Standards in Free Fall

justme said:
In general, how different are USAFA and USNA/USMA in that regard?
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Training at USAFA typically ended after 4 deg year. The training was more difficult for a shorter duration ( 1 year), whereas at USNA/USMA the training isn't as intense (still intense just little nuances) over a longer duration.
 
SA2026hopeful said:
I agree that the standards are slipping at USAFA and Gen Marks is doing what he can to try and fix it. However, the reason no on is willing to correct is because everything that was once considered training is now hazing. People are just letting things go out of fear of getting caught up with mal training hits. Over time it has just dominoed into people failing to correct one another. Its just apart of the culture now unfortunately.
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DS is currently training staff and got cited for a training violation on something that 2 semesters ago would have been acceptable smh
 
SA2026hopeful said:
Training at USAFA typically ended after 4 deg year. The training was more difficult for a shorter duration ( 1 year), whereas at USNA/USMA the training isn't as intense (still intense just little nuances) over a longer duration.
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To help answer the question for "justme" and adding to the reply above, here is how it was best explained to me a while ago. Cadets at all three SAs (for this instance just referring to USNA, USMA and USAFA with all due respect to USMMA and USCGA) must eat a certain type of sandwich :)At USNA and USMA they are given a quarter of it to eat each of the four years they are there while at USAFA they eat the whole thing in their Doolie year and it's over with. Different methodology for the same outcome.
 
AF Roots said:
DS is currently training staff and got cited for a training violation on something that 2 semesters ago would have been acceptable smh
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My son's squadron has a C2C that keeps violating training policies and she has not been cited yet. Hopefully she will.
 
There are good leaders and bad leaders everywhere. In politics, the work force, on small committees, school boards, at a SA, in student leadership, in the church..anywhere and everywhere.

This is good training for life.
 
USAFA claims to have a four class system where fourthclass cadets (doolies) get continuous training their first year by thirdclass (sophomore) cadet "coaches", who are in turn mentored by their secondclass (junior) element leaders and staff NCOs. In reality, most cadets would say its a two class system: four degrees and everybody else (the upper classes). The only real distinction between the four classes tends to be benefit (and punishment) related. The longer you are there, the more "things" you can have in your room or in the parking lot (a car for juniors) and the more opportunities you have to leave ("take a pass"). However, you also get a bigger punishment for infractions the longer you are here because you should know better. Get busted for cheating as a four degree and you will likely get a supervised probation. Cheat as a firstie and you will likely get a ticket home. There is training all four years at USAFA in the sense that the three degrees need to be there to train the four degrees, and some two degrees and firsties need to be there to plan and oversee the training. Other training programs (flying, parachuting, survival) are offered each year or to certain classes.
 
USNA had the same problems when I was there. The Navy has the same problems. These aren't really that unique.

Deal with it and don't walk away next time. Go ahead and get over the uncomfortable conversation. If enough people tell a guy to go back to his room and iron his uniform, he'll eventually get the idea that he won't get away with it.

It won't be different after graduation. Being a boot butterbar and having to enforce the standard for an E-7 is pretty uncomfortable as well.

This is a culture problem that needs to be fixed from within. The officers and NCOs will not be able to solve this for you. Waiting around for someone to do something about this is not going to yield any results.
 
AF Roots said:
DS is currently training staff and got cited for a training violation on something that 2 semesters ago would have been acceptable smh
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My C2C said today they had to sign a piece of paper that said if they were found "hazing" or reported for hazing by someone, they would possibly be removed from the Academy. As such, he said next year's basic will be a joke, because no one wants to jeopardize their own education/career. Basically if a Doolie didn't like what they were being asked to do, they could just call it hazing.
 
SF_Treat said:
My C2C said today they had to sign a piece of paper that said if they were found "hazing" or reported for hazing by someone, they would possibly be removed from the Academy. As such, he said next year's basic will be a joke, because no one wants to jeopardize their own education/career. Basically if a Doolie didn't like what they were being asked to do, they could just call it hazing.
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"Hazing" is an action that has no correlation to training or no reasoning as to why it is being performed. Training is everything else. Hopefully the cadre can learn how to train and lead people and not give them pointless or random tasks just to humiliate them
 
SF_Treat said:
My C2C said today they had to sign a piece of paper that said if they were found "hazing" or reported for hazing by someone, they would possibly be removed from the Academy. As such, he said next year's basic will be a joke, because no one wants to jeopardize their own education/career. Basically if a Doolie didn't like what they were being asked to do, they could just call it hazing.
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Basic is one big training plan. Just implement that plan and you cannot be accused of hazing. Go off script to accomplish unrelated ends using non-standard means and you won't have much to defend yourself. Also, getting disenrolled from USAFA is a common threat whenever someone with that power gets upset. However, in practice it is not very common. Typically those who are disenrolled have committed a CRIME (sexual assault, drugs) not a RULE violation. I say this having witnessed those who have grievously violated the Honor Code and academic probationers who are consistently teetering on the edge of disenrollment are allowed to stay on and graduate.
 
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AF Roots said:
Well it can’t be my C2C DS b/c he already got cited 🤣
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Just in the nick of time before signing that acknowledgment, I am sure. 😂 I have cadet #2 starting next year. In typical little brother fashion, I am sure he will way he has no idea why DS #1 said it was hard. 🫡
 
navy27hopeful said:
"Hazing" is an action that has no correlation to training or no reasoning as to why it is being performed. Training is everything else. Hopefully the cadre can learn how to train and lead people and not give them pointless or random tasks just to humiliate them
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The concern is that basic training is designed to accomplish several important goals to ready a person for military service which require stress and discomfort that, in this day and climate, could be considered by some as unnecessary. Combat is not pleasant and it's hard to prepare someone for the realities of service without a degree of actions that are not considered appropriate in a normal civilian environment. This could be construed by some new to the profession of arms as hazing because it's not something to which they have previously been exposed. The simple fact is that there are always some who take it too far but there are also those who are not prepared or suited for the military who will not be able to see the point and therefore will complain whenever they are not happy. Where does it end and at what point will the training of military personnel be useless in preparation for the ultimate requirement of being deployed to a combat environment where their feelings are no longer relevant? Just because an individual who is uncomfortable doesn't see the why behind an action doesn't mean there isn't one and we have to be very careful how we address training violations. Just my humble opinion of course from someone who has been there, done that and has the scars to prove it.
 
justme said:
In general, how different are USAFA and USNA/USMA in that regard?
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Its actually too complicated to get into here.
Let me tell you how my daughter described it:

Let's say you have a poop sandwich. You cut it into quarters. At USNA & USMA, you are served a quarter each year.
At USAFA, you have to eat the whole sandwich that first year. The next 3 years are much easier.
 
All3Services said:
The concern is that basic training is designed to accomplish several important goals to ready a person for military service which require stress and discomfort that, in this day and climate, could be considered by some as unnecessary. Combat is not pleasant and it's hard to prepare someone for the realities of service without a degree of actions that are not considered appropriate in a normal civilian environment. This could be construed by some new to the profession of arms as hazing because it's not something to which they have previously been exposed. The simple fact is that there are always some who take it too far but there are also those who are not prepared or suited for the military who will not be able to see the point and therefore will complain whenever they are not happy. Where does it end and at what point will the training of military personnel be useless in preparation for the ultimate requirement of being deployed to a combat environment where their feelings are no longer relevant? Just because an individual who is uncomfortable doesn't see the why behind an action doesn't mean there isn't one and we have to be very careful how we address training violations. Just my humble opinion of course from someone who has been there, done that and has the scars to prove it.
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This is probably the best way I have heard this phrased, and it is also the opinion of almost every upperclassman I talk to.
 
I'll just talk about USNA and MIDN since we're comparing.

There was a process at USNA (at least back in the day) to have properly justified and approved ITEs. Risk management (e.g. if a corpsman needed to be present, hydration plan, timed breaks, etc.) in a chit. It was annoying, but it also prevented the hazing accusations--Plebes that lodged complaints simply had no idea how much deliberate planning went into what they thought was a smoke session, or that an officer had actually approved their entire course of suffering.

I remember when they set red lines for what would constitute a chit. It seemed ridiculous to get O-5 approval for more than 4x25 pushups (and some other things). We thought it was a softening of the training program. It turned out to be not that bad, because it turned out the chits weren't that hard to route. What they really wanted to see was a deliberate plan and an actual training purpose, i.e. the line between training and hazing.

If there is no process, I can understand the frustration. If there is a process, and it's not being used, then I don't understand why not. How can you possibly be cited on an approved training event with a deliberate plan? At the same time the opportunity should be given to make a plan and properly execute it.

IIRC most if not all SELs at USNA were RDCs or DIs, so there was quite a bit of experience with entry-level training at MCRD or Great Lakes. That specific expertise added an additional level of necessary supervision and guidance for matters like this.

Things change all the time as Dants come and go, so I have no idea if this is even true anymore. But if upperclassmen can't even be bothered to correct uniforms on fellow upperclassmen, I get why the administration would hesitate to trust them with literally anything else.
 
nuensis said:
USNA had the same problems when I was there. The Navy has the same problems. These aren't really that unique.

Deal with it and don't walk away next time. Go ahead and get over the uncomfortable conversation. If enough people tell a guy to go back to his room and iron his uniform, he'll eventually get the idea that he won't get away with it.

It won't be different after graduation. Being a boot butterbar and having to enforce the standard for an E-7 is pretty uncomfortable as well.

This is a culture problem that needs to be fixed from within. The officers and NCOs will not be able to solve this for you. Wa

iting around for someone to do something about this is not going to yield any results.
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... in 2023-2024?
The Commandant will not put up with "any" shenanigans.
 
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