The "War" on Terrorism

[Zaphod]

"Yeah, and this is why modern wars have solved nothing."

Just Warfare has been around much longer than Vietnam. Machiavelli layed the groundwork in The Prince and it has been refined ever since.

Yet above you suggested that Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki would have been war crimes had we lost. So which is it? Are you suggesting that a "just" war is defined only by the winners? If so, then my argument that we should WIN first has just been strengthened. Thanks!

This is an ethics issue that our operational commanders deal with when planning individual operations.

That's bull and you know it. As soon as some do-gooder politician trying to make a name for himself gets a hold of the story, all hell breaks loose and the individuals on the ground are left in the lurch. Look at that Marine Captain who got a prisoner to talk on the battlefield by holding a gun to the head of the prisoner. The prisoner was in posession of information that would save or cost the lives of this officer's troops RIGHT THEN, and he needed the info RIGHT THEN. He got it, and his men survived. How was this man, who was simply protecting his men, get rewarded? Assholes like Murtha and the rest tried to have him court-martialed for it! "Decided by operational commanders" my ass!

Zap . how can we CRUSH an enemy we can't even locate? In modern anti-terrorist warfare, we have to identify the enemy before we can contain, isolate, and defeat him. Our enemy is somewhere on the Afghani-Pakastani border and we are diverting our resources in a civil war, creating more terrorists.

Utter crap and you know it. The enemy is in IRAQ now, unless you believe that all the yahoos running around that country claiming to be Al Qaeda are all lying.

We do not create terrorists by fighting them. Using your logic, we created the kamikazes by fighting our way across the Pacific, so we should have stopped at Midway. Fighting any further only emboldened the enemy, created more of them, and cost us lives we needn't have thrown away. Let's indict MacArthur, Nimitz, and Roosevelt posthumously and charge them with war crimes. After all, that's what they want to do to Bush.

Whether you and those on your side want to admit it or not (funny thing, because the enemy seems to get it if their intercepted communications are any indication) IRAQ is now the main battlefield in the war on terrorism. Either our movement (liberty) or theirs (sharia law) will emerge victorious, and every terrorist in the world is either there or trying to get us to lose THERE, because THAT'S where it's going to be decided. If we cut and run, it will be a million times worse than Somalia, and Somalia gave us 9/11 (by Bin Laden's own admission).

And wat is your point about finding them? What do you mean we "can't" find them? We're finding them and killing them all over the world, or do you think our troops are simply being killed off one by one without them giving any in return? Since we "can't know" where they are, are we supposed to just come back to America and wait for them to hit us AGAIN? Even if they ARE in Pakistan, we have been forbidden to send troops into that country to get them. Are you saying that if BinLaden is there, we should send troops into an allied country against their will (I wonder how THAT would play on the much-vaunted "Arab Street"?)? Where is all your concern for international law, then? Is it only a concern when it's being used against US?

One other thing, the reason we "can't find" them is because every time we try, a certain political persuasion in this country has a collective fit. We can't profile in airports. We can't listen to communications by terrorists into or out of this country. We can't monitor financial transactions. We can't interrogate them with anything more impressive than a polite smile. For all you people who love to get up on the soapbox and demand explanations as to why we can't find the terrorists, LOOK IN THE *******ED MIRROR!

And we've found PLENTY, thank you very much, and we've either sent them off to rub their souls up against Satan's backside or we've thrown them into prison, where we treat them better than their mothers ever did yet STILL get accused of "torturing" them.

Yeah, we expect to win fighting this way. Sure.

 

[USNA69]

LOOK IN THE *******ED MIRROR!

I don't know where to start. This may be the subject of my doctoral thesis. But I will get back to you on all of it. Don't you think the above comment was a little too personal, below the belt, and totally uncalled for? But what should I expect from someone who wants to nuke the entire Middle East? You really don't know anything about me.

 

[Zaphod]

That was written poorly. It was meant toward the folks who spew that crap out as official policy, not at you personally.

Sorry.

I'm just tired of hearing that nothing we are doing is working or the right thing, because it is blatantly false. Have mistakes been made? Sure; tons. It happens in wars and in policies, but it is NOT the wholesale failure it is being sold as by people who are only out for themselves.

I got carried away. Again, my apologies. You're not at fault here. The Pelosis, Murthas, Carters, etc., are. We're playing with fire and they're playing with power, and I simply have no patience for that.

You were right about one thing, brother: I am black and white, or more importantly right and wrong. I don't apologize for that, though.


ETA: BTW, I don't want to nuke the entire Middle East, but if I had to do it to keep this country safe and what we believe in alive, I'd do it. I don't apologize for that, either.

ETAA: And now you also know why I hate the sleaze of politics and why I avoid discussing them with my classmates if there is a chance of disagreement. A) we're not going to solve whatever problems there are, and B) we've been through too much together to let the decisions of others come between us.

It's a horrid world we live in.

 

[USNA69]

You keep mentioning past wars and the blood that was shed to win those wars. Why did our forefathers and our brothers and sisters go to war? Why did I go to Vietnam twice? Why did I spend 20 years at the tip of the spear, my life on the line, helping to defeat communism? For freedom of speech, for freedom of choice. Yes, even so someone could burn an American flag in protest, and others would have the freedom of speech to protest even that. So that you can say anything you want on this forum and only have to suffer my insignificant wrath. No one will knock on your door and carry you away and torture you for saying what you think, no matter, to me, how absurd some of it sounds. Zap, we have a choice. We get to choose our leaders. We get to critique them. We get to hold them accountable. Right, wrong, or indifferent to you, that is what makes this country great, that is what makes it worth fighting for.

In the black and white analogy when you carry it forward, or backward, to right and wrong. Surely, for every action, you don’t believe that there is only one correct reaction and all others are wrong. It’s the way some of your responses seem. There is probably one perfect reaction and one perfectly wrong reaction. In between the two, there are hundreds of choices, some better than others, some worse than others. We elected our leaders for their intelligence, their wisdom, and their ability to do the “right” thing. It is our constitutional right and our duty as a citizen to hold them accountable, to insist that they perform their mission in the best interest of everyone. Do we protest if we don’t have our way? Do we quit supporting the government, quit paying taxes, quit offering up our sons and daughters to defend it? No. But we darn well better be informed, express our views, and question when we feel that our money, our sons, and our daughters are being squandered unwisely.

When we all blindly jump on the bandwagon, and Nazi-like denounce all those who question even a small thing, that is when this country is in trouble.

Go to bed at night and thank God that we are able to have these conversations and even publish them in the newspaper if we could find one to print it.

 

[Zaphod]

Of course I am thankful, but agreeing with a policy doesn't mean that one has jumped on a bandwagon without thinking about it. Neither does opposing a policy mean that one isn't thinking about it.

Where I draw the line is when people oppose just for the sake of opposing. Far too much of what we hear today is blatant anti-American defeatism. It is not a difference of opinion on HOW to win, but whether we should be fighting at all, or if we even deserve to win. I am happy to believe that you do not fall into that category, unlike the moonbats I've bumped into on other sites.

If this country can no longer muster the gumption to fight off an avowed enemy and do it like it means it, then let us go the way of the Romans and clear the way for the next superpower. I'm sure that the naysayers I so despise will be quite happy to live under the Chinese boot, right up until they have to actually do so, of course, at which point they will whine about how we didn't do enough to stop them.

Sadly, guys like you and me, who may disagree with tactics and policy but still believe in American exceptionalism and liberty, will be forced to have to deal with the damage those other short-sighted fools will be wreaking in the name of getting power for themselves or some naive notion of coexistence with the enemy.

Tell me, brother, what have we accomplished here aside from being at each other's throats? Is Osama dead? Is Iraq pacified? Has radical Islam been torn asunder? No? Then why argue?

As you say, the people have a choice. Let them make it. They deserve whatever they get. As for me, I'll try and live my life the best I can and hope that one day we don't have to fight these assholes in our streets because we were too weak to fight them overseas. I'll pray that my daughters, who live in one of the largest cities in the country, don't someday eat a nuke because we wanted to negotiate with Iran or Korea instead of dealing with them up front.

I'm through arguing on the internet. It accomplishes nothing, and I have precious little time left on this miserable rock to waste on fruitless efforts.

Looking forward to friendlier threads with you, my friend....

 

[USNA69]

Actually, Zap, I enjoyed our little exchange. I did not consider us at each others throats. Maybe I find myself getting too liberal in my old age and like to bounce my ideas off a young intelligent well versed Academy mate who expresses himself well. Don't stop on my account. No hard feelings whatsoever on my part, unless you ask me to look in the mirror again.

I would not have invaded Iraq. However,right now I would be bombing Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, and any other country that harbored and supported terrorists. Very surgical very precise strikes with a well-defined message.

 

[Zaphod]

Maybe I find myself getting too liberal in my old age and like to bounce my ideas off a young intelligent well versed Academy mate who expresses himself well. Don't stop on my account. No hard feelings whatsoever on my part, unless you ask me to look in the mirror again.

Thank you, my friend. I'll be more careful in the future with the mirror comments.

I would not have invaded Iraq. However,right now I would be bombing Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, and any other country that harbored and supported terrorists. Very surgical very precise strikes with a well-defined message.

Aye, my friend! I would be, too. Saudi has its own underculture that breeds these vermin, and Syria is a festering boil we're going to have to lance off the planet someday. As for Iran, well, we've known about Iran since '79, haven't we?

I just wonder what the peaceniks would say if we actually went and did it.

 

[Zaphod]

And to give you an idea of what I mean by having limited time, a good online buddy of mine on another site, beloved by everyone there and one of that site's most prolific posters, a man who helped me through my divorce emotionally, spiritually, and legally, had a massive heart attack less than two hours after his last post yesterday. He's on life support in Plano, Texas with no brain activity.

Just like that.

Go to the Lord, Eric. You've done your part here.

 

[USNA69]

Ouch. Relish the hours you were able to spend with him. He and his family are in our thoughts and prayers.

 

[jamzmom]

Oh no Zaph... I am so so very sorry. I know you're going through this day in a fog of agony. Will think of you often today and of course of your friend & his family as well. It is special indeed to know such friends in life. Cherish your memories dear heart. I'm sorry.....

 

[Zaphod]

I am saddened to report that my online friend, Wayne Cobb, Jr., also known as the venerable EricTheHun, passed away this afternoon.

AR15.com, his online home, is in a state of shock and mourning.

If you love someone, go give them a hug. It may be your last chance.

RIP, Brother Eric. You were one of the good ones.

ETA: Reckon I hijacked your thread, dude. Sorry.