Standards in Free Fall

[GoodRun]

January 2006
Mandatory wing-wide breakfast returns.

Was it a contact time or was there a mandatory morning meal formation followed by marching to Mitchell Hall? Mandatory breakfast WITH marching has come and gone too.

 

[Blue&SilverBear]

Was it a contact time or was there a mandatory morning meal formation followed by marching to Mitchell Hall? Mandatory breakfast WITH marching has come and gone too.

I think we marched to breakfast a few times, but it wasn't a regular occurrence. We had common GRs at 0600 for core classes, so they may have kept the pre-breakfast schedule clear for that.

 

[franknd]

This is not the only thing considered hazing. Consider this year's training ROEs, or at least some of my personal favorites:

- "Assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals"

- "Cadet Military Training events will not be designed with the primary objective to reach physical conditioning goals."

- "If a low/high crawl event is incorporated [in training], all cadets (including upper class cadets) at the training event will conduct the low/high crawl, unless on a medical profile."

- "Cadets will not conduct the low or high crawl in snow or on wet, uneven, or rocky terrain."

- "At no time will the weight of the ruck exceed 20% of the individual's body weight."

- "Squadrons are not authorized to require cadets to complete pushups/sit-ups upon entering/exiting the squadron area."

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, wow, this strikes me as a ridiculous level of micromanagement more befitting elementary school PE than preparing and conditioning warriors. Leadership is an art; it is not a set of schoolmarm rules. To that end, leaders need to learn proper judgment, which is not inculcated by a bunch of rules that read as though they were drafted by outside legal counsel to defend against litigation. All of these banned practices can be part of proper training and discipline, and they can also be abused and turned into hazing. It seems as though whoever promulgated these decided that he/she didn't want to be bothered with training leaders, training them to learn where the lines are -- which is what training is after all -- and, instead, defaulted to CYA. That is pitiful.

 

[GoodRun]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but, wow, this strikes me as a ridiculous level of micromanagement more befitting elementary school PE than preparing and conditioning warriors. Leadership is an art; it is not a set of schoolmarm rules. To that end, leaders need to learn proper judgment, which is not inculcated by a bunch of rules that read as though they were drafted by outside legal counsel to defend against litigation. All of these banned practices can be part of proper training and discipline, and they can also be abused and turned into hazing. It seems as though whoever promulgated these decided that he/she didn't want to be bothered with training leaders, training them to learn where the lines are -- which is what training is after all -- and, instead, defaulted to CYA. That is pitiful.

I don't disagree with you. Ideally, the Comm would set some objectives and boundary conditions for training, then provide the resources to accomplish them. Cadets would then be free to practice leading while executing various training plans.

When I see the pendulum swing hard this way, to me, it means he doesn't think the activities above contribute to his objectives, and he thinks too many cadets are abusing these activities rather than excising judgment on when to use them and when not to use them. As such, he has to adjust the boundaries until the thinks his objectives can be met given the existing resources (generally, time).

Cadets who were succeeding under the old rules now have to start over to build new plans. Cadets who were overusing practices to the point of hazing will have to as well. Both will learn more about leadership as a result.

Also, many of the banned training activities have a potential to cause injury. If the Comm thinks the hazing creates the potential for serious injury of death, he has to act.

 

[Sully16]

Could someone please explain to me what it means that C4Cs can be at rest in their squadron at 1745, as mentioned in post #73 ? I believe it is in reference to a standard for 1st year cadets that is in place after 1745 hours, but I am unsure of what it actually means. As this is a change from past practices, could someone please explain what the previous practice was? This is a very interesting discussion.

 

[franknd]

When I see the pendulum swing hard this way, to me, it means he doesn't think the activities above contribute to his objectives, and he thinks too many cadets are abusing these activities rather than excising judgment on when to use them and when not to use them. As such, he has to adjust the boundaries until the thinks his objectives can be met given the existing resources (generally, time).

I don't what how many would be "too many," but if it's enough to make leadership scrap training of this sort altogether, then perhaps USAFA ought to revisit how cadets are being selected for appointment. If the problem is really that bad.

 

[GoodRun]

I don't what how many would be "too many," but if it's enough to make leadership scrap training of this sort altogether, then perhaps USAFA ought to revisit how cadets are being selected for appointment. If the problem is really that bad.

The selection process probably could be improved upon, but it is not radically different from the other SAs. Also, the other SAs have their own problems, which also come and go with a change in Commandant, generations, and positive or negative incidents at the institutions.

Most cadets are teens and young adults with brains that are not fully formed (the pre-frontal cortex responsible for planning, judgment, and moral reasoning). Some have surprisingly little real leadership experience. Remember that things like volunteering at a homeless shelter (indicative of empathy and caring for others), lettering in soccer (indicative of endurance, aggression, teamwork), and even positions like Class President suggest the POTENTIAL for leadership. USAFA's selection process is not bringing in teens who are general officer or CEO-level leaders. If it was doing this, then there would be no reason for them to attend USAFA. Young and developing leaders will make mistakes.

Complaining publicly (and anonymously) about their Commandant--a man who IS a general officer, and a successful, PROVEN leader--is one example of poor judgment. What does it accomplish other than to tarnish the reputation of what will be their alma mater, and dissuade potential highly qualified applicants on this forum from attending? I suspect the Commandant or his staff might have a very different view of the problem, if they were here to defend themselves. As others have chimed in, what has been described by cadets here has been seen before. It is unsual to a cadet who has only been at USAFA for 2-3 years, and has only seen one Commandant changeover. For someone who has seen 10 Commandants come and go (they typically serve 2 years), this is just another pendulum swing.

In my posts above, I have tried to advise cadets monitoring this thread on the way to proceed with this uncomfortable change. It is to do exactly what officers do when they are given a new mission or a change of mission. The only difference for cadets is that nobody will die if they make a mistake, and nobody will be demoted, fired, or dishonorably discharged if they make a mistake. (This of course assumes their actions or inactions are not criminal or incompatible with military service).

 

[GoodRun]

Could someone please explain to me what it means that C4Cs can be at rest in their squadron at 1745, as mentioned in post #73 ? I believe it is in reference to a standard for 1st year cadets that is in place after 1745 hours, but I am unsure of what it actually means. As this is a change from past practices, could someone please explain what the previous practice was? This is a very interesting discussion.

Practices change all the time, but I suspect that (until "Recognized") fourthclass cadets musts be "at attention" when they are moving about their squadron (dorm). At attention means they are standing up straight with hands cupped at their sides, walking tall (marching), or sitting with hands flat on their knees and eyes staring straight ahead. They do not need to do this when in their rooms where they are "at rest" (not at attention). So this change means they would not need to be at attention when walking around their squadron's portion of the dorm.

 

[AFrpaso]

Could someone please explain to me what it means that C4Cs can be at rest in their squadron at 1745, as mentioned in post #73 ? I believe it is in reference to a standard for 1st year cadets that is in place after 1745 hours, but I am unsure of what it actually means. As this is a change from past practices, could someone please explain what the previous practice was? This is a very interesting discussion.

The phrasing is borrowed from drill and ceremonies. "Attention", "at ease", and "rest" are drill positions.

"Attention" is the most strict of the positions. C4Cs would be expected to march through the squadron staying on the right side of the hallway, execute facing movements, etc. They'd also be expected to "greet" upperclassmen as they are encountered in the hallway with something to the effect of "Good morning/afternoon/evening Cadet (insert rank) [first name] [middle initial] [last name], [job title]." This can get pretty tedious if there are a lot of upperclassmen around. C4Cs would be expected to greet them in rank order, possibly in alphabetical order, and taking too long runs the risk of even more upperclassmen showing up. Other than the marching and the greeting, the C4Cs would not be able to talk in the hallways unless they are addressed by an upperclassmen or if they formally initiate a conversation with an upperclassmen. Some squadrons may impose additional requirements for their freshman while they are in the squadron area, many of which are likely "banned." For example, requiring C4Cs to do some sort of physical activity before entering the squadron area, or requiring them to "run racetracks" - essentially take a lap around the entire squadron hallway before entering their destination room, greeting all upperclassmen along the way.

"At ease" is a more relaxed position. The exact standard of "at ease" in this context probably changes from year to year and squadron to squadron. Generally, I would expect that the C4Cs would walk (not march) on the right side of the hallway. They may or may not need to greet upperclassmen. They still cannot talk unless a conversation is formally initiated with/by an upperclassmen.

"At rest" or "rest" would be the most relaxed position. Presumably C4Cs would be able to walk and talk freely in the squadron area.

The squadron area (hallways, common areas, cadet rooms) are where the cadets call home. Frankly, the fact that C4Cs would be expected to be at attention at all times in their home (of course, not in their own rooms) seems to me rather obnoxious. I support the change to "at rest" after 1745. We don't need to deprive people of common freedoms every waking moment of their lives to train effective leaders.

 

[Sully16]

AFrpaso - Thank you for the detailed explanation of “Attention”, “At ease”, and “At rest”. That is very interesting information and I appreciate you’re willingness to take the time to explain it to me.

 

[justme]

The phrasing is borrowed from drill and ceremonies. "Attention", "at ease", and "rest" are drill positions.

"Attention" is the most strict of the positions. C4Cs would be expected to march through the squadron staying on the right side of the hallway, execute facing movements, etc. They'd also be expected to "greet" upperclassmen as they are encountered in the hallway with something to the effect of "Good morning/afternoon/evening Cadet (insert rank) [first name] [middle initial] [last name], [job title]." This can get pretty tedious if there are a lot of upperclassmen around. C4Cs would be expected to greet them in rank order, possibly in alphabetical order, and taking too long runs the risk of even more upperclassmen showing up. Other than the marching and the greeting, the C4Cs would not be able to talk in the hallways unless they are addressed by an upperclassmen or if they formally initiate a conversation with an upperclassmen. Some squadrons may impose additional requirements for their freshman while they are in the squadron area, many of which are likely "banned." For example, requiring C4Cs to do some sort of physical activity before entering the squadron area, or requiring them to "run racetracks" - essentially take a lap around the entire squadron hallway before entering their destination room, greeting all upperclassmen along the way.

"At ease" is a more relaxed position. The exact standard of "at ease" in this context probably changes from year to year and squadron to squadron. Generally, I would expect that the C4Cs would walk (not march) on the right side of the hallway. They may or may not need to greet upperclassmen. They still cannot talk unless a conversation is formally initiated with/by an upperclassmen.

"At rest" or "rest" would be the most relaxed position. Presumably C4Cs would be able to walk and talk freely in the squadron area.

The squadron area (hallways, common areas, cadet rooms) are where the cadets call home. Frankly, the fact that C4Cs would be expected to be at attention at all times in their home (of course, not in their own rooms) seems to me rather obnoxious. I support the change to "at rest" after 1745. We don't need to deprive people of common freedoms every waking moment of their lives to train effective leaders.

That "attention" description sounds very similar to what I thought plebes dealt with at USNA. I am not understanding the differences stated earlier between what USAFA 4C and USNA 4C go through. Every example I have read seems to be similar.

 

[GoodRun]

That "attention" description sounds very similar to what I thought plebes dealt with at USNA. I am not understanding the differences stated earlier between what USAFA 4C and USNA 4C go through. Every example I have read seems to be similar.

Much of what USAFA does is patterned after USMA. I would say their training philosophies and practices have diverged a bit over the last few decades, but they probably still have more in common than not. I have less clarity on how USNA compares to USMA. I have a suspicion USCGA and USMMA are more like USNA.

 

[jack42405]

Much of what USAFA does is patterned after USMA. I would say their training philosophies and practices have diverged a bit over the last few decades, but they probably still have more in common than not. I have less clarity on how USNA compares to USMA. I have a suspicion USCGA and USMMA are more like USNA.

I would say that USAFA has been more similar to USNA, at least over the past few years. USNA and USAFA place much more emphasis on 4/c academic year training whereas Westpoint more so treats their plebes much more like regular cadets and have very little training outside of the summer. USCGA seems more like Westpoint where they are still strict on the 4/c but there is no physical training (My opinion as a USAFA cadet who went on an exchange to USCGA and who has a sister at USNA)

 

[skyfox]

I don't what how many would be "too many," but if it's enough to make leadership scrap training of this sort altogether, then perhaps USAFA ought to revisit how cadets are being selected for appointment. If the problem is really that bad.

There is also something to be said about how the staff and leaders are selected. Talent in executing the technical aspects of one's job or climbing the AF's professional ladder does not mean one is necessarily equipped with the skills to teach effectively. Often, it is the less ambitious who make the most capable teachers and mentors. Teaching is a selfless profession whose prerequisites are at odds with how the AF defines an "HPO."

 

[urbansailor]

In terms of training, this is a message I received from Group Training Staff (I am in my Squadron Training Staff):

"The reason the Comm is having every squad sign the form about hazing is because the Vice Comm heard rumor of a training session that included bed drills where the training staff was not also doing bed drills. Additionally this went until 0715, meaning the 4-degrees did not have time to eat. If that did happen, that is hazing; The punishment is disenrollment. If someone is suspected of hazing, their AOC will be in the Comm's office in service dress. The AOC will then walk through the allegations with the Commandant. If they both still believe it was hazing, that person will be disenrolled. Please do not get caught hazing; TO's are the bastion between a professional military and a regular college. We need you to stay in your job and follow the rules. We are fighting for you to get more freedom; we cannot do that if we are constantly being accused of hazing violations."

While I understand that hazing is not ok, the stretch of the definition of hazing has become almost a joke at this point. Can anyone tell me any kind of military training that is not hazing? Because apparently bed drills (having C4Cs remake beds due to infractions) is hazing if the Training Staff are not also doing so. LOL!

This is not the only thing considered hazing. Consider this year's training ROEs, or at least some of my personal favorites:

- "Assigning remedial training to an entire group based on the deficiencies of an individual or a few individuals" - because nothing screams teamwork more than "if you mess up, i don't care because i won't be punished!"

- "Requiring all Four-Degrees in a squadron to indiscriminately move rooms by a set timeline" - I guess having flexibility isn't the key to airpower after all.

- "Cadet Military Training events will not be designed with the primary objective to reach physical conditioning goals." - obviously, USAF doesn't have a fitness problem. at all.

- "While conducting calisthenics... cadets shall not conduct more than 3 sets of each exercise. Each set shall not exceed 1 minute of work and shall be immediately followed by a period of rest equivalent to the period of work (1:1 ratio of work to rest)." - when you are in a war, you won't have to do physical activity longer than a minute.

- "If a low/high crawl event is incorporated [in training], all cadets (including upper class cadets) at the training event will conduct the low/high crawl, unless on a medical profile." - because it's clearly maltraining if you don't do it with them. Once a freshman, always a freshman. You just get to decide what the group does.

- "Cadets will not conduct the low or high crawl in snow or on wet, uneven, or rocky terrain." - after he escaped from a POW camp in Vietnam, Capt Lance P. Sijan only had to low crawl on a field flatter than Kansas. And when his captors tried to catch him, they had to low crawl too, because otherwise that wouldn't be fair!

- "At no time will the weight of the ruck exceed 20% of the individual's body weight." - when you are carrying survival equipment on a deployment, it'll never be heavier than (1/5)*[your body weight]. God takes care of the rest. Hope you can call in that 9-line, because you definitely won't have anything weighing more than a few books to help medically!

- "Lunges are not authorized indoors." - I can't find of a reason for this, not even a comical one unfortunately.

- "Squadrons are not authorized to require cadets to complete pushups/sit-ups upon entering/exiting the squadron area." - because we definitely don't have a fitness problem in USAF, and especially not at USAFA! How dare you suggest such a thing!

I have to finish a presentation for a class tomorrow, but my list could go on and on and on. Keep in mind that this doesn't include the unwritten rules that you can get in trouble for. Any physical training, bed drills, and supermans (rapid changing of uniforms due to infractions) must be done with the C4Cs.

Some squads are able to get away with doing real training, but it relies on a strong band of trust between upperclassmen and freshmen. If anyone spills, even unintentionally, it's GAME OVER for the training staff, the squad comm, and likely the AOC career-wise.

In short, USAFA leadership is asking Training staff to do their jobs with not one, but two hands tied behind their backs. And blindfolded too. It all reminds me of a story my Ac Advisor told me last year. When he was going through OTS, the MTIs were not allowed to yell at them because, for a very short while, yelling was deemed to be maltreatment. Doesn't that sound like a complete joke? That's what USAFA has turned into: a joke. Its remaining pillar left standing is academics, and sorry, but a lot of colleges besides USAFA do just as well or better in that field.

What's the purpose behind all of this? Well, we had some very *iconic* meetings with General Marks (who has only briefed us a total of 2 or 3 times... he's the least visible Commandant that I have witnessed so far) and many on Wing Staff were able to elicit that the main reason for so many C4C ROE changes was that "we aren't in Vietnam anymore, and we shouldn't be preparing freshmen to be in POW camps." Not kidding, that is word for word what one of my friends on Wing Staff told me. Because we totally aren't headed for near-peer conflict in the near future! Ah, yes, I remember... the US can't be in a near-peer conflict because we already had a War to end all Wars. So there isn't a risk of any POW camps, right? And we aren't ill-prepared for what a POW camp would look like, right?

I guess I am the spitting image of a fed-up, negative cadet... but I'm not the only one. Recent results from our DEOCS survey - the results of which were completely invalidated because we were coerced to take it by the Commandant by allowing those who took it to wear civvies to class on a few days - showed that morale across the wing had dropped some 30%. On top of that, several changes have been announced regarding future Training ROEs, a likely scrapping of Recognition altogether, and a new cadet pass system. All of these were wildly unpopular, but their impact could not be shown in the DEOCS because the survey deadline closed before the Commandant briefed us about them.

I simply refuse to accept that this is the way USAFA has been in the past. Sure, it may be a pendulum swing, but I highly doubt the pendulum has ever swung this far. This place is a shadow of a shell of what it used to be.

As a mid at USNA this seems really weird. Just in AC year not including plebe summer, we've moved rooms 3 times in a semester. Our physical training at the beginning of the semester was expressly to prepare us for the PRT, and after that it was to prepare us for SeaTrials. Morning workouts can last right up to before formation and there isn't a limit on calisthenics during those. For example we've bearcrawled across Hospital Point, duck-walked over a bridge, or ran laps with sand bags in the morning if training staff weren't happy. And for "beatdowns" training staff never joins the workout only watching.

We also have protections from old punishments that have been taken away over the years, so in my opinion they've found a good balance between training and safety/development here at USNA.

 

[BlueHen2005]

DD is a plebe at USNA - they just got word that they are switching rooms again. She’s not happy, would think packing up your stuff and moving quickly then adjusting to a new roommate is good training for life in the fleet or quick deployment. I don’t consider it hazing.

She doesn’t mind the Plebe PT, she just took the PRT this weekend and came within 2 push ups of maxing out. Her big thing is the upper class not in the dirt participating- if you’re a male, and she’s beating you in the PRT, get your butt next to her and start doing bearcrawls and carry sand babies because you are getting beat by someone who shouldn‘t be beating you. Her attitude is if you’re not maxing the PRT, you need to be out with plebes training to max it.

 

[AFrpaso]

As a mid at USNA this seems really weird.

It just means that "the pendulum" at USNA is not synced with "the pendulum" at USAFA.

 

[A1Janitor]

DD is a plebe at USNA - they just got word that they are switching rooms again. She’s not happy, would think packing up your stuff and moving quickly then adjusting to a new roommate is good training for life in the fleet or quick deployment. I don’t consider it hazing.

She doesn’t mind the Plebe PT, she just took the PRT this weekend and came within 2 push ups of maxing out. Her big thing is the upper class not in the dirt participating- if you’re a male, and she’s beating you in the PRT, get your butt next to her and start doing bearcrawls and carry sand babies because you are getting beat by someone who shouldn‘t be beating you. Her attitude is if you’re not maxing the PRT, you need to be out with plebes training to max it.

Switching rooms more than doubled my son’s close friends.

The plebe morning workouts do not help with maxing events. That isn’t the purpose.

 

[asap.airman]

As a mid at USNA this seems really weird. Just in AC year not including plebe summer, we've moved rooms 3 times in a semester.

Switching rooms at USAFA, or “rapid redeployments” were used as group punishments. Typically you’d have to move into your room within a tight timeframe of 1-3 hours and often had little warning that it was coming. It would ruin your entire week, not to mention whatever you had planned for the day. Things like this were in place just a few months ago, only recently having changed this school year.

I don’t support most of the changes to the ROEs but i think banning this was the right move. I remember having classmates of mine walk into class crying because they received little sleep the night before, due to having to move their room within the time hack AND do their homework/chores for the night. Not sure if that’s how it’s administered at USNA, but this was just one of many group punishments that are now seen as hazing.

 

[navy27hopeful]

Switching rooms at USAFA, or “rapid redeployments” were used as group punishments. Typically you’d have to move into your room within a tight timeframe of 1-3 hours and often had little warning that it was coming. It would ruin your entire week, not to mention whatever you had planned for the day. Things like this were in place just a few months ago, only recently having changed this school year.

I don’t support most of the changes to the ROEs but i think banning this was the right move. I remember having classmates of mine walk into class crying because they received little sleep the night before, due to having to move their room within the time hack AND do their homework/chores for the night. Not sure if that’s how it’s administered at USNA, but this was just one of many group punishments that are now seen as hazing.

We've moved rooms 3 times last semester, and at MOST would have 3 hours. Usually they were doing room inspections 2 hours after telling us to move. Don't think its that big of a deal imo