Recruiting woes

Standards -- not just military standards, but standards period -- are in sharp decline nationwide. This is the result.

Unless we as a society can find a way to reorient toward accountability and objective standards of excellence, the military will continue to struggle to find its desired number of qualified applicants.

My two cents. I doubt many (any?) will argue.
 
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Some kids require a different approach to learning … and it requires a lot of doing …

Trade-based apprenticeships should start in MS and early HS for these kids

The Math & Science for a lot of these kids make sense when participating in the activity …

Some will go on to achieve high success and obtain high college creds going about it a little unorthodox …

The Armed Services should think a little outside the box …
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There's lots of reasons all but the Marines aren't reaching goal. Gen Z doesn't find service in the military to be an attractive option after high school. Gen Z has standards but they are different. Their work ethic is different. They value life more than work in the work/life balance. They don't care that a supervisor or teacher for that matter expects a day's work for a day's pay or quality work submitted without cheating or copy/paste from Wikipedia. Not all members of course. I'm speaking in general about the group and its reputation based on observation and interacting with them daily, plus I've read different articles on the topic. I have a student waiting for an appointment from USMA and one waiting to hear from Hopkins. Most however are just normal kids who are trying to get by.

On the topic of the USN lowering standards I will say this. Standards have been lowered at different times in history for many of the same reasons. Post Vietnam was one of those periods. That's when I came in. I met the standard such as high school diploma and a decent ASVAB score but some of my shipmates...I'll leave it at that. Today's recruiters have trouble finding kids who meet the weight, education, and test score standards. It's hard to fix fat and stupid so standards must be lowered to man the fleet.

I'll close with this. When I was at BUMED I was in charge of training for Independent Duty Corpsmen, Preventive Medicine Technicians, and was the liaison to the Marine Corps for medical training. We had shortages in both NECs and didn't lower standards for IDCs for obvious reasons but did on the PMTs. I and the Medical Force Master Chief's office dropped the requirement for a corpsman to have made E-4 and have three years service before going to PMT school. We opened the C school up to new graduates from A school. Leadership in the fleet and around the world went nuts. My phone was burned up with complaints.

My standard response was: Picture the billet empty then picture the billet filled. Which one looks best?

That's what the US Navy is currently doing. Filling the billet.
 
Society as a whole seems to be moving away from education credentials and just judging people on whether they can do the job. I think this is a good thing. School standards have become so laughably low here in the US that the fact someone graduated high school means absolutely nothing. The ASVAB is a great tool that should be relied upon instead. As long as the sailor can make it through their training I welcome them aboard.
 
I agree that a lot of school credentials have lost their value recently, specifically most colleges. A high school diploma is not hard to get though. It shows a basic level of commitment to show up and finish school. It's just the continuing lowering of standards with hope as a plan.
 
I have less problem with this than the 10 min on the ASVAB. If someone for whatever reason sees no value in school and quits to start working at 15-16, (or just has to drop out due to money or raising a baby) then so be it. If they can score decent on the ASVAB and pass the physical requirements, why shouldn't they have a chance to enlist?

Maybe require GED for promotion to E-5 if necessary. But as far as lowering standards for recruiting, this seems minor.
 
justme said:
I have less problem with this than the 10 min on the ASVAB. If someone for whatever reason sees no value in school and quits to start working at 15-16, (or just has to drop out due to money or raising a baby) then so be it. If they can score decent on the ASVAB and pass the physical requirements, why shouldn't they have a chance to enlist?

Maybe require GED for promotion to E-5 if necessary. But as far as lowering standards for recruiting, this seems minor.
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I would tend to agree. I don't see the Navy getting much lift from this, only because getting a 50 on the ASVAB is not exactly easy. Not that the score is difficult, either but don't see many who didn't graduate HS being able to achieve this score. Frankly, I will take a dropout with a 50 vs a HS graduate with a 10 any day of the week. In reality, a HS diploma means very little these days. In most localities if you just show up you will receive a basic diploma.
 
USMC Crayons said:
I would tend to agree. I don't see the Navy getting much lift from this, only because getting a 50 on the ASVAB is not exactly easy. Not that the score is difficult, either but don't see many who didn't graduate HS being able to achieve this score. Frankly, I will take a dropout with a 50 vs a HS graduate with a 10 any day of the week. In reality, a HS diploma means very little these days. In most localities if you just show up you will receive a basic diploma.
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That is true. We can't fail anybody. There are circumstances when students can stop showing up and still pass/graduate.
 
USMC Crayons said:
I would tend to agree. I don't see the Navy getting much lift from this, only because getting a 50 on the ASVAB is not exactly easy. Not that the score is difficult, either but don't see many who didn't graduate HS being able to achieve this score. Frankly, I will take a dropout with a 50 vs a HS graduate with a 10 any day of the week. In reality, a HS diploma means very little these days. In most localities if you just show up you will receive a basic diploma.
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Well, thankfully, in my district it's not like that. Although...there's a push to not allow teachers to give a grade lower than 50% on anything. Even if the student does nothing, you won't be able to award a "0." I told my Principal that if that came to pass before I retired and he told us at a faculty meeting that this was the case, then he'd have my ID badge that afternoon. That's not preparing our students for the real world, it's just making the numbers look good.

Politicals are destroying the secondary educational system in the USA, IMHO. And it just spreads from there to the undergraduate ranks.

And onward.

Very sad.
 
Maybe the military needs to consider increasing pay and benefits, to be more competitive with the private sector that appears to be more attractive to kids looking for jobs right now.
 
flieger83 said:
Well, thankfully, in my district it's not like that. Although...there's a push to not allow teachers to give a grade lower than 50% on anything. Even if the student does nothing, you won't be able to award a "0." I told my Principal that if that came to pass before I retired and he told us at a faculty meeting that this was the case, then he'd have my ID badge that afternoon. That's not preparing our students for the real world, it's just making the numbers look good.

Politicals are destroying the secondary educational system in the USA, IMHO. And it just spreads from there to the undergraduate ranks.

And onward.

Very sad.
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As wacky as this concept is, I understand the idea and somewhat agree.
Grades' meanings are somewhat arbitrary. Who would be likely more successful, a bettor who is successful 59% percent of his picks or a pilot who successfully lands his plane 90% of the time? In an A-F letter grade, an A and F average to a C. In a number grade, a 100 and a 0 average to a 50, still an F. By making the min a 50, they are still failing, but a 100 and 50 average to a 75, a mid C.

Now, if teachers are pressured to pass at 50... I wouldn't support it.
 
unkown1961 said:
Maybe the military needs to consider increasing pay and benefits, to be more competitive with the private sector that appears to be more attractive to kids looking for jobs right now.
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I own a mortgage company, and therefore see the "truth" meaning paystubs, bank statements, etc. I can assure you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pay and benefits compared with the civilian sector right now.
 
USMC Crayons said:
I own a mortgage company, and therefore see the "truth" meaning paystubs, bank statements, etc. I can assure you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pay and benefits compared with the civilian sector right now.
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The pay/benefits are good. The question is do they justify the sacrifices that servicemembers must make if they could earn comparably as a civilian. I think its an easy yes as a twenty-something with little experience and no family. But for those more experienced servicemembers who have a spouse and kids, when the job offers start coming in its a much closer call.
 
Kierkegaard said:
The pay/benefits are good. The question is do they justify the sacrifices that servicemembers must make if they could earn comparably as a civilian. I think its an easy yes as a twenty-something with little experience and no family. But for those more experienced servicemembers who have a spouse and kids, when the job offers start coming in its a much closer call.
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There are always outliers. If you are nuke or something high speed with 10 years in, no amount of money the military is going to throw your way is going to match what the civilian world might offer you. For the remaining mortals, it's pretty darn strong. To be fair, the OP was recruiting woes, not retention. I will say that for most people, the overall compensation package that they would potentially receive in the civilian world is quite overstated. Generally speaking, peeps in the 1st Civ Div are not making as much as some would be led to believe.
 
Kierkegaard said:
The pay/benefits are good. The question is do they justify the sacrifices that servicemembers must make if they could earn comparably as a civilian. I think its an easy yes as a twenty-something with little experience and no family. But for those more experienced servicemembers who have a spouse and kids, when the job offers start coming in its a much closer call.
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Yes true. DS is single and having the time of his life seeing the world and SWO ing about. The money is great/he is deployed a lot and just keeps a small place in the States-banks a lot of money. But-not so great if you want a family and In your 30s. And being an officer pays more than your starting Seaman.
 
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