Sad news Part 2

[falconfamily]

Luigi, in general I don't think the military or society is dealing with the issue of suicide very well. There are so many layers to this, and much of it is bound by social and professional constraints that conflict with the best interests of the people who are contemplating taking their own lives.

I have seen this play out in my home town as well as the Academy, I have reached out to families who are consumed with unimaginable grief. I don't have any answers, all I have is my sense of compassion and the uncertainty that anything could have prevented what happened.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I don't have any answers, all I have is my sense of compassion and the uncertainty that anything could have prevented what happened.

For some people no. For most others at the Academy, I predict yes.

The academies by design ARE a "pressure cooker". They should be. Better yet they have to be! The question at hand is what amount of pressure is too much? Or to say it in a different way, is there a duration where it should be throttled back to zero stress even for a weekend here and there? Something to look forward to other than Christmas break. If so how often?

Anybody constantly going 100 MPH without occasional downtime will wear down. Some might not be rational when they are tested to their extreme while the vast amount of others will hold up. You won't know how vulnerable you are until you are tested to the breaking point. If the intensity is officially too much, you will generate an overall negative attitude and that is cancer for any institution. That said, realize a breather may not really be used for downtime (even this last 3 day weekend). Those smaller breaks are used by many to intensely dog paddle to catch-up.

If you are a junior or senior and you are looking at a $150K-$200K payback for exiting the pressure cooker because you have to (feeling suicidal), should there be a waiver so that a Cadet doesn't feel trapped?

If there has been a change in the pressure (or duration) overtime that caused a spike in people taking their own life, what is it? Can that section be addressed without diluting the AFA mission to intensely push these future leaders? After all, many Cadets thrive on stress and enjoys that intensity. It's necessary for the mission of the school. But something seems to have changed in the wrong direction. I'm not so sure you need a billion dollar study. Maybe throttle back the duration so the Cadets can regroup every so often. Maybe ask a diverse sample of Wing their opinion? I certainly know my DS has an opinion. I fully bet other Cadets reading this also have some suggestions.

We are all familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camels back". I get the feeling that there are different types of straws in today's AFA that was present in 1980.

 

[navy83]

I concur 100%.

Unfortunately, some here -- on this forum -- do not agree, and choose the "The Air Force Academy Knows Best" attitude under every circumstance.

The "out of sight out of mind" and "let's not talk about those unpleasant things" attitude is horrible, and it is costing lives.

There IS a problem, and it's at the USAFA--attacking Ms Fletcher is just misdirected anger, pride, or arrogance that they can get through it doing the same things they are doing now.

Which (clearly) are not working.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The academies by design ARE a "pressure cooker". They should be. Better yet they have to be! The question at hand is what amount of pressure is too much? Or to say it in a different way, is there a duration where it should be throttled back to zero stress even for a weekend here and there? Something to look forward to other than Christmas break. If so how often?

I found the pressure all around me at the Coast Guard Academy. Was it too much? Maybe sometimes, but I lived. I felt the pressure to not fail (although I failed often, which probably made me a better person now...although it certainly didn't feel that way at the time.) I felt the pressure to fit in at times. I felt the pressure to do well, pass classes, pass the PFE, drive simulators. I felt pressures over the summers on cutters. Pressure was all around me. Sometimes it drove me to do better and sometimes it was crushing. Those pressures existed from my first day, July 1, 2002, until my last at CGA, May 17, 2006. I got better at handling them over the years, but they never went away.


And then cadets graduate. I graduated and I found out what REAL pressure is, and that pressure involved the lives of others around me; people I worked with and people I was responsible for. I'm not sure I would have done as well with the pressures of the fleet if I had not be desensitized, in some way, to the pressures at the academy.

Are academies full of stressors? Sure. But the career beyond those fairly sheltered 4 years at a "factory" is greater.

 

[burnerafter16]

In the past 8 months, my C4C's squad have had four out-process voluntarily. Some punched out because of failing grades, some felt a civilian college is a better fit if they could still get in, some are even prior-enlisted that opted to leave because camp USAFA wasn't for them. This small sampling compared to over 4,000 cadets were able to go through the system of getting out without much repercussions or monetary liability(at least that's what they tell their ex-squadmates?) Of course they're only C4Cs so it may be different for upperclassmen who may owe a great sum if they quit. The pressure is not only in meeting expectations but the ramifications of what happens if they just can't hack it? How do they deal with family and friends that have been rooting for them from the time they got the BFE, awards ceremony, in-processing, acceptance etc. Are they going to be perceived as failures because they quit? Is there a back-up plan just in case it's not a good fit?
When we started this roller caster ride, we've been told from the beginning that encouragement and support from family and friends is important. It is common for cadets to think "what did I get myself into?" and contemplate quitting.
For my C4C, we've maintained that we respect his decision to go to a SA, are proud and encourage him to give it his best. If it is not enough, and he has no recourse- there's always home to come back to. It's not the end of the world.

 

[falconfamily]

For some people no. For most others at the Academy, I predict yes.

The academies by design ARE a "pressure cooker". They should be. Better yet they have to be! The question at hand is what amount of pressure is too much? Or to say it in a different way, is there a duration where it should be throttled back to zero stress even for a weekend here and there? Something to look forward to other than Christmas break. If so how often?

Anybody constantly going 100 MPH without occasional downtime will wear down. Some might not be rational when they are tested to their extreme while the vast amount of others will hold up. You won't know how vulnerable you are until you are tested to the breaking point. If the intensity is officially too much, you will generate an overall negative attitude and that is cancer for any institution. That said, realize a breather may not really be used for downtime (even this last 3 day weekend). Those smaller breaks are used by many to intensely dog paddle to catch-up.

If you are a junior or senior and you are looking at a $150K-$200K payback for exiting the pressure cooker because you have to (feeling suicidal), should there be a waiver so that a Cadet doesn't feel trapped?

If there has been a change in the pressure (or duration) overtime that caused a spike in people taking their own life, what is it? Can that section be addressed without diluting the AFA mission to intensely push these future leaders? After all, many Cadets thrive on stress and enjoys that intensity. It's necessary for the mission of the school. But something seems to have changed in the wrong direction. I'm not so sure you need a billion dollar study. Maybe throttle back the duration so the Cadets can regroup every so often. Maybe ask a diverse sample of Wing their opinion? I certainly know my DS has an opinion. I fully bet other Cadets reading this also have some suggestions.

We are all familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camels back". I get the feeling that there are different types of straws in today's AFA that was present in 1980.

I don't disagree with your argument, I can only wonder if the effort to reduce the wing from nearly 4400 to 4000 over the past year has contributed to the pressurized atmosphere at USAFA to a detrimental degree. It is also not obvious what the leadership has done or can do. But they should be concerned, this is not a good situation. As West Point and Annapolis begin to draw down this year, it would seem wise for them to take heed of what USAFA has gone through.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I found the pressure all around me at the Coast Guard Academy. Was it too much? Maybe sometimes, but I lived.

Then I graduated and I found out what REAL pressure is, and that pressure involved the lives of others around me; people I worked with and people I was responsible for.

Are academies full of stressors? Sure. But the career beyond those fairly sheltered 4 years at a "factory" is greater.

People react to pressures in different ways. That said, not everyone has the same level of stress in every academy. Not every student in the same academy has the same level of stress. Not ever job has the same level of stress. Two people doing the exact same thing may have vastly different levels of stress. I might think your job that you stress over is a piece of cake. Or I might crumble.

Some students stress over the physical element of "beatings". My DS doesn't mind it. Some people stress over academics (placing an immense amount of personal stress on hitting 4.0's). Some take 12 credits, others take 21 like my DS. Some are in honors and scholars, some are not. Some take Spanish after taking it in HS. Others take Chinese. Some stress over not making the grade of the fear of being dis-enrolled. Others shoot for C's and are completely fine with that.

To assume that your experience of what pushes your stress button is higher than my DS at the AFA is like comparing apples and airplanes. What we have established is you were not too stressed overall (it was manageable) at the Coast Guard. Good for you. That's all I can conclude out of your post. To assume that the REAL stress is in the working world is short sighted.

 

[LineInTheSand]

To assume that your experience of what pushes your stress button is higher than my DS at the AFA is like comparing apples and airplanes. What we have established is you were not too stressed overall at the Coast Guard. That's all I can conclude out of your post.

You should conclude that, at times, I was extremely stressed.

The issue we have here is you can't create stress proportional to a person's abilities to raise above it. Some people will be pushed beyond their abilities to cope with the stress. Maybe they're not cut out for the future positions they want. The last thing you want is for someone to crumble when other lives are on the line.

Every swab summer there was a rumor of "stress cards." I'm not sure where the rumors came from, but it never happened. The idea was, if a swab was overwhelmed, he/she could pull the "stress card" and cadre would back off.

Hint: There are no stress cards in the fleet. 200 angry Cubans want to riot on your flight deck and you get too "stressed".... no cards to pull. I'm not suggesting "real stress is in the working world", but I am suggesting the "real stress in the military working world" can lead to the death or survival of others. And I believe being able to LEARN how to deal with the stress of making a 2.0, so you can graduate, is important in taking the next step in dealing with stress of a higher order. You have to learn to count to learn to add, and you need to know addition before you can learn calculus. Giving a free out, or a pause button, teaches cadets and midshipmen nothing.

I agree, stress takes many forms. Sometimes lives aren't at stake. I led a group of 14 folks during the Deepwater Horizon oil spill response. Every official news releases, released document, etc came across my desk. We either produced of reviewed 40 releases a day, and the official website we maintained recieved about 4 million visits a DAY (that's a lot). When I hit the release button, 15 minutes later it was "breaking news" on CNN, NBC, MSNBC, Fox, etc.

I've done very few things in my life that were so immediate and visible. And let me tell you, I felt stress. Lives weren't really at stake. We weren't bombing or directing fire, or raiding a house or launching a missile, but it was stressful. And when I felt really stressed, I took a walk around the building and I told myself "no one will die from a mistake I make today"..... and no one did.

So, we don't have to dumb down the stress levels for people to survive. We need to look for warning signs and get people the help they need. Whether they like it or not, the stress will be out there waiting for them. We have to give them the tools to cope with it, or remove them entirely from the situation (including future situations).

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

You should conclude that, at times, I was extremely stressed.

The issue we have here is you can't create stress proportional to a person's abilities to raise above it. Some people will be pushed beyond their abilities to cope with the stress. Maybe they're not cut out for the future positions they want. The last thing you want is for someone to crumble when other lives are on the line.

Every swab summer there was a rumor of "stress cards." I'm not sure where the rumors came from, but it never happened. The idea was, if a swab was overwhelmed, he/she could pull the "stress card" and cadre would back off.

Hint: There are no stress cards in the fleet. 200 angry Cubans want to riot on your flight deck and you get too "stressed".... no cards to pull. I'm not suggesting "real stress is in the working world", but I am suggesting the "real stress in the military working world" can lead to the death or survival of others. And I believe being able to LEARN how to deal with the stress of making a 2.0, so you can graduate, is important in taking the next step in dealing with stress of a higher order. You have to learn to count to learn to add, and you need to know addition before you can learn calculus. Giving a free out, or a pause button, teaches cadets and midshipmen nothing.

I agree, stress takes many forms. Sometimes lives aren't at stake. I led a group of 14 folks during the Deepwater Horizon oil spill response. Every official news releases, released document, etc came across my desk. We either produced of reviewed 40 releases a day, and the official website we maintained recieved about 4 million visits a DAY (that's a lot). When I hit the release button, 15 minutes later it was "breaking news" on CNN, NBC, MSNBC, Fox, etc.

I've done very few things in my life that were so immediate and visible. And let me tell you, I felt stress. Lives weren't really at stake. We weren't bombing or directing fire, or raiding a house or launching a missile, but it was stressful. And when I felt really stressed, I took a walk around the building and I told myself "no one will die from a mistake I make today"..... and no one did.

So, we don't have to dumb down the stress levels for people to survive. We need to look for warning signs and get people the help they need. Whether they like it or not, the stress will be out there waiting for them. We have to give them the tools to cope with it, or remove them entirely from the situation (including future situations).

I read your post. Maybe your experience at the CGA isn't as intense as the AFA? I see what my DS is balancing. He is in 3 hours a day of boxing, in the Honors and Scholars program, and taking 21 credits. Add in the regular day-to-day grind and it's pretty intense. Academicly rank #4. Overall rank #10. If your CGA days matches his, then go ahead and call it a "fairly sheltered" experience. Not bad for a 19 year old.

He can balance it but not 24-7. No one can. I told him that is the lesson.

If you have other people that take over your responsibilities in the "real world", then stress is infinitely more manageable. That was my main point. I'l love to see that happen at the AFA. Certainly not diluting the program nor the level of stress. IMHO, just the duration.

 

[navy83]

So, we don't have to dumb down the stress levels for people to survive. We need to look for warning signs and get people the help they need. Whether they like it or not, the stress will be out there waiting for them. We have to give them the tools to cope with it, or remove them entirely from the situation (including future situations).

I believe you make a very good point. How can everyone, including parents, become educated as to the warning signs they need to look for so those who can't cope with the stress are given the tools to cope with it, given the proper counseling or helped in a way that removes them from the situation causing the stress?

 

[Packer]

For some people no. For most others at the Academy, I predict yes.

The academies by design ARE a "pressure cooker". They should be. Better yet they have to be! The question at hand is what amount of pressure is too much? Or to say it in a different way, is there a duration where it should be throttled back to zero stress even for a weekend here and there? Something to look forward to other than Christmas break. If so how often?

Anybody constantly going 100 MPH without occasional downtime will wear down. Some might not be rational when they are tested to their extreme while the vast amount of others will hold up. You won't know how vulnerable you are until you are tested to the breaking point. If the intensity is officially too much, you will generate an overall negative attitude and that is cancer for any institution. That said, realize a breather may not really be used for downtime (even this last 3 day weekend). Those smaller breaks are used by many to intensely dog paddle to catch-up.

If you are a junior or senior and you are looking at a $150K-$200K payback for exiting the pressure cooker because you have to (feeling suicidal), should there be a waiver so that a Cadet doesn't feel trapped?

If there has been a change in the pressure (or duration) overtime that caused a spike in people taking their own life, what is it? Can that section be addressed without diluting the AFA mission to intensely push these future leaders? After all, many Cadets thrive on stress and enjoys that intensity. It's necessary for the mission of the school. But something seems to have changed in the wrong direction. I'm not so sure you need a billion dollar study. Maybe throttle back the duration so the Cadets can regroup every so often. Maybe ask a diverse sample of Wing their opinion? I certainly know my DS has an opinion. I fully bet other Cadets reading this also have some suggestions.

We are all familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camels back". I get the feeling that there are different types of straws in today's AFA that was present in 1980.

I agree with you about the purpose of the pressure cooker but also note that there are an awful lot of officers that comission through ROTC and OCS. These folks mostly did not go through the intense pressure that exists at the academies and most go on to be successful officers.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I agree with you about the purpose of the pressure cooker but also note that there are an awful lot of officers that comission through ROTC and OCS. These folks mostly did not go through the intense pressure that exists at the academies and most go on to be successful officers.

Agreed.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I read your post. Maybe your experience at the CGA isn't as intense as the AFA? I see what my DS is balancing. He is in 3 hours a day of boxing, in the Honors and Scholars program, and taking 21 credits. Add in the regular day-to-day grind and it's pretty intense. Academicly rank #4. Overall rank #10. If your CGA days matches his, then go ahead and call it a "fairly sheltered" experience. Not bad for a 19 year old.

I'm not going to have a pissing contest with an Air Force Academy cadets dad (unless that will eard said AFA cadet a ribbon), but I will say that what you described is not unique to AFA in any way. I should probably inform you that your son's class rank is far superior to my past academy class rank. FAR SUPERIOR. A basic fact that would have mattered to all of my commanding officers, had they asked... but none of them did.

What your son will figure out soon, as I guess you will too, that an academy life is VERY sheltered, when compared to the actual service.

"BUT MY SON IS RANKED #10!!!"

Outstanding. He's still lower than the lowest officer... and when he graduates he still be serving with #1-#9 of every year before him.

Honestly, comparing the stresses of academy life is like comparing high school football with the NFL. The injuries are still real. One team loses and one team wins. But where are the stakes higher?

 

[LineInTheSand]

I believe you make a very good point. How can everyone, including parents, become educated as to the warning signs they need to look for so those who can't cope with the stress are given the tools to cope with it, given the proper counseling or helped in a way that removes them from the situation causing the stress?

In the Coast Guard, and I assume the other services too, suicide prevention training was a mandatory annual training.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I'm not going to have a pissing contest with an Air Force Academy cadets dad (unless that will eard said AFA cadet a ribbon), but I will say that what you described is not unique to AFA in any way. I should probably inform you that your son's class rank is far superior to my past academy class rank. FAR SUPERIOR. A basic fact that would have mattered to all of my commanding officers, had they asked... but none of them did.

What your son will figure out soon, as I guess you will too, that an academy life is VERY sheltered, when compared to the actual service.

"BUT MY SON IS RANKED #10!!!"

Outstanding. He's still lower than the lowest officer... and when he graduates he still be serving with #1-#9 of every year before him.

Honestly, comparing the stresses of academy life is like comparing high school football with the NFL. The injuries are still real. One team loses and one team wins. But where are the stakes higher?

My point was simple but you took it off course. Not everyone's stress is equal. Who knows, maybe his stress is HIGHER than yours is right now. I gave you an overview so that you might understand how intense it can get. you cannot benchmark your academy load with others at different academies with different loads. God only knows other Cadets are dealing with their own amount of intensity and balancing.

Sure. His stress level can drop by switching degrees, dropping his minor, dropping boxing, dropping scholars and honors classes or dropping his standards. Or maybe he could have some days where he can actually relax and continue then continue the grind? That was my point.

I read your text as chest thumping on how tough you now have it. If you weren't, I apologize. My simple point was you surely could have increased your stress at the CGA. You positively have no idea yet you assumed that all students will REALLY find out what stress is later.

Re: grades and the military. So it's o.k. to get C's because no one asks what they were when you are an officer? Surely you are not that short sighted.

 

[falconfamily]

In the Coast Guard, and I assume the other services too, suicide prevention training was a mandatory annual training.

You assume correctly, and the stress of deployments is quite different in each service. If training were the issue, this would not be an issue. Training is a part of the solution, but there are many more factors in this problem than can be addressed with a mandatory annual training session.

 

[MedB]

Deep Breaths... Sobering Topic

Before a mod or someone else steps in, let's look for some common ground here. Please remember these incredibly obvious points...

• 
  This is an incredibly important topic... young lives are at stake
  This is an incredibly emotional topic... young lives are at stake
  We all want the same thing here... young lives are at stake

I'm asking for all of us... let's look for the common ground and focus on outcomes.
Thank you.

 

[LineInTheSand]

My point was simple but you took it off course. Not everyone's stress is equal. Who knows, maybe his stress is HIGHER than yours is right now. I gave you an overview so that you might understand that your experiences could have been far more intense that they were. I suspect they were.

Sure. His stress level can drop by switching degrees, dropping his minor, dropping boxing, dropping scholars and honors classes or dropping his standards. Or maybe he could have some days where he can actually relax and continue then continue the grind? That was my point.

I read your text as chest thumping on how tough you now have it. If were weren't, I apologize. My simple point was you surely could have increased your stress at the CGA. You positively have no idea yet you assumed that all students will REALLY find out what stress is later.

Re: grades and the military. So it's o.k. to get C's because no one asks what they were when you are an officer? Surely you are not that short sighted.

I think we're dancing around each others points. I understand what your saying, and I agree with it. What I'm saying is, some of this stress is needed because when he graduates, he can't just "drop boxing or change majors", he'll have stress he must sustain. He won't go to his commanding officer and say "hey, I'm a little stressed out, so I'm going to take a "stress free day". Maybe he can, but maybe his CO says "no, we need you to do this."

I say sheltered because, while cadets and midshipmen wear uniforms, salute, march etc etc etc, there is a GREAT DEAL of give from the schools for "failure". Demerits, while they add up, remind a cadet or midshipman why he can't/shouldn't do something. The fleet (or big AF) isn't as forgiving.

Also, I'm SURE he knows stress now. But my point is, his stress currently affects himself. His failure is his own. It will impact his future. Once he graduates, it's a whole new ball game. Now his failure affects others, either with careers or promotions, or more importantly, lives. His ability to perform, despite stress, will trickle down to the people he works with and for, and especially the people who work for him.

As far as grades go... I was VERY shortsighted. "2.0 Good To Go" was comforting, until I decided to apply to grad school. Luckily, somehow, I made it, and I can tell you, I wasn't happy getting C's the second time around.

As far as "how tough I now have it." I was an officer from 2006-2011. After my five years I looked and found a job. I am paid well. I haven't had a wrist-slitting Cuban migrants or oil spills or near-death experiences. The stress of grades and fitness tests and service have been replaced with the stresses of balancing a budget, saving for a house, married life, cleaning the house, paying bills, etc. It could be FAR worse for me.

Now I know that my opinion could easily change when I have a kid, and he/she is in college. I don't think my parents sheltered me as a fell and got back up. But I knew they always loved me, and supported me.

So I've been a high performing high school student, a mediocre Coast Guard Academy cadet, a middle-of-the-road Coast Guard officer (with some things to learn), a graduate school student (and graduate), and a private sector employee. I've been a bachelor and a husband. While I didn't appreciate all of the stresses, and I've had some very low points, I think stress has the ability to make you stronger. In the short term, removing some of the stress would have been helpful, but I think I grew from it long-term.

Your son has succeeded, to this point with a packed academic program, sports and military obligations (commonly held challenges across each academy, but tackled differently but different students). He could have taken it easy or cut back, but he hasn't. I think, when he gets to the real Air Force, he will benefit from that experience. He will know how to do the work, deal with stress and succeed. His first instinct won't be to quit or ask for a "stress card".

 

[LineInTheSand]

You assume correctly, and the stress of deployments is quite different in each service. If training were the issue, this would not be an issue. Training is a part of the solution, but there are many more factors in this problem than can be addressed with a mandatory annual training session.

Training is PART of the solution. Agreed.

What are the other factors? I know we've talked about stress. Assuming we can't remove people from the situations that cause stress (without pulling them from the military organizations they're members of), what are the issues that continue to come up?

I took a counseling class in undergrad (loved it), and we discussed how one suicide can break the glass for others considering suicide. That is often why a suicide in one unit can lead, or contribute to other suicides.

The Air Force Academy has had more than one. Even with the relatively large size of AFA, it's still fairly close. I haven't heard of West Point, Naval Academy, Coast Guard Academy or Merchant Marine Academy student suicides. But I do think, if one did occur, it increases the risks for other students who may be in difficult positions.

I don't believe this is unique to the Air Force Academy, or that the school is doing many things differently than other schools.

 

[Stealth_81]

Before anyone posts anything more that may lead this thread farther astray, please get this back on topic.

This topic is very personal to a lot of us and it will be difficult enough to keep it from derailing without anyone having personal back-and-forth commenting. So, before it does get shut down, please stop the personally directed comments.

Stealth_81