US Air Force Academy brawl injures 23
- Thread starter Polaris
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MN-Dad-2016
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Every football / hockey player walks on the field or ice knowing that their sport could keep them from going to flight school. Potentially they are one check or tackle away from a severe injury.
What's your broader point? Just say it.
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+1
We talked with our DS this weekend and he told us about the injuries. My DS had a blast as he grew closer to his wing and blew off some much needed steam.
The correct approach is to dial is back just a little. I'm very sure that is exactly what will happen next year.
+1
Our DS also seemed to enjoy it. At the end, he was hot, sweaty and had been hit with peanut butter but said it was fun.
My son is the 1st Sgt of one of the Squadrons, he was the target of the Doolies. He did not complain, and actually had a lot of fun with it. Lighten up. Unless you are there and part of it, you probably don't understand.
Dad
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Could be worse. They could have a more dangerous tradition like the Japanese Academy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNVkXNdH2mA
Lighten up? 27 cadets received injuries that they should not have received. Some of those injuries could have been career ending. I'm not saying to end the tradition but it has degraded in to a brawl.
Let's be honest the cadets are being trained to be professional officers and leaders and having this tradition turn into a free for all is not conduct becoming an officer.
Let's be honest the cadets are being trained to be professional officers and leaders and having this tradition turn into a free for all is not conduct becoming an officer.
Dad
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Bottom line is that parents have no say in the goings on at the Academy. They are part of the Air Force now. BGen Lengyel is dealing with the situation by basically telling the cadets to make it safe or no more First Snow/First Shirt.
MN-Dad-2016
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My son played hockey till his senior year. He got 2 broken collar bones and broken arm (compound fracture) and countless close calls including a skate blade cutting his neck. He went back on the ice after he healed. He got a concussion snowboarding with a helmet as he likes to bomb the hill and yet he joined the snowboard club. He broke his arm in football and he broke his toe on the diving board doing flips. Now he is trying out for the USAFA boxing team and I expect he will be bloodied up and probably a pending broken nose.
To answer your earlier question, if my DS got hurt he would be participate in this tradition the following year.
Should he lock himself in the room next year so he doesn't get hurt?My son played hockey till his senior year. He got 2 broken collar bones and broken arm (compound fracture) and countless close calls including a skate blade cutting his neck. He went back on the ice after he healed. He got a concussion snowboarding with a helmet as he likes to bomb the hill and yet he joined the snowboard club. He broke his arm in football and he broke his toe on the diving board doing flips. Now he is trying out for the USAFA boxing team and I expect he will be bloodied up and probably a pending broken nose.
To answer your earlier question, if my DS got hurt he would be participate in this tradition the following year.
Yes and those injuries could and most likely will impact his career and future in the Air Force.
Second so you'd have no problem with a 4th class popping your son in the jaw and breaking it causing a set back due to this tradition?
My son played hockey till his senior year. He got 2 broken collar bones and broken arm (compound fracture) and countless close calls including a skate blade cutting his neck. He went back on the ice after he healed. He got a concussion snowboarding with a helmet as he likes to bomb the hill and yet he joined the snowboard club. He broke his arm in football and he broke his toe on the diving board doing flips. Now he is trying out for the USAFA boxing team and I expect he will be bloodied up and probably a pending broken nose.
To answer your earlier question, if my DS got hurt he would be participate in this tradition the following year.
Please note no where do I say get rid of the tradition or lock oneself in their dorm. AFA is a professional miltary school and as such the staff should take appropriate measures to ensure that it does not degraded to the point where 27 people are injured.
My son played hockey till his senior year. He got 2 broken collar bones and broken arm (compound fracture) and countless close calls including a skate blade cutting his neck. He went back on the ice after he healed. He got a concussion snowboarding with a helmet as he likes to bomb the hill and yet he joined the snowboard club. He broke his arm in football and he broke his toe on the diving board doing flips. Now he is trying out for the USAFA boxing team and I expect he will be bloodied up and probably a pending broken nose.
To answer your earlier question, if my DS got hurt he would be participate in this tradition the following year.
I am with you. My son played 3 sports in HS. Played Lax and Boxed at USAFA, he has had 2 surgeries on one of his knees, a concussion from boxing last year, countless other contussions. Played football, wrestled, and Lacrosse his whole freshman year of HS with a broken thumb. These kids are going to be asked by our country to possibly give their lives, or may be injured in battle. They have to be tough. As I said earlier, if they are not tough, maybe they should be going somewhere else. In my eyes traditions is forges the bonds between generations of warriors.
At what point do traditions become hazing or unnecessarily violent.
LTGEN Chesty Puller spent his career stopping unprofessional behavior like this among marines.
Pima
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Polaris,
One word...CRUD!
Seriously, a snowball fight compared to playing Crud, which is an AF tradition, is like comparing a spitball through a straw to this snowball fight.
Maybe it got out of control, maybe this is a political correct issue, but honestly, what should we do for those cadets who want to be fliers? Wrap them up in bubble wrap for the next 15 yrs (4 in college, 1 at UPT and 10 commitment owed)?
Should they not have snowball fights ever, including 14 yrs from now when they are 32 with their own 5 yr old child?
It is a tradition, just like Crud, and every time somebody steps in to "protect" they are IMPO eroding the tradition of the AF.
Keep doing that and in a few yrs, they won't be allowed to toss their covers into the air at commissioning because OMG it could hit someone in their cranium.
Exaggeration, I know, but I think you get the point. Where does it end?
The it can be a career ender is BS to me. How many of those 27 cadets are DQ now? How many in yrs prior were DQ'd and lost a rated slot?
Like I said, go to an O'Club at a UPT/FTU base on a Friday night, watch a game of Crud, than come back and defend your position.
Key thing to understand regarding Crud...these are commissioned officers with rated slots, or are already rated (IP/ICSO) body slamming each other against walls, jumping onto a snooker table, running around it very fast, literally lifting bodies out of the way and throwing them away from the table.
I bet Flieger will tell you he'd rather take the snowball injury over the Crud injury. I know Bullet in his 20 yrs ADAF fighter world would!
One word...CRUD!
Seriously, a snowball fight compared to playing Crud, which is an AF tradition, is like comparing a spitball through a straw to this snowball fight.
Maybe it got out of control, maybe this is a political correct issue, but honestly, what should we do for those cadets who want to be fliers? Wrap them up in bubble wrap for the next 15 yrs (4 in college, 1 at UPT and 10 commitment owed)?
Should they not have snowball fights ever, including 14 yrs from now when they are 32 with their own 5 yr old child?
It is a tradition, just like Crud, and every time somebody steps in to "protect" they are IMPO eroding the tradition of the AF.
Keep doing that and in a few yrs, they won't be allowed to toss their covers into the air at commissioning because OMG it could hit someone in their cranium.
Exaggeration, I know, but I think you get the point. Where does it end?
The it can be a career ender is BS to me. How many of those 27 cadets are DQ now? How many in yrs prior were DQ'd and lost a rated slot?
Like I said, go to an O'Club at a UPT/FTU base on a Friday night, watch a game of Crud, than come back and defend your position.
Key thing to understand regarding Crud...these are commissioned officers with rated slots, or are already rated (IP/ICSO) body slamming each other against walls, jumping onto a snooker table, running around it very fast, literally lifting bodies out of the way and throwing them away from the table.
I bet Flieger will tell you he'd rather take the snowball injury over the Crud injury. I know Bullet in his 20 yrs ADAF fighter world would!
No he didn't. He spent his career winning campaigns, and making sure snot nosed officers gave the enlisted the respect they were due. I have read much about Gen Puller and have even gone to his gravesite to pay my respect.
This is not unprofessional behavior. It is a tradition among the cadets to blow off steam. As I stated before, my own son is one of the 1st Sgts which made him the target of this tradition. If he does not have a problem with it, why do you?
Tell your son or daughter that they have joined the military and that it sometimes gets a little rough. If he or she does not like a little rough house, maybe they should transfer into one of the Seven Sister Schools.
Pima
You miss the point, by the way it wasnt a snowball fight that caused the injuries. However as a taxpayer where these injuries happen I find in unacceptable. Also to say that there will never be an injury due to this is naive, if it continues to get out of control it is possible to have happen. Again it's a fine tradition as long as it does not get out of hand. With regard to CRUD yeah grab Assiniboin around a pool table is real violent!
You miss the point, by the way it wasnt a snowball fight that caused the injuries. However as a taxpayer where these injuries happen I find in unacceptable. Also to say that there will never be an injury due to this is naive, if it continues to get out of control it is possible to have happen. Again it's a fine tradition as long as it does not get out of hand. With regard to CRUD yeah grab Assiniboin around a pool table is real violent!
LTGEN Puller fought to ensure the fair and professional treatment of marines and a tradition that degrades into brawls would not have been tolerated because he knew an injured marine due to stupidity is useless.
This tradtion as it currently happens does not build professional leaders and officers.
I will ask you this, so you would have no problem if your son sustained a career ending injury due to the traditions current form. You would just shrug it off?
Pima
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Polaris said:
I have to ask, do you really see this as hazing?
Did your kids never have a snowball fight?
Do I think they may need to tone it back? Yes, but I don't see it as hazing.
Sorry, but IMPO if this is too much and you want to fly, especially fighters, I suggest you don't partake in the tradition because IMPO the instructors will eat you alive as their daily snack during UPT, FTU and as the FNG for your 1st operational tour.
Do the math. For every 100 UPT students, 70 will wing, and 5-10% will get fighters...basically @5 out of the original 100 pool.
This is a way to grow a thick skin.