when I say recursive algorithm.

However, since you say you want a warfare device then Intel and CW it is, though that's an area fairly outside my experience so I'm reluctant to speak to the advantages/disadvantages.

Hi @USNA_STEM_Prof
following up here to bypass the character limit. Working on trying to get my DM enabled, will also message you then.

 

[Kierkegaard]

I don’t have anywhere near the experience of the above repliers but my initial reaction is that the “best” life on the outside is subjective—When you get out are you looking for work-life balance, the highest salary, the most job satisfaction, are you looking at breaking into a certain industry, and whatnot. I would think that given your current background and aptitudes you could transition to a successful civilian career from any of those designators. Is there a particular designator you think you’d enjoy the most?

Edit: Whoops, just saw this is an old thread. I stand by my point that folks should pick the field they enjoy the most—I think the rest will fall into place!

 

[USNA_STEM_Prof]

Hi @USNA_STEM_Prof
following up here to bypass the character limit. Working on trying to get my DM enabled, will also message you then.

Here's what I'd originally typed up and a little more.
As always, it depends on many factors. Since this individual is winged, POCR is possible but they may be headed for a normal lat transfer board as well. From the POCR website:

"Probationary officers may be referred to a Probationary Officer Continuation and Redesignation (POCR) Board if initial training is not completed, required qualifications are not obtained or are unable to complete initial operational assignments."

Sounds like the final item, unable to complete initial operational assignments, is where they're at. That said, my experience is that POCR is typically used for more junior individuals and normal lat transfer is the likely scenario IMO.

If they want to stay active, being their biggest advocate is my number one piece of advice. As for what community they'll head to -- it depends on which they want, how competitive they are, and how many people the various communities are seeking.

Each community has aggregate OPA which is divided out across PGs. Redesignation is used to fill gaps where they exist. Sometimes a given YG will be overmanned and there will be no redesignation options for a LT in that YG, yet a LT in another will have a great shot.

Lastly, the other scenario is transfer to the reserves. Not uncommon and from there it's a matter of managing an RC career, which is an entirely separate essay. I went AC enlisted --> AC Officer --> RC Officer --> RC Officer on orders --> TAR Officer (permanently on orders RC Officer) --> AC Officer. I know I'm the outlier but I bring that up as proof that the system can be flexible, though it isn't prone to flex naturally.

 

[navypilot555]

Here's what I'd originally typed up and a little more.
As always, it depends on many factors. Since this individual is winged, POCR is possible but they may be headed for a normal lat transfer board as well. From the POCR website:

"Probationary officers may be referred to a Probationary Officer Continuation and Redesignation (POCR) Board if initial training is not completed, required qualifications are not obtained or are unable to complete initial operational assignments."

Sounds like the final item, unable to complete initial operational assignments, is where they're at. That said, my experience is that POCR is typically used for more junior individuals and normal lat transfer is the likely scenario IMO.

If they want to stay active, being their biggest advocate is my number one piece of advice. As for what community they'll head to -- it depends on which they want, how competitive they are, and how many people the various communities are seeking.

Each community has aggregate OPA which is divided out across PGs. Redesignation is used to fill gaps where they exist. Sometimes a given YG will be overmanned and there will be no redesignation options for a LT in that YG, yet a LT in another will have a great shot.

Lastly, the other scenario is transfer to the reserves. Not uncommon and from there it's a matter of managing an RC career, which is an entirely separate essay. I went AC enlisted --> AC Officer --> RC Officer --> RC Officer on orders --> TAR Officer (permanently on orders RC Officer) --> AC Officer. I know I'm the outlier but I bring that up as proof that the system can be flexible, though it isn't prone to flex naturally.

Got it. Did not know it is possible to go reserves since at this stage still fulfilling USNA service obligation as well as winging MSR?
If Lat transfering, is it possible to not get picked up by anyone - and stuck in 130x designator? What would that mean and what would they do for work?

 

[USNA_STEM_Prof]

Got it. Did not know it is possible to go reserves since at this stage still fulfilling USNA service obligation as well as winging MSR?
If Lat transfering, is it possible to not get picked up by anyone - and stuck in 130x designator? What would that mean and what would they do for work?

One of my best friends, an F/A-18 guy, had the exact same thing happen (medically DQ'd shortly after wings). He went reserves and now is a 1207.

Yes, it is possible to not get picked up (POCR or Lat Transfer) because it depends on needs and wants. They're too senior for SWO, the IDC designators are frequently full, and HR is hit and miss with what it needs. Maybe supply? But again, there are many factors beyond the basic "I want this community." In the case of non-selection they'd be forced to the reserves and become a 1305 I suspect, whether drilling or IRR.

 

[navypilot555]

One of my best friends, an F/A-18 guy, had the exact same thing happen (medically DQ'd shortly after wings). He went reserves and now is a 1207.

Yes, it is possible to not get picked up (POCR or Lat Transfer) because it depends on needs and wants. They're too senior for SWO, the IDC designators are frequently full, and HR is hit and miss with what it needs. Maybe supply? But again, there are many factors beyond the basic "I want this community." In the case of non-selection they'd be forced to the reserves and become a 1305 I suspect, whether drilling or IRR.

Would you say its possible to just be detailed to a aviation shore tour? I have a feeling that may not be possible because the community would want you out - even though it would make sense and be fitting for a pilot who can no longer fly (tons of non flying shore tours).

 

[nuensis]

the IDC designators are frequently full

Intel and METOC are frequently full. The rest are not, but year group matters.

Check out the lateral transfer LOI and board precept. Lateral transfer is not necessarily the same as POCR, but those give some indicators of what communities are looking for.

Status

For example, when a community is accepting in-quotas for a year group range of 20 years (i.e. available quotas for all paygrades O1-O5) and at the same time refusing any out-quotas, that might be a good indicator that they want more people. And then look at the precept for number of quotas available.

...I'm saying if you want to be an 1820, there's a good shot you can be.

 

[USNA_STEM_Prof]

Would you say its possible to just be detailed to a aviation shore tour? I have a feeling that may not be possible because the community would want you out - even though it would make sense and be fitting for a pilot who can no longer fly (tons of non flying shore tours).

Possible but unlikely IMO. The shore tours are an R&R opportunity for those going through an aviation career before their next operational tour. Without a future of flying ahead, the shore tour is essentially a dead end.

 

[Capt MJ]

Just some general comments, keeping in mind the needs of the Navy wil drive any decision, and those needs can change from one year to the next or one quarter of the fiscal year from another. The Navy has a lot of leeway to find various solutions.

Of course, lateral transfer into another community and an opportunity to continue a career is always desirable, but endstrength and capacity are very real things - as in, is there room in the other community. And, is the officer a suitable fit for another community, who can quickly get into the new career path and become promotable. All officer communities have career paths with milestones and career objectives that grow their professional skill in required competencies in the community. That’s why lateral transfer windows are usually set for lower pay grades. If a LCDR dentist decides they now want to become a LCDR doctor, they can’t just crosswalk over and magically have the skills of the MD. That’s an hyperbolic example just for effect, to demonstrate that switching designators into another community has to be thought out. We had a USNA sponsor alumnus who was sadly med DQ’ed from flying for recurrent migraines. Top-performing JO, was a top 10% grad and aero major. After wise heads got together, they were sent to NPS for the appropriate M.S., then went to a METOC. Pilot insights were much valued. Eventually deployed in a carrier in “weather-guesser” role and has thrived. Fortunately, there was room in that community for an officer of that year group, and strong performance sealed the deal.

An aviator who can no longer serve in a designated 13XX billet (all jobs are assigned an officer designator that can fill it, so an aviation billet will be either specifically marked for either 1310 pilot or 1320 NFO or either, hence XX), will not be allowed to use up a billet on shore duty meant for an aviator rolling off sea/operational duty. If lateral transfer is not on the table, they will be assigned to a 1XXX billet, any line officer billet, ashore. They will not be promotable, because they cannot progress in their original warfare community. If they have time left on ADSO or are close to retirement as an O-4 (typically within 2 years of 20 years), the Navy may well send them to one of those any kind of officer billets. Could be Assistant Operations officer at a Navy Region command, assigned to handle foreign ship visits, the burial at sea program coordination, Tiger Cruise coordination and other general shore Ops duties. The reason I can mention that so specifically, is I was N3 (Operations Officer) at a Navy Region, and I had a “de-winged” () 1300 aviator assigned to a 1XXX billet for a LT, and that was his job. Boxes of cremains would arrive at his office, and he would properly store them while he coordinated with ship squadrons to assign burial at sea duties during routine at sea periods. The needs of the Navy were being met by a competent officer that did not require specific warfare skills, and he was able to complete his required service time and organize his exit plan. I coached and mentored him as fully as I did any other officer working for me, because it’s pretty awful when your 1310 pilot designator is removed because of airmanship performance issues, and you are poopcanned to some shore staff doing non-flying things to work out your time. I kept him engaged (and yes, I could not afford any negligence in any of the programs he was coordinating), supported him as best I could by giving him flexible hours so he could work on some IT certifications on his own dime. To his credit, he performed professionally to the end and no matter what, served honorably, separated and had VA benefits.

It all comes down to needs of the Navy at any given moment and what potential the officer has.