Standards in Free Fall

[dododododododododododo]

Current Cadet here, I'm curious from the older grads if things really are uniquely bad here now or if it's always been like this.

Not only among the doolies but among all classes, people don't really give a damn. Embarrassingly bad uniforms, disrespectfully talking to officers, blatant violations of the honor code and nothing happening, etc. And if anyone speaks up about it you're socially ostracized, being called a "narp." It results in a culture of apathy and fear against speaking up. It makes me wonder why most of these people decided to come here. Has this always been the culture here? I came here because I wanted to be held to a high standard, but the vast majority just don't care. It makes me really concerned that the people who graduate from here, who are now too afraid to correct anyone in anything, will be in charge of our nation's defense and nuclear weapons. Thoughts?

 

[franknd]

Where are the tac officers when this is happening?

 

[Peter2025]

Where are the tac officers when this is happening?

There's only so many of them. As one of the speakers for our squadron said last year, "If cadets don't care, nobody cares. You set the standard."

 

[All3Services]

I would have to agree with the comment that "You set the standards". This is not an uncommon situation and when you consider the current senior classes went through the COVID adjustments and had a totally different experience it's not totally surprising. I can say that I was surprised by many of the things I saw in my many trips to USAFA over the last 18 months and I would like to see a more "military" approach. That being said, even though it's the cadets who "run" the Wing, the staff must also course correct when they see this kind of regression and make sure the cadets stay on track. Shared burden of responsibility between the staff and senior cadets and those cadets who feel this way must be able to voice their opinions to the staff and have them taken seriously without concern of repercussions. How could wanting the Academy to have higher standards be a bad thing???

 

[franknd]

There's only so many of them. As one of the speakers for our squadron said last year, "If cadets don't care, nobody cares. You set the standard."

Improper uniforms and disrespectful talk to officers are no-gos, full stop. Any tac who allows that stuff ought not to be there. And a few public corrections should go some way I would think.

There was a post here within the last year about a cadet on notice that he was on his way to disenrollment for, inter alia, missing formations, wrong uniform, etc. So somebody is noticing these things.

 

[Clar]

Current Cadet here, I'm curious from the older grads if things really are uniquely bad here now or if it's always been like this.

Not only among the doolies but among all classes, people don't really give a damn. Embarrassingly bad uniforms, disrespectfully talking to officers, blatant violations of the honor code and nothing happening, etc. And if anyone speaks up about it you're socially ostracized, being called a "narp." It results in a culture of apathy and fear against speaking up. It makes me wonder why most of these people decided to come here. Has this always been the culture here? I came here because I wanted to be held to a high standard, but the vast majority just don't care. It makes me really concerned that the people who graduate from here, who are now too afraid to correct anyone in anything, will be in charge of our nation's defense and nuclear weapons. Thoughts?

While I understand this is not the exact answer you are looking for, I'd challenge you and ask what you have done to correct the issues you see. If you are taking heat for speaking up when something is wrong, feel free to reach out and I will back you as long as we are doing it respectfully.

 

[IsaNeves]

Current Cadet here, I'm curious from the older grads if things really are uniquely bad here now or if it's always been like this.

Not only among the doolies but among all classes, people don't really give a damn. Embarrassingly bad uniforms, disrespectfully talking to officers, blatant violations of the honor code and nothing happening, etc. And if anyone speaks up about it you're socially ostracized, being called a "narp." It results in a culture of apathy and fear against speaking up. It makes me wonder why most of these people decided to come here. Has this always been the culture here? I came here because I wanted to be held to a high standard, but the vast majority just don't care. It makes me really concerned that the people who graduate from here, who are now too afraid to correct anyone in anything, will be in charge of our nation's defense and nuclear weapons. Thoughts?

This is eye-opening concerning to me. My daughter turned down 16+ sports scholarships and is a national 4-year scholarship finalist to any university that will accept her. She was nominated for the J-100. She is overlooking all these scholarship offers to attend USAFA. In her congressional interview, she mentioned that discipline, and leadership, go beyond expectations as to why she wants to attend an academy instead of an Ivy university. She is the commander of her unit and does not allow cadets to display disrespect to elders or other cadets. I hope the culture at any service academy holds itself way above other conduct normally seen at other colleges. My daughter chose to serve her nation and represent her family. I understand cadets are adults, but parents, too, have to demand conduct expectations when they are away representing their families. I hope things get back into gear and focus on the bigger picture of developing themselves as our nation's next leaders.

 

[Cerberi]

This is eye-opening concerning to me. My daughter turned down 16+ sports scholarships and is a national 4-year scholarship finalist to any university that will accept her. She was nominated for the J-100. She is overlooking all these scholarship offers to attend USAFA. In her congressional interview, she mentioned that discipline, and leadership, go beyond expectations as to why she wants to attend an academy instead of an Ivy university. She is the commander of her unit and does not allow cadets to display disrespect to elders or other cadets. I hope the culture at any service academy holds itself way above other conduct normally seen at other colleges. My daughter chose to serve her nation and represent her family. I understand cadets are adults, but parents, too, have to demand conduct expectations when they are away representing their families. I hope things get back into gear and focus on the bigger picture of developing themselves as our nation's next leaders.

This is an anonymous forum. I am a grad and I hear all sorts of rumors about USAFA - good and bad.

I have no direct information to suggest the OP doesn't have a valid viewpoint. However, it is a single datapoint. I am a firm believer in the pendulum in that it swings back and forth regarding too lenient and too strict and has for decades and that it will continue to do so.

The one thing that never seems to change is the vast majority of those that attend and graduate from service academies are incredibly good and decent people and it is the opportunity to work them with and to build shared memories that I value more than anything about my Academy experience. My DD is a USNA graduate, and I see the same type of people that she went to school with that I did. (I felt the same about the people I was on active duty with as well)

I was some midwestern farm kid from a small town. By going to USAFA, I was able to fly gliders, jump out of planes, travel internationally, fly airplanes, survive SERE, etc and this was just while at USAFA. I was assigned to upperclassman that could have cared less about the crease in my shirt and other upperclassman that thought the whole world centered around if we had cleaned the sink stopper for the Saturday Morning Inspection. Both groups seemed to do fine in the USAF and in life.

I wouldn't make any decision about attending or leaving based on how strict or lenient the current environment is considered to be.

BTW - it was definitely tougher when I was there - said every grad ever.

 

[raimius]

Hard to say, not being there. Were some cadets wearing the uniform slightly out of regs? (yes). Did some occasionally get snarky with leadership. (yes).
For both of those, there are borderline cases and egregious cases. There is a big difference between adding some sarcasm to a "Duly noted, sir" and saying "F U!". There is also a difference between having your hair 1/4in too long vs not tucking your blues shirt in.

What concerns me is the honor code violations. THAT is black and white.

 

[Osprey123]

This is eye-opening concerning to me. My daughter turned down 16+ sports scholarships and is a national 4-year scholarship finalist to any university that will accept her. She was nominated for the J-100. She is overlooking all these scholarship offers to attend USAFA. In her congressional interview, she mentioned that discipline, and leadership, go beyond expectations as to why she wants to attend an academy instead of an Ivy university. She is the commander of her unit and does not allow cadets to display disrespect to elders or other cadets. I hope the culture at any service academy holds itself way above other conduct normally seen at other colleges. My daughter chose to serve her nation and represent her family. I understand cadets are adults, but parents, too, have to demand conduct expectations when they are away representing their families. I hope things get back into gear and focus on the bigger picture of developing themselves as our nation's next leaders.

This is one anonymous post from an individual who is sitting in judgment of 4000 people and making sweeping generalizations. Now, if there were 20 or 30 such posts it would be a more significant pattern.

Like any college there are people who are unhappy. Like any college, the students are only human with the same flaws as everyone else.

Perhaps OP should stop worrying about and judging everyone else around them and focus on what is within their control, themselves. Be the best person and leader the you can be.

 

[severn]

Current Cadet here, I'm curious from the older grads if things really are uniquely bad here now or if it's always been like this.

Not only among the doolies but among all classes, people don't really give a damn. Embarrassingly bad uniforms, disrespectfully talking to officers, blatant violations of the honor code and nothing happening, etc. And if anyone speaks up about it you're socially ostracized, being called a "narp." It results in a culture of apathy and fear against speaking up. It makes me wonder why most of these people decided to come here. Has this always been the culture here? I came here because I wanted to be held to a high standard, but the vast majority just don't care. It makes me really concerned that the people who graduate from here, who are now too afraid to correct anyone in anything, will be in charge of our nation's defense and nuclear weapons. Thoughts?

... so have the internal fortitude to report this to your Commandant Brigadier General Gavin P. Marks.

 

[flieger83]

The OP is not wrong, IMHO.

I recently took my JROTC cadets to USAFA and two weeks later went back for my class reunion. My cadets commented on the "hair out of regs, uniforms not really looking good (wrinkled badly if in blues), and a lot of other things." I took a bunch of pictures of cadets and when I had a chance to speak with General Marks, I showed him my phone. He got a serious look on his face and simply said "yes, this is a problem; it's one I'm going to fix."

'Nuff said, thank you sir!"

I spoke with a senior NCO in a squadron and asked him about this. He said it's a real problem. The new grooming standards...cadets push to the limits, especially if they're not Caucasian because they are sure they won't be called out. The females push the ponytail limits, again, because they believe the males are too unsure/afraid to challenge them. This from a squadron NCO (there's the AOC and an NCO in each cadet squadron, this one was an E7). The AOC confirmed these comments. She said, "we're working on this issue, Wing wide."

Will things swing back? Oh, most likely. Until then, my class's conclusion was: "It's become Wild Blue U... a nice college in Colorado with a funny dress code."

And now I sound like one of those "old brown shoe grads..."
(Back when Dino's roamed the Terrazzo...)

 

[tkinion]

This is not a USAFA issue, it’s a USAF issue.

 

[Peter2025]

Improper uniforms and disrespectful talk to officers are no-gos, full stop. Any tac who allows that stuff ought not to be there. And a few public corrections should go some way I would think.

There was a post here within the last year about a cadet on notice that he was on his way to disenrollment for, inter alia, missing formations, wrong uniform, etc. So somebody is noticing these things.

I agree with you. What I was saying is that it's up to cadets to set the standard, not the officers. Yes, if cadets fail to it's their job to correct, but as a leader-creating institution, USAFA must rely on the cadets' to uphold the standard.

 

[Hockey10]

Hard to say, not being there. Were some cadets wearing the uniform slightly out of regs? (yes). Did some occasionally get snarky with leadership. (yes).
For both of those, there are borderline cases and egregious cases. There is a big difference between adding some sarcasm to a "Duly noted, sir" and saying "F U!". There is also a difference between having your hair 1/4in too long vs not tucking your blues shirt in.

What concerns me is the honor code violations. THAT is black and white.

USMA has gutted the honor code.

 

[All3Services]

This is not a USAFA issue, it’s a USAF issue.

Imho it's even more of a society issue than just the SA's or services. "Severn" is correct also, OP have the courage of your convictions to be the voice of change and step up to create the change. It has to start somewhere and the staff need the support of the cadets to truly make it work. That being said, staff MUST support the Wing leadership when corrective action is taken not just leave them hanging.

 

[Old Enlisted Marine]

I know no one here is going to want to take advise from some old enlisted guy (especially a Marine on an AF thread) but when I was promoted to Sergeant a Gunny told me don't worry about the guys when they are complaining, worry when they stop. The guys/gals will take advantage of what they are allowed to take advantage of. That will never change! Set the standard, maintain the standard and live the standard.

 

[ChaggyC17]

I'm a grad and I was shocked at all the beards and unkempt uniforms. A squadronmate of mine was at his Reunion and during the football game, he went to use the restroom when a group of cadets were using profanity and acting in a less than respectable manner. Buddy said something to him and they squared up to him and told him to "F-Off." He said.."Hey..I'm a grad and a Lt Col." They told him to "F-off" and then walked away. He was simply rendered speechless.

 

[cb7893]

I'm a grad and I was shocked at all the beards and unkempt uniforms. A squadronmate of mine was at his Reunion and during the football game, he went to use the restroom when a group of cadets were using profanity and acting in a less than respectable manner. Buddy said something to him and they squared up to him and told him to "F-Off." He said.."Hey..I'm a grad and a Lt Col." They told him to "F-off" and then walked away. He was simply rendered speechless.

Well? Did he do anything other than shake his head in frustration? Those cadets are on active duty and he is a superior officer. If he did not follow up with their COC, then he's part of the problem. Abiding is abetting.

Entitlement runs thick in our culture and nowhere more than in its elite colleges and universities.

 

[A1Janitor]

I'm a grad and I was shocked at all the beards and unkempt uniforms. A squadronmate of mine was at his Reunion and during the football game, he went to use the restroom when a group of cadets were using profanity and acting in a less than respectable manner. Buddy said something to him and they squared up to him and told him to "F-Off." He said.."Hey..I'm a grad and a Lt Col." They told him to "F-off" and then walked away. He was simply rendered speechless.

In a just world, they would be worrying about graduation.