USMA vs. USNA vs. USAFA Chances

O

Odin

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
10
I'm a junior and I got a 36 on my ACT when I took it in March, however, I did not take it with writing as my school did not offer it, so I would have to retake it or do the SAT this summer. I am leaning towards the SAT as sitting through 3 hours of the ACT just to take the writing portion sounds torturous. The problem is the registration due date is tomorrow, and I do not want to take another test. West Point is my third choice for an academy behind USAFA and USNA as I want to become a pilot, so I was wondering what are the odds that I get denied from USAFA and USNA but get accepted into West Point? Any information you guys can provide would be very helpful! Thank you!
 
It's really impossible to tell as it depends too much on your profile. Even if you provided us with your full profile I probably wouldn't be able to make a sound judgement, but the qualifications are pretty similar AFAIK. If you're qualified for one you're likely qualified for the other two, it's mostly dependent on how many applicants there are to each one.

If you got a 36 on the ACT, I would highly recommend taking the ACT again. USMA superscores the ACT so retaking it again and again is hugely beneficial. As for the frustration of the grind, as callous as it sounds you just have to deal with it. It'll be far from the hardest thing you have to do to get through a service academy, and it will be worth it. A 36 overqualified you academically. I got in with a 32 overall score, the average is 29-30.

Another thing to consider as a final alternative. You can be a pilot through West Point. Two possible routes:

1. Branch aviation. This is likely going to be pretty easy to achieve if you get into USMA as the aviation contract time was extended to 15 years, so it's becoming less and less competitive with cadets because many don't think the commitment is worth it.
2. Cross commission. You can cross-commission into any DOD uniformed service, including the Air Force. It's hard and very few cadets get it,but it is possible.
 
nomad556 said:
It's really impossible to tell as it depends too much on your profile. Even if you provided us with your full profile I probably wouldn't be able to make a sound judgement, but the qualifications are pretty similar AFAIK. If you're qualified for one you're likely qualified for the other two, it's mostly dependent on how many applicants there are to each one.

If you got a 36 on the ACT, I would highly recommend taking the ACT again. USMA superscores the ACT so retaking it again and again is hugely beneficial. As for the frustration of the grind, as callous as it sounds you just have to deal with it. It'll be far from the hardest thing you have to do to get through a service academy, and it will be worth it. A 36 overqualified you academically. I got in with a 32 overall score, the average is 29-30.

Another thing to consider as a final alternative. You can be a pilot through West Point. Two possible routes:

1. Branch aviation. This is likely going to be pretty easy to achieve if you get into USMA as the aviation contract time was extended to 15 years, so it's becoming less and less competitive with cadets because many don't think the commitment is worth it.
2. Cross commission. You can cross-commission into any DOD uniformed service, including the Air Force. It's hard and very few cadets get it,but it is possible.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your advice! An yeah I know the grind is gonna suck I was just hoping to take one thing off my plate if possible, but you think if I get denied from two I will get denied from all three? Also how does cross commissioning work? I have heard of it, but have not been able to find any real information on it. Thanks again!
 
Odin said:
Thanks for your advice! An yeah I know the grind is gonna suck I was just hoping to take one thing off my plate if possible, but you think if I get denied from two I will get denied from all three? Also how does cross commissioning work? I have heard of it, but have not been able to find any real information on it. Thanks again!
Click to expand...
Congrats on a great ACT score! However, no one on this board can make determinations as to how competitve a candidate you will be as we do not work for admissions. Also, SAs look at much more than standardized test scores. If you look around on this forum, you'll see many examples of high standardized testers that did not secure appointments and many who do. Each SA does admissions independently but they all value the same things. They are also looking to build classes based on a whole host of characteristics. This adds to the mystery of admissions to us outsiders and makes it even harder to know if a candidate will get into a particular SA.

Cross-commissioning is very difficult to do at service academies. You should not attend USMA unless you are willing to serve in the Army. While you can look into cross-commissioning late in your cadet career, the odds are low that it will be approved. Most of the factors surrounding cross-commissioning are out of the cadet's control.

Back to the original question, you could just take the SAT but in order to send your ACT in to USMA, you must have a writing score. I'd just take the ACT again if I were you. With superscoring, you have nothing to lose in the main score portion.
 
Cross commissioning does occur. Rules change, but typically you must work to 'find' a cadet at USAFA or USNA that wants to trade spots and come into the Army. It is rare since most students spending fours year wearing an Army (or AF or Navy) uniform do not consider making the move. In the instances that I have seen, the schools have a contact that works with you to arrange the 'trade' to the other service. As an LO, one of my students moved to the Navy from USAFA. He had a pilot training slot in the AF, but the Navy would not assure him of a pilot slot in the Navy until the transfer was completed. Ultimately, he earned a Navy pilot training slot, and flew an F-14. And, oh, by the way, he became a Blue Angel too.

Several of my classmates moved to other services, including the Navy, Army and Marines. My squadron mate had a family legacy in the Army (father and grandfather were Army retired) so they allowed him to cross-commission from USAFA into the Army without a 'trade' with a West Point graduate. Again, rules change, but cross commissioning is a possible move for you in the future.
 
Last edited:
Odin said:
I'm a junior and I got a 36 on my ACT when I took it in March, however, I did not take it with writing as my school did not offer it, so I would have to retake it or do the SAT this summer. I am leaning towards the SAT as sitting through 3 hours of the ACT just to take the writing portion sounds torturous. The problem is the registration due date is tomorrow, and I do not want to take another test. West Point is my third choice for an academy behind USAFA and USNA as I want to become a pilot, so I was wondering what are the odds that I get denied from USAFA and USNA but get accepted into West Point? Any information you guys can provide would be very helpful! Thank you!
Click to expand...
You've got to be willing to do work. This includes testing more than once. Not much sacrifice in the grand scheme of things.
Depending on where you live, your Congressman and Senators may require you to rank your choices of SAs for Nomination. Here in N.TX our Congressman will only nominate a candidate for one Service Academy. Usually the first choice. Same with our Senators in Texas.
If this is also the case where you live, then obviously you know what to do.
If you're eligible for Presidential nomination then take it for all the Academies you really wish to attend.
But No nomination=no application.
You may just consider Not applying to USMA. And if you don’t get into USAFA or USNA, then apply to them again, while attending a college! Or better yet, self-prep in a Service Academy Prep program at MMI or GMC. (To many young people seem to be in too big of a hurry).
Have you considered the USCGA? No nominations are required, and they send a very high percentage of graduates to pilot school.
Good Luck to you! Your ACT score rocks! You ought to be willing to sit for it once more, if You want to attend a Service Academy badly enough. I hope the rest of your credentials are very well rounded. If not, focus on those. Think Leadership rolls in extracuriculars and community service work. Take Charge!
 
Odin said:
I'm a junior and I got a 36 on my ACT when I took it in March, however, I did not take it with writing as my school did not offer it, so I would have to retake it or do the SAT this summer. I am leaning towards the SAT as sitting through 3 hours of the ACT just to take the writing portion sounds torturous. The problem is the registration due date is tomorrow, and I do not want to take another test. West Point is my third choice for an academy behind USAFA and USNA as I want to become a pilot, so I was wondering what are the odds that I get denied from USAFA and USNA but get accepted into West Point? Any information you guys can provide would be very helpful! Thank you!
Click to expand...
Can't speak intelligently on how you will do with admissions for the academies but from my experience, USMA had the easiest academic standards but was tougher on the leadership side. USAFA was quite the opposite as they had high academic standards but lower demands on the leadership side. Either way both are SAs and preferably you should be well rounded. 36 ACT will help you tremendously for any SAs but if academics is your strength, I think you'll perform better at USAFA than USMA. It is generally known that school at USMA is relatively "easier" than USAFA.
 
Too your primary question - the odds of getting accepted or denied based on just knowing your ACT score is impossible to guess. You obviously have an outstanding ACT score, but there is a reason the academies use the Whole Candidate Score (WCS) methodology for assessing candidates. There is also no way of knowing who you may be competing against in your area.

As for the discussion about pilots, there are excellent opportunities (though competitive) to become a pilot in the Army just as with Navy or the Air Force.
 
USMAZoo98 said:
Too your primary question - the odds of getting accepted or denied based on just knowing your ACT score is impossible to guess. You obviously have an outstanding ACT score, but there is a reason the academies use the Whole Candidate Score (WCS) methodology for assessing candidates. There is also no way of knowing who you may be competing against in your area.

As for the discussion about pilots, there are excellent opportunities (though competitive) to become a pilot in the Army just as with Navy or the Air Force.
Click to expand...
AND the Coast Guard! 😉
 
foxtail1027 said:
USMA had the easiest academic standards but was tougher on the leadership side. USAFA was quite the opposite as they had high academic standards but lower demands on the leadership side.
Click to expand...
@foxtail1027, how do you know this? Have you seen empirical evidence using official data endorsed by the SAs? Or spoken with admissions officials from both SAs who said on the record that this is the case?

Or are you basing your conclusion on anecdotes, hear-say, rumors, scuttlebutt or some “conventional wisdom”? I’ve been on SAF for a long while, and have kids who applied to the DOD SAs. But have never heard what you say above in any conclusive fashion.
 
MidCakePa said:
@foxtail1027, how do you know this? Have you seen empirical evidence using official data endorsed by the SAs? Or spoken with admissions officials from both SAs who said on the record that this is the case?

Or are you basing your conclusion on anecdotes, hear-say, rumors, scuttlebutt or some “conventional wisdom”? I’ve been on SAF for a long while, and have kids who applied to the DOD SAs. But have never heard what you say above in any conclusive fashion.
Click to expand...
Yes I have spoken to admissions officials and they confirmed that USAFA focuses more on academics than other aspects. Also if you look at USMA's WCS point distribution, you can find out they are a lot higher points allotted to leadership/sports than USAFA. Same thing applies to classes at the respective academies. USAFA's academic classes generally have around 70% to 80% of their total course points for GRs (exams). USMA's classes have much higher homework points and less WPR (exam) points where WPRs and finals add up to around 50 to 60%.
 
foxtail1027 said:
Yes I have spoken to admissions officials and they confirmed that USAFA focuses more on academics than other aspects. Also if you look at USMA's WCS point distribution, you can find out they are a lot higher points allotted to leadership/sports than USAFA. Same thing applies to classes at the respective academies. USAFA's academic classes generally have around 70% to 80% of their total course points for GRs (exams). USMA's classes have much higher homework points and less WPR (exam) points where WPRs and finals add up to around 50 to 60%.
Click to expand...
You have spoken to admissions officials is your source for this information? Who are these well-learned officials who know everything about all of the service academies? Claiming one service academy has higher academic standards than another is nonsense in my view, but that's just my opinion. I'm sure my West Point cadet majoring in Mech Engineering and working his butt off would disagree with your take on the academic standards of USMA.
 
MidCakePa said:
@foxtail1027, how do you know this? Have you seen empirical evidence using official data endorsed by the SAs? Or spoken with admissions officials from both SAs who said on the record that this is the case?

Or are you basing your conclusion on anecdotes, hear-say, rumors, scuttlebutt or some “conventional wisdom”? I’ve been on SAF for a long while, and have kids who applied to the DOD SAs. But have never heard what you say above in any conclusive fashion.
Click to expand...

I am just one data point. But I heard USNA is the best.
 
A1Janitor said:
How much benefit can a superscore help someone with a 36?
Click to expand...
Since USMA requires the essay on the ACT, he can retake the ACT to get an essay score without having to worry about how he does on the rest of the test. If he takes the SAT to get out of the ACT essay, he'll be starting from scratch scorewise.
 
Too many factors involved to gauge anything solid. Some senatorial offices coordinate to make sure they don't double up on names, some only put a name on one academy list, some states have low enough demand to make your chances clear and other districts are intensely competitive. And that's all before looking at the individual institutions and what they want or need.

So your main concern right now should be taking a bit of an inventory and verify your priorities and commitment to this. You don't want to take a test that you've already shown an ability to smoke? That sounds weaker than you might intend. The journey to an appointment is long, winding, and semi-intentionally arduous. There will be hoops to jump through, lines to stand in, endless forms, a basketball throw, multiple interviews and an utterly opaque decision process that will only yield a green checkmark (or not) at the end of the road. Once you get in you may not be allowed to be a pilot. If you fail the rigorous physical you're out. If you don't manage the class rank to earn a choice you could be out. You may even decide that it's not for you and then you have to choose from what's left for your career. My point isn't to dissuade you from applying, but to have a broader view of the services and what is important to you. Is serving as an officer your top priority? Is it flying? Is it wearing those sweet Navy blues or a big old baggy flight suit? As those factors come into focus you might find that the Coast Guard makes a lot more sense than the Army (if piloting is more important) or Air Force/Navy are your clear #1 and #2 (if you want pointy jets and guns). If you want a longer post-military career then the various lengths of service commitments become more important.

Can you get into only one of three big SAs? Sure, happens all the time. Will it happen to you? Can't say, but consider this: what if it did? Would you be good with West Point and a shot at Army aviation or would you prefer to come back around for a second shot at ASAFA or USNA and their more prolific and Rubenesque flight options. The answer lives within your priorities, hence the need to lay things out now. (Also a good skill for the rest of your life. Things should change over the years and a key to happiness is making sure you're always pursuing your current goals.)
 
Odin said:
Thanks for your advice! An yeah I know the grind is gonna suck I was just hoping to take one thing off my plate if possible, but you think if I get denied from two I will get denied from all three? Also how does cross commissioning work? I have heard of it, but have not been able to find any real information on it. Thanks again!
Click to expand...
Could not tell you to be honest, that's a question for an official.
 
A1Janitor said:
I stand corrected. I don’t know the ACT - my son took it but he did well on SATs.

I thought a 36 was the best you could do.
Click to expand...
You can have a less-than-perfect score on one or two sections and still get an overall 36. Therefore he could take it again and bump up those one or two <36 scores.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top