Struggling Mid: Update

ab24

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Mar 21, 2019
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Hi all,

I am not sure if you remember my post later this year but I posted in regards to having second guesses about my career in ROTC. If you have not seen my post you can go back into my history and read it. If not, I can give a brief summary of what I'm dealing with currently.


Background: I am a freshman NROTC student at a large southern university. I did a year of PSEO credit at a small local Christian college my senior year and am currently majoring in computer science. I am also working in my county as a CSO with the sheriff's office there, which is partially contributing to my issue that I am having this year. I have been preparing for ROTC since as far back as 8th grade, and I am not sure if this is the best option for what I want to do anymore.

Before I get started, I would like to clarify that I have identified that my issue resides in what I want to do in the Navy and what the ROTC program has to offer. My initial unhappiness with the school went away after I became involved more on campus, but the nagging feeling that something wasn't right was still there. I came to this conclusion after talking to family, my classmates, a counselor, and career counselor. I do not want to give anyone the impression that the reason for me wanting to leave is not because "the military life isn't for me" which is what I have heard a lot from my classmates who have dropped this year so far. I do think the military is for me, and I am going to serve regardless of however this shakes out, enlisted or commissioned.


Anyways, here is the update:

After giving this problem enough time to know that my decision won't be a knee jerk reaction, I don't think continuing in NROTC will be the best option for me at this point. I feel like my heart is set on being a JAG and ROTC does not commission JAGs. I understand that many of you may say, "well you should have known this before joining," which is a valid point if I had gone into NROTC wanting to be a JAG, but that simply is not the case. I went to NSI thinking that I wanted to be a pilot, but this was long before I became involved in law enforcement. Working directly with the police has shown me how much there is a need for people want to go into that field and how much influence the courts have on the outcome of people's lives; good and bad. Freshman year of college is about finding out who you are and what you want to do, and I feel like this is part of the process. Over the last few months, I have been able to witness the good and absolute worst parts of working with the police which can be overwhelming while being a freshman in college and in ROTC. This does not mean I want to be a cop instead of the military, but rather I want to be in a position where I am in the best of both worlds, and that position is a JAG.


This has been one of the hardest decisions I have ever encountered in my life thus far, and by no means am I taking the implications of this lightly. In October, I made it a goal that I would exhaust every option I could as a college student to help me make this decision and I believe that I have. I have seen many of my classmates, contract and non contract, quit for reasons varying from mental health and simply not wanting to work as hard as ROTC demands. I do not believe I fit into either of those categories.

I know people can be quick to judge someone's decision in a situation like this and I absolutely want to get it across that my decision does not come from the difficulty or demanding nature of ROTC. I was ranked 3rd in my (decently large) class on my FITREP, maintained a 3.6+ GPA, stayed involved in 2 clubs, was a member on two drill teams, did color guard numerous times, and managed to volunteer well over 150 hours in my first semester with little to no issues keeping this schedule up. To put it this way, I think the people who don't know I have been second guessing ROTC would be extremely surprised by that.

Despite being involved and having a genuinely good time with my shipmates in ROTC, I still cannot justify wasting more of the Navy's money on me when my heart isn't in commissioning as an unrestricted line officer. At this point, I am really only waiting to notify cadre about where I am at but I do not want them to get the impression that I am going to be working less hard because I don't see myself continuing in ROTC. I am going to work just as hard through the end as I did at the beginning of the semester.

With this, my last question is how this decision will affect my future chances of commissioning as a JAG. I know that it is generally frowned upon to leave ROTC but I know with how I have performed this year that I would be leaving my unit on good terms with the cadre and upperclassmen.


Feel free to ask any questions, this post was kind of thrown together.
 
Here's some free "mom advice" if you want it, I am sitting on the bus waiting to hear from USNA for DS, so here it goes....

It is great you spent time learning about/refining your life goals - excellent sign of maturity. You are having experiences that are shaping and developing your talents in a field you wish to peruse.... excellent again! THAT BEING SAID.... Are you able to switch majors to something that will help you commission to JAG at a later date while still keeping the NROTC Scholarship?

There is a lot to say about 'keeping the course' and you will never, ever regret having that college degree!. You've switched once, maybe you will switch again? JAG may not be all you think it is.... and if it is , then it wouldn't hurt going into JAG with a degree and a 5-year service commitment under your belt.

You must not be 100000% set, otherwise you would not post on the forum. You owe nothing to anyone buy yourself, but since you asked, I say your 35-year old self will look back and thank you for taking this 'little detour' and graduating college, commissioning, then move over to JAG.

Best of luck to you!
 
Here is MY mom advice (NOT on a bus waiting to hear from USNA for DS)

"It is great you spent time learning about/refining your life goals - excellent sign of maturity. You are having experiences that are shaping and developing your talents in a field you wish to peruse.... excellent again! THAT BEING SAID.... Are you able to switch majors to something that will help you commission to JAG at a later date while still keeping the NROTC Scholarship?

There is a lot to say about 'keeping the course' and you will never, ever regret having that college degree!. You've switched once, maybe you will switch again? JAG may not be all you think it is.... and if it is , then it wouldn't hurt going into JAG with a degree and a 5-year service commitment under your belt.

You must not be 100000% set, otherwise you would not post on the forum. You owe nothing to anyone buy yourself, but since you asked, I say your 35-year old self will look back and thank you for taking this 'little detour' and graduating college, commissioning, then move over to JAG".

GREAT advice, imo. I would add, that in 10 years, this time spent getting your degree won't hardly be a blip on your radar of life. and even less of one the older you get. Currently, it ALL CONSUMING to you and you probably feel like another 4 or 5 years is forever. It's not. It won't be.
 
I expect that serving as an unrestricted line officer would make you a better JAG officer later. You need your bachelor degree in any case and can probably start your law degree while serving your obligation on active duty. Just my 2 cents. No one can say you didn't do your homework on this decision.
 
You are in your freshman year, yes? I am sure you know that is your free year, and you can walk away from NROTC with no obligation to repay. The system is designed that way to allow for changes of heart and mind. No stigma.

The question I like to ask is, are you running FROM something or TO something? If you are running TO, and know your goal, you are already making active and practical action plans to withdraw from ROTC at semester end, thinking about expressing appreciation and burning no bridges with your unit, figuring out how you are going to pay for your undergraduate degree and law school, talking it through with family to understand any additional stresses placed on them, doing the research on the JAG community to understand what they do.

A JAG direct commission program will look at your academic performance as an undergraduate and law school student, and overall suitability to commission, medically, physically, etc. If you performed well and honorably in your year of ROTC, and left voluntarily because you decided unrestricted line is not for you, the bit of military training will demonstrate some understanding of Navy culture and mission.

To second some of the points made above, you are not teetering on the edge of the grave if you go to law school in your later 20s. Top performance as an unrestricted line officer gives you a shot at applying for the Navy Law Education program, law school on the Navy’s dime, and lateral transfer into the JAG Corps wearing a warfare pin, which distinguishes you from the majority of JAGs.

As @kinnem notes, you can use Tuition Assistance to work on advanced degrees, in accordance with current policy, after-hours or online. If you use Navy money, you will incur additional obligated service. If you don’t, then no obligation. It is hard to do this, juggling full-time military duty with after-hours, but it can be done, depending on your URL path. If you managed to obtain a law degree this way, then you can apply for lateral transfer per applicable policy.

Just to be clear, you can apply for a lateral transfer, but it is highly competitive, and needs of the Navy will always rule every decision. Your warfare community must have the endstrength to let you go, the law school funds have to be sufficient, and the JAG Corps must want you.

If you are absolutely convinced you do not want to be URL and would not be happy, then as a former commanding officer, I can say that unhappy JOs who yearned to be anywhere else but in their present situation, and their hearts and minds were not there for their sailors, their shipmates and their unit, always presented a leadership and morale challenge. That division always knew their officer was not 100% there for them, and it’s usually poisonous in some degree to the team culture.

There is no way of knowing how the journey of your life will go, what twists and turns it will take. You will likely never have 100% of the information you need to make major decisions. Whatever you do, think it through, commit and get on with it.
 
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I am a former military line officer, finished active duty, went to law school, and have been a lawyer for well over 20 years. Half of that time was in criminal practice, both sides. (I now do something different in the law.) Here is my advice:

1) Time as a line officer is not wasted no matter what you end up doing thereafter. Trust me on this one. If after 3-5 years of active duty you still want to be a lawyer, then go be a lawyer. Maybe the Navy will even pay for it! But in the meantime learn and experience leadership and teamwork. It is incredibly value, and there are few if any better places to learn it than as a junior officer.

2) Don't assume that being a JAG is at all similar to being, for example, a state prosecutor. You seem to have a desire to work to improve peoples' lives. While noble, that isn't what JAGs do.

3) Think very carefully before going to law school. It is a massive expenditure (unless someone else is footing the bill) without terribly secure job prospects these days. This goes back to point 1, that spending time as a JO will help you really know if you want to be a lawyer, and (again, trust me on this), if you do end up going to law school, make you a better law student than you would otherwise be.
 
I appreciate everyone's responses.

I've noticed there has been a trend in asking why I do not just continue with ROTC and lat transfer after my initial service obligation. My reasoning behind this boils down two to things:

1. I feel like if I entered a URL commission with the intent of lat transferring, I would be carrying the mentality of "the grass is greener on the other side" and my five years would be felt as just a waiting period to do the job I have always wanted to do. If I have learned anything in ROTC, is that officers must be 100% in and if not, you should be 100% out. Now, many people could argue that you can adjust attitude which is true, but I don't think you can adjust passion in that respect. I don't feel like it would be ethically correct for me to approach a career with the sole intention of leaving it. Along with this, I have talked to many Mids who have told me that they want out but are too far in to DOR without serious consequences. I don't want to be that Mid for the sake of the sailors I would lead and for my own sake.

2. From what I have gathered, the approval rate for lat transfers from surface to JAG is significantly lower than if I applied directly out of civilian law school. My biggest fear about this is if I stay in ROTC, work for my law degree while in my five year period, and apply only to get denied, that would put me in a significantly more difficult situation to navigate than if I just decided to do law school first, then apply to be a JAG.


In this, I don't feel like I'm running from something. If I had left in October when I initially had felt this way I would say I definitely would be. However, I have dedicated myself to exploring as many resources as I humanly can to understand whether or not my decision is sound. The stress of ROTC has been small in comparison to some of the things i've witnessed with the police and I can tell you that once you experience calls like car accidents, domestics, and such you feel like you're capable of handling a lot more than the typical stress of being a Mid.
 
would this be your path to JAG: stay in college, drop ROTC, get a pre-law degree, go to law school, then apply to OCS and commission into the navy at that point? if paying for your own college and post grad degrees is not an issue then this seems like the most assured path to get there. but i dont know if this is correct or not...just clarifying how to become a JAG.
 
would this be your path to JAG: stay in college, drop ROTC, get a pre-law degree, go to law school, then apply to OCS and commission into the navy at that point? if paying for your own college and post grad degrees is not an issue then this seems like the most assured path to get there. but i dont know if this is correct or not...just clarifying how to become a JAG.
OCS is meant primarily for unrestricted line officers, same as USNA and NROTC. No JAGs out of OCS.

The majority of military JAGs go to civilian undergraduate and law schools, and come in via direct commission. They apply for JAG, get commissioned, then go to post-commission officer indoc course at Newport, RI, and any subsequent required training. Their classmates at indoc are other staff corps such as doctors, nurses, etc.
 
would this be your path to JAG: stay in college, drop ROTC, get a pre-law degree, go to law school, then apply to OCS and commission into the navy at that point? if paying for your own college and post grad degrees is not an issue then this seems like the most assured path to get there. but i dont know if this is correct or not...just clarifying how to become a JAG.


Somewhat, yes. As Capt MJ said JAGs do not go to OCS but your idea is there. My plan would be to go to a different university, double major in computer science and criminal justice (I have credits towards both of these majors), then apply for law school from there. I am trying to stray away from an undergraduate degree that focuses on law school because law school admission isn't dependent on your major. After that I would apply for the direct commision from there granted my grades are up to par and I have field-related experience to boot. I am planning on applying for internships to the FBI and INTERPOL in the following years and my fingers are crossed that I get them.

As for tuition, I am blessed enough to have avenues to get my undergrad and law degree paid for outside of the military. I knew this going into ROTC so contracting as a Mid was more for what I wanted to do in the Navy and less about the great scholarship it offered.

I believe that I have a good idea of my academic capabilities at this point and I'm fairly confident that I would leave my undergrad with a 3.7+ GPA if I went the civilian route.
 
3) Think very carefully before going to law school. It is a massive expenditure (unless someone else is footing the bill) without terribly secure job prospects these days. This goes back to point 1, that spending time as a JO will help you really know if you want to be a lawyer, and (again, trust me on this), if you do end up going to law school, make you a better law student than you would otherwise be.

This is great advice (I'm an attorney as well). Law schools are cranking out tons of lawyers every year and jobs are EXTREMELY competitive. I'm sure JAG is just as, if not more, competitive. If you really want to go JAG, then I'd recommend staying in ROTC, fulfilling your service obligation and then going to law school. It will make you much more attractive for legal jobs and I'm sure it would give you a slight leg up on getting into JAG down the line (definitely couldn't hurt your chances).
 
Somewhat, yes. As Capt MJ said JAGs do not go to OCS but your idea is there. My plan would be to go to a different university, double major in computer science and criminal justice (I have credits towards both of these majors), then apply for law school from there. I am trying to stray away from an undergraduate degree that focuses on law school because law school admission isn't dependent on your major. After that I would apply for the direct commision from there granted my grades are up to par and I have field-related experience to boot. I am planning on applying for internships to the FBI and INTERPOL in the following years and my fingers are crossed that I get them.

As for tuition, I am blessed enough to have avenues to get my undergrad and law degree paid for outside of the military. I knew this going into ROTC so contracting as a Mid was more for what I wanted to do in the Navy and less about the great scholarship it offered.

I believe that I have a good idea of my academic capabilities at this point and I'm fairly confident that I would leave my undergrad with a 3.7+ GPA if I went the civilian route.
What is your “Plan B, C” if this doesn’t go as planned?
 
Plan B would be use my stem degree and go into the computer science field or enlist/apply to OCS.

Plan C would mainly focus on practicing law civilian side as a defense attorney or another similar avenue.

I specifically chose Computer Science and Criminal Justice to be my double major because it would give me a lot of open doors to walk through in the event that my primary plan fell through. There is a lot of things you can do with a computer science degree in and outside the military (i.e. web development, cyber security, computer forensics, data rights, etc.) so I am confident that it would serve me best to have that as a safety net.
 
Sounds like you have it all figured out. Good luck to you!!
 
Plan B would be use my stem degree and go into the computer science field or enlist/apply to OCS.

Plan C would mainly focus on practicing law civilian side as a defense attorney or another similar avenue.

I specifically chose Computer Science and Criminal Justice to be my double major because it would give me a lot of open doors to walk through in the event that my primary plan fell through. There is a lot of things you can do with a computer science degree in and outside the military (i.e. web development, cyber security, computer forensics, data rights, etc.) so I am confident that it would serve me best to have that as a safety net.
All the “ABC” agencies have excellent HS and college programs. You may find your way of serving via a different path. Just be open to the journey. You have another 70-80 years on the planet.
 
Would leaving ROTC at this point be a negative look to those agencies though? I'm trying to make the best out of this situation by leaving on good terms but I'm not sure how other organizations would view that.
 
Would leaving ROTC at this point be a negative look to those agencies though? I'm trying to make the best out of this situation by leaving on good terms but I'm not sure how other organizations would view that.

Re-read @Capt MJ ‘s post up above a few times ^. .... I’ve been on this form for a year and a half and think her advice is absolutely priceless 🙌🏻 My favorite paragraph is this one quoted below :


There is no way of knowing how the journey of your life will go, what twists and turns it will take. You will likely never have 100% of the information you need to make major decisions. Whatever you do, think it through, commit and get on with it.
 
Thank you. I often hear my mom’s and grandma’s voice in my head, as well as many officers and senior enlisted who mentored me, often with tough love.
 
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