Pregnancy thread

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Maximus said:
I'll give you that, no mention of wrong doing in being pregnant at the Academy. lol

BTW, that sounds like the Bill Clinton questioning the definition of "is" :shake:
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It sure seemed like there was a significant degree of bashing this Midshipman (honor/integrity) in the original thread. Being accused of that kind of violation at any Academy is a humongous ordeal, and if I have to get into the nitty gritty semantics of the regulations I believe it is completely necessary.


On another note, I also distinctly remember Maximus saying in the previous thread that a male in the same situation should not be granted a waiver. Thus, we all should really stop the accusations of sexism and the "what if's" about a member of the other sex being in the same situation.
 
Concur ceasing the sexism claims.

I assume there was quite a few grumblings at the Naval Academy with this one, across the brigade and in the fleet. I can't imagine the conversation in the wardroom of the ship she's headed to (assuming they were getting a certain number of JOs and finding out one would be there at a much later date.)
 
Man you people have lost it (not you tpg). I threw the sexism card first, and I'd do it again. Not calling any of you sexist, just saying that the coverage and discussion that I have demonstrated some underlying double standards. JAM put it a bit more explicitly for me, but you know I guess she has some sort of man-hating agenda. Which has something to do with her having a daughter. Honestly didn't really follow all of that.

Anyhow, conclusion: I'm the "man-basher," everyone hate me.
 
SteveHolt243 said:
Anyhow, conclusion: I'm the "man-basher," everyone hate me.
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Steve, don’t be too hard on yourself. Many agree with you. They are just all not so vocal. And those here you are targeting just cannot face facts.

First off, we have those who say women who get pregnant are not carrying their load, are not doing their job. I am most positive that if a Rhodes Scholar showed up at at his first command, the commanding officer would sit down and work with him to catch up, not tell him his career is over. Same for number one in the class who is in a horrific accident the night of graduation and spends a year in rehab. The Navy needs women. They are not a social experience. They come to the fleet with greater qualifications than their male counterpart. Absent a draft or a huge salary increase, the quality of our enlisted corps would decrease drastically. Not to be degrading, but we would have personnel now manning the more menial ratings performing much more critical jobs, perhaps life dependent tasks, working on ejection seats instead of mess cooking.

Accidents happen. I would bet money that this was not a planned pregnancy. If we demonstrate to a female that her career is over the minute she becomes accidentially pregnant during her first command, what kind of signal is that sending to the new potentially recruited female? What will that do to the quality of the female officer corp? Scary to think about.

And yes, Steve, you are correct in your initial assessment that it is sexist. As you mids and recent grads have so painstakingly attempted to unsuccessfully point out to these few, the sole regulation is totally gender neutral and the true issue is responsibility, not pregnancy. There are those who insist the true issue is pregnancy. There are those who insist women cannot do the job because they do get pregnant. There are those who say a woman who might become accidentally pregnant has no place in the military. They are all sexist. The only way I know to be guaranteed not to be pregnant is to abstain. Could you imagine what our officer corps would be like if everyone had to basically take a vow of celibacy to be a part of it? Scary, huh?
 
SteveHolt, you should probably look back at her comments if the "man bashing" isn't quite evident, and I'm only talking about this thread or even about the pregnancy issue.

I like the conclusion though. At least you didn't bring race into it....we could expect this thread to explode if that happened, as it did on another thread.
 
mombee said:
They come to the fleet with greater qualifications than their male counterpart.
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Judge Sotomayor.....is that you?




The TRUTH is that this is an issue, and I'm talking pregnancy, not just at USNA, which has been discussed about very recently....and it IS a concern for commands. Your Rhodes Scholar comment is short cited, as it is not the gift that keeps on giving, and you can leave a diploma at home while you are underway for 6 months without feeding it.

I do wonder if she had already received her unit assignment before she found out and how this affected it.

Of course, I don't want to question anything SteveHolt, Mombee, or JAM say that has to do with someone's personal actions, whether it be for the good of all or that one person.

As I already said, she will fulfill her obligations to the U.S. taxpayer. Do you think USNA regs are the way they are because they are okay with pregnant midshipmen or because they don't want midshipmen having abortions so they can stay in?
 
tpg said:
Good judgment comes from experience
Unfortunately, a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Great thought, tpg. Just think, if leadership simply involved the 'black and white' application of rules and regulations, it would be easy. It would not be necessary for our 'best and brightest' to spend four years of training just to reach the position that they can start practicing to be good leaders.

To assume that the leadership at the Academy made a bad decision without having 99% of the facts is just totally irresponsible.
 
mombee said:
To assume that the leadership at the Academy made a bad decision without having 99% of the facts is just totally irresponsible.
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To assume that decisions are made on with 99% of the facts is.....more along the lines of a board meeting at a business than the military.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Judge Sotomayor.....is that you?

The TRUTH is that this is an issue

you can leave a diploma at home while you are underway for 6 months without feeding it.
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Women enlistees require higher ASVABs and receive less education, conduct, etc waivers.

It is the future of the Navy and is not an issue. However, it may be a challenge. Those who will be successful will be those who proactively learn to deal with it, not those who bash their inability to 'carry their load' when pregnant.

Don't know if you are married or not, but the father in most cases in modern marriage shares equal feeding responsibility. You are pushing closer and closer to a vow of celibacy being required of everyone in the military, both male and female.

Those who view it as an issue, not a challenge with a solution are doing no one a favor, especially those young females coming to this site for advice on a military career.
 
I'm not against females being pregnant in the military, I am against females arriving pregnant to the military. That first year is HUGE for developing, especially in the sea services. She does the entire ship a disservice at that point.

Down the road, sure, have a baby, have as many as you'd like, but don't arrive to your first unit behind the eight ball because of a decision YOU made.
 
Folks - this is the one shot across the bows that I am going to fire and then I'm sinking this boat and a couple of the posters are likely to get wounded in the process.
If you wish to reasonably discuss the implications of a Mid getting a waiver for pregnancy - fine. It's a reaonable and timely topic with plenty of room for informed discussion on both sides of the issue.
If you want to discuss the role to include strengths and weaknesses of women in the service- that's ok too although it seems like a somewhat dated argument that's been pretty much long ago resolved and the conversation is not the most timely topic-you might as well be posting about President Roosevelt's decision to abandon the gold standard.

A couple of you deliberately introduced a whole different dimension to this equation with personal attacks. Don't make any more. Either you are reasonable and respectful of different opinions and are willing to listen to those and refute them with pertinent arguments not about the other poster- or this thread will close and you will be reading a PM from me on why you have been penalized.
 
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LineInTheSand said:
I'm not against females being pregnant in the military, I am against females arriving pregnant to the military. That first year is HUGE for developing, especially in the sea services. She does the entire ship a disservice at that point.

Down the road, sure, have a baby, have as many as you'd like, but don't arrive to your first unit behind the eight ball because of a decision YOU made.
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What I read here is that a female recent graduate who accidentally got pregnant on her honeymoon prior to reporting to her first duty station has placed herself in an almost untenable position. Not only will she received deserved hostility from her fellow officers, leadership has no obligation to help her gain 'lost' ground and DoN has no obligation to take this into account on future promotion boards, and may actually see it as a detrimental mark to her record.
 
mombee said:
What I read here is that a female recent graduate who accidentally got pregnant on her honeymoon prior to reporting to her first duty station has placed herself in an almost untenable position. Not only will she received deserved hostility from her fellow officers, leadership has no obligation to help her gain 'lost' ground and DoN has no obligation to take this into account on future promotion boards, and may actually see it as a detrimental mark to her record.
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And that is why so many people wait for a good time in their career to start a family.
 
I remember when Bullet was deploying forward from Kuwait to the green zone an AF capt came to him and said, I can't go I just found out I am pregnant. This was days before she was suppose to go. She arrived in Kuwait not pregnant, but she also arrived with her husband. She stayed behind as they scrambled to find someone to fill her position. Needless to say the replacement was less than thrilled.
 
Not only will she received deserved hostility from her fellow officers, leadership has no obligation to help her gain 'lost' ground and DoN has no obligation to take this into account on future promotion boards, and may actually see it as a detrimental mark to her record.
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Goodness. Are you saying that if said female officer doesn't have an abortion due to an unintended pregnancy her career will forever be affected?

What if a young officer is in an automobile accident and needs many months to recover - for the sake of argument, some broken bones, casts and physical therapy. It's a long haul but in a year or so is in great shape.
Will said officer also suffer from "deserved hostility" from fellow officers and leadership?
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Goodness. Are you saying that if said female officer doesn't have an abortion due to an unintended pregnancy her career will forever be affected?

What if a young officer is in an automobile accident and needs many months to recover - for the sake of argument, some broken bones, casts and physical therapy. It's a long haul but in a year or so is in great shape.
Will said officer also suffer from "deserved hostility" from fellow officers and leadership?
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Ask your daughter when she gets in the real Army about that kind of question. She'll be able to answer pretty quickly what fellow soldiers think of sandbags.

Getting pregnant isn't an accident, she knew what she was doing, whether she wanted a baby or not out of the action, there certainly isn't a college student out there that doesn't understand those risks. Difference is, she knows what she'll be doing for the next 5 years.

Mombee paints a pretty bad picture....it's not THAT bad, but it's not quite "hitting the ground running" and isn't the best first impression during transfer season.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Getting pregnant isn't an accident...
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Sometimes it really is. Ever heard of birth control failing? I guess all service members should be celebate until it is the "right time" to have a baby. :rolleyes:

I know it is true that some women plan their prenancies to get out of duty, but please don't paint every woman in the service with the same brush.
 
First of all, kindly leave my daughter out of this discussion. It has nothing at all to do with her. You are getting personal - perhaps you should re-read post #54.

....it's not THAT bad, but it's not quite "hitting the ground running"
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Are you backtracking from your comment?

Getting pregnant isn't an accident, she knew what she was doing, whether she wanted a baby or not out of the action,
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What are you saying here? She got pregnant to avoid going to sea?
If that were the case she could have simply resigned or taken a leave of absence and postponed the wedding for a year.
 
WAMom68 said:
Sometimes it really is. Ever heard of birth control failing? I guess all service members should be celebate until it is the "right time" to have a baby. :rolleyes:

I know it is true that some women plan their prenancies to get out of duty, but please don't paint every woman in the service with the same brush.
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Perhaps LITS would like every female in the service to get approval from her chain of command before relations with her husband/lover.

I can hear it now - "Not tonight honey, nor for the next year, since that is when we are scheduled to ship out."
ROTFL.
 
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