West Point Cheating Scandal

Cookiemom said:
So...a cadet will not lie, cheat or steal is out. Very sad.
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Here is a link to the West Point honor code. There seems to be much confusion about it. This did not change just at West Point, but I believe the other service academies as well.
Again, Gen Williams did NOT change this. The attrition only aspect first started changing in 1976.
If we are going to have a rational discussion about this and investigate possible wrong doing everyone needs to at least understand what the code entails in its current form.
 
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here2learn said:
One. More. Time. Athletes get special treatment. You as a helicopter dad who sees everything as an assault on you D1 DD can fallow Sgt Shultz and see nothing. The Academies are just following the rest of the colleges and unfortunately becoming more like them.
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Nope. Said nothing about it being an assault on my D1 athlete. Nor did I write anywhere that this isn’t something that should be investigated.
My issue is that you and others are implying that D1 athletes were not expelled due to special treatment, and this is false and shows a complete lack of understanding of the honor code in its present form. If we are discussing an honor code we should at least be honest in such a discussion. Here is a link-
Now was the timing of the punishments an issue? Perhaps. That’s a different subject and one worth investigating. But Gen Williams did not in any way alter the honor code punishments.
 
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MullenLE said:
UHBlackhawk - I agree with you. My theme is not about the change from a pure attrition honor code or LTG Williams himself. It's focused solely on this comment from the West Point Supt...any Supt = "has resulted in an inequitable application of consequences and developmental opportunities for select groups of cadets."
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Well, first I would like to see the entire context of that quote. Second, it’s not a false statement. The honor code was used in the past to get rid of minorities and keep other Cadets in line. Gen Davis even wrote about fellow Cadets silently supporting him but fearing retribution if they publicly did so.
I’m not saying this is grounds for throwing out or altering the system, but acknowledging that part of the honor code shouldn’t be controversial.
 
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I am of the opinion that one shall not pass judgment until all of the facts have been presented. In this case those of us on the outside will likely never know all of the facts.
The statements from WP regarding the charges did not play well in my opinion. Hopefully the end result will be justice and the punishments will fit the crimes (fair and equally).
Meanwhile, I would hope the discussion here would be less hostile and stop the blanketed character assassination of all the D1 athletes.
People in this thread have stated they won’t even watch today’s Liberty Bowl game because of this? Really?
Our athletes are of high character as is the rest of the Corps. Don’t judge all of them by the actions of this group under investigation. Nothing in this world is perfect, and that includes West Point. The goal is to have a system to strive for perfection and to follow it closely. That is what WP has done so well since the beginning (not without hiccups) and will hopefully continue to do so for eternity.


GO ARMY! BEAT WV!
 
Just a point of order, LTG Williams gave special preference to the athletes so they continue to play football. That's astounding.

Screenshot_2020-12-31 Most West Point cadets in cheating scandal are athletes.pngScreenshot_2020-12-31 West Point Cheaters Mostly Athletes.png
 
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1842 said:
Just a point of order, LTG Williams gave special preference to the athletes so they continue to play football. That's astounding.

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“Accused of cheating”. The penalties normally don’t take affect until the case is adjudicated, not when a Cadet is accused According to other statements that won’t occur until January when the Corps returns.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
Sports are very important to the service academies and I TOTALLY get that and support that. However, IMHO there is ZERO advantage to our national defense of having our service academies being Division 1 versus Division 3 in sports. Division 1 only forces the academies to lower their overall standards without any benefit. The service academy teams are all weak Division 1 teams anyway. We would still have Army//Navy if both were Division 3. The Coast Guard agrees. O.K., go ahead and flame me.
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And here I always thought that Coast Guard (and USMMA) were D3 because they were much smaller than USNA, USMA and USAFA and virtually every other D1 school. I never knew that it was because they were more "woke" about how important it was to avoid the badness of D1.
As for weak teams, USNA Football has been to how many bowl games in the last 15 or so years? At least 10. Now look away from the revenue sports. Those "Weak" Navy teams have been the Patriot League champs in swimming (both Men's and Women's) for most of the last ten years.
A number of NCAA championship appearances in Lacrosse, Women's Soccer, Wrestling, Track, etc. Many of those D1 athletes have gone on to do pretty amazing things in the fleet. Ask Navy Hoops about her teammates, I'll just say that I have 4 former varsity teammates who were flag officers in the Navy.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Nope. Said nothing about it being an assault on my D1 athlete. Nor did I write anywhere that this isn’t something that should be investigated.
My issue is that you and others are implying that D1 athletes were not expelled due to special treatment, and this is false and shows a complete lack of understanding of the honor code in its present form. If we are discussing an honor code we should at least be honest in such a discussion. Here is a link-
Now was the timing of the punishments an issue? Perhaps. That’s a different subject and one worth investigating. But Gen Williams did not in any way alter the honor code punishments.
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This is actually untrue, he did alter the punishments, he specifically altered the punishments by suspending the policy of barring cadets who violate the honor code from representing the Academy in public. Say what you will about not expelling the students, it's pretty clear that he did alter the policy specifically to help the athletes and their teams.
 
I'm a 91A vet, served in the infantry and proud father of a current nominated, fully qualified son. My dad was class of 51, one of the infamous years of cheating scandals that had 100 cadets charged, 90 eventually expelled/resigned, of which 30 who were football players. My dad was varsity lacrosse and I distinctly remember growing up hearing him say that the scandal was the one thing that hurt the most. This current cheating scandal opens old wounds regarding the integrity of those who take the oath on R day, and the code that they all pledge to knowingly. I am certainly not alone is my worry about how much emphasis the academy had placed on it's D1 athletics and football program in recent years. The commandant in his recent statement used some fancy words, "inequitable application of consequences and development opportunities" for a select group of cadets". Well I am not a genius but that is pretty much saying football players and other athletes who cheated should be able to play their sport. I would argue that the "code" is crystal clear in it's mandate, and of the 59 who admitted they cheated, 24 are football players. In my world of duty, honor, country, if you admit to cheating you are the antithesis of the corps. This new initiative of remediation and rehabilitation is my opinion the wrong direction for the Academy. When I was a private, the squad leaders and CO,s of the line units who were USMA grads were different to us. We implicitly followed them and trusted them because of their pedigree. The consequences of cheaters who are allowed to stay on and complete to commissioning will be felt in the real Army. Men and Women who decide to cheat when the opportunity arises will do so again and again. I defy anyone to tell me it is not otherwise . The Army must choose in 2020 as it has had to do in 51 and in 76 what path it will take. It will survive and continue to be the institution that all others strive to emulate. But the consequences of breaking the code should not change from the day that stone was laid for all who pass it to see and adhere.
 
FastGMan said:
This is actually untrue, he did alter the punishments, he specifically altered the punishments by suspending the policy of barring cadets who violate the honor code from representing the Academy in public. Say what you will about not expelling the students, it's pretty clear that he did alter the policy specifically to help the athletes and their teams.
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That punishment is normally not applied until the cases are adjudicated, not when the Cadet is accused. The article states accused, not convicted. My understanding is that final adjudication won’t be done until January. Now if the deferment of the final adjudication had something to do with a athletics is a different case altogether. The article offers no proof of this, just accusations.
 
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A1Janitor said:
Again, test scores is but one attribute for the whole candidate score.

Are people suggesting we should just set the admissions to the highest SAT or ACT?

Are we suggesting athletes with lower scores aren’t valuable officers and cadets?

Is there a study we can point to that shows the success of athletes as officers?
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What I took @NJROTC-CC post to suggest, is that in order to compete at the D1 level, SA’s are trying to recut the top, elite athletes. Any school is. Recruitment for D1 athletes is different than for D3 athletes. D1 are less plentiful, as well. It would make sense, that in order to compete at the D1 level, and to recruit from that pool of top athletes, perhaps concessions could be made in any area. Including academic. I didn’t take the post to say that athletes are less academically strong. Rather that on the part of the SA, if wanting to compete for all D1 recruiting class...to be competitive the SA most likely looks to athletic abilities as a significant factor in their whole package There are all types of candidates that make up a class.

I took his post to suggest that competing at a lower level increases the recruiting pool. With less significant emphasis on obtaining the top, elite recruiting class. And also a bigger selection of candidates, bc there are more recruits available by sheer numbers as a D3 athlete.
 
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jp51PA said:
I'm a 91A vet, served in the infantry and proud father of a current nominated, fully qualified son. My dad was class of 51, one of the infamous years of cheating scandals that had 100 cadets charged, 90 eventually expelled/resigned, of which 30 who were football players. My dad was varsity lacrosse and I distinctly remember growing up hearing him say that the scandal was the one thing that hurt the most. This current cheating scandal opens old wounds regarding the integrity of those who take the oath on R day, and the code that they all pledge to knowingly. I am certainly not alone is my worry about how much emphasis the academy had placed on it's D1 athletics and football program in recent years. The commandant in his recent statement used some fancy words, "inequitable application of consequences and development opportunities" for a select group of cadets". Well I am not a genius but that is pretty much saying football players and other athletes who cheated should be able to play their sport. I would argue that the "code" is crystal clear in it's mandate, and of the 59 who admitted they cheated, 24 are football players. In my world of duty, honor, country, if you admit to cheating you are the antithesis of the corps. This new initiative of remediation and rehabilitation is my opinion the wrong direction for the Academy. When I was a private, the squad leaders and CO,s of the line units who were USMA grads were different to us. We implicitly followed them and trusted them because of their pedigree. The consequences of cheaters who are allowed to stay on and complete to commissioning will be felt in the real Army. Men and Women who decide to cheat when the opportunity arises will do so again and again. I defy anyone to tell me it is not otherwise . The Army must choose in 2020 as it has had to do in 51 and in 76 what path it will take. It will survive and continue to be the institution that all others strive to emulate. But the consequences of breaking the code should not change from the day that stone was laid for all who pass it to see and adhere.
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Good grief. The initiative of remediation and rehabilitation is not new. The article is making it sound like this is a new initiative implemented by Gen Williams but it was in affect long before he became the Supe. This article is very poorly written. There was a cheating problem. The penalty was the same for those involved as it was for others in the recent past. The only issue is if there was a hold up in the final adjudication for the purposes of helping the football team.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
“Accused of cheating”. The penalties normally don’t take affect until the case is adjudicated, not when a Cadet is accused According to other statements that won’t occur until January when the Corps returns.
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This is not what happened 55 of the cadets already admit to violating the honor code.
jp51PA said:
I'm a 91A vet, served in the infantry and proud father of a current nominated, fully qualified son. My dad was class of 51, one of the infamous years of cheating scandals that had 100 cadets charged, 90 eventually expelled/resigned, of which 30 who were football players. My dad was varsity lacrosse and I distinctly remember growing up hearing him say that the scandal was the one thing that hurt the most. This current cheating scandal opens old wounds regarding the integrity of those who take the oath on R day, and the code that they all pledge to knowingly. I am certainly not alone is my worry about how much emphasis the academy had placed on it's D1 athletics and football program in recent years. The commandant in his recent statement used some fancy words, "inequitable application of consequences and development opportunities" for a select group of cadets". Well I am not a genius but that is pretty much saying football players and other athletes who cheated should be able to play their sport. I would argue that the "code" is crystal clear in it's mandate, and of the 59 who admitted they cheated, 24 are football players. In my world of duty, honor, country, if you admit to cheating you are the antithesis of the corps. This new initiative of remediation and rehabilitation is my opinion the wrong direction for the Academy. When I was a private, the squad leaders and CO,s of the line units who were USMA grads were different to us. We implicitly followed them and trusted them because of their pedigree. The consequences of cheaters who are allowed to stay on and complete to commissioning will be felt in the real Army. Men and Women who decide to cheat when the opportunity arises will do so again and again. I defy anyone to tell me it is not otherwise . The Army must choose in 2020 as it has had to do in 51 and in 76 what path it will take. It will survive and continue to be the institution that all others strive to emulate. But the consequences of breaking the code should not change from the day that stone was laid for all who pass it to see and adhere.
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Good post. I don't think people who did not live with an honor system understand why it's so important. I can tell you this cheating scandal is being discussed at the Pentagon, many folks are upset at the schools response.
 
Can I ask why, if there were inconsistencies in the application of consequences for breaking the honor code, would they not create greater oversight of said application vs apparently watering down the code itself?
 
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