West Point Cheating Scandal

justdoit19 said:
What I took @NJROTC-CC post to suggest, is that in order to compete at the D1 level, SA’s are trying to recut the top, elite athletes. Any school is. Recruitment for D1 athletes is different than for D3 athletes. D1 are less plentiful, as well. It would make sense, that in order to compete at the D1 level, and to recruit from that pool of top athletes, perhaps concessions could be made in any area. Including academic. I didn’t take the post to say that athletes are less academically strong. Rather that on the part of the SA, if wanting to compete for all D1 recruiting class...to be competitive the SA most likely looks to athletic abilities as a significant factor in their whole package There are all types of candidates that make up a class.

I took his post to suggest that competing at a lower level increases the recruiting pool. With less significant emphasis on obtaining the top, elite recruiting class. And also a bigger selection of candidates, bc there are more recruits available by sheer numbers as a D3 athlete.
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Except that many/most of our D1 athletes are either not recruited or not "blue chipped" and are able to get in under normal competitiveness AND do well in their sport. I was a walk-on to my sport as were the rest of my teammates that year and we had lots of highly notable folks including All-Americans and one from the class after me who was a member of the US Olympic team. . . actually he was a recruited athlete but he was recruited for a different sport (lol). My son was also not a recruited athlete and was a walk as well. He was All-Conference in high school but at Navy played a totally different sport.

BLUF: I think that we have a lot of people posting stuff based on their "feels" with little or no ACTUAL EXPERIENCE at the academies just as I see folks in other threads on SAF giving military career advice who are basing it on second and third hand information. Sometimes I have to step away rather than make a really sarcastic remark in this regard.
 
1842 said:
This is not what happened 55 of the cadets already admit to violating the honor code.


Good post. I don't think people who did not live with an honor system understand why it's so important. I can tell you this cheating scandal is being discussed at the Pentagon, many folks are upset at the schools response.
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Once the Cadet admits to a violation, what is the time frame for adjudication? Honest question and I’m wondering if that was part of the process, to do the final adjudication for all the cases at the same time in January. My understanding is that even with “willful admission” the case needs to work through the system to get approval for the rehab process.
Again, the article is kind of sparse on information. But it is USA Today.
 
Only 12 cadets out of 73 have not had their cases adjudicated yet according to WP.

Among the 73 students accused of cheating, four cadets resigned from the academy before the investigation concluded, and 55 admitted to cheating and were found in violation of the school’s honor code, officials confirmed to The Post. Two cases were dropped for lack of evidence and the remaining 12 students will have hearings by the Cadet Advisory Board or the Honor Investigative Hearing, officials said.
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OldRetSWO said:
Except that many/most of our D1 athletes are either not recruited or not "blue chipped" and are able to get in under normal competitiveness AND do well in their sport. I was a walk-on to my sport as were the rest of my teammates that year and we had lots of highly notable folks including All-Americans and one from the class after me who was a member of the US Olympic team. . . actually he was a recruited athlete but he was recruited for a different sport (lol). My son was also not a recruited athlete and was a walk as well. He was All-Conference in high school but at Navy played a totally different sport.

BLUF: I think that we have a lot of people posting stuff based on their "feels" with little or no ACTUAL EXPERIENCE at the academies just as I see folks in other threads on SAF giving military career advice who are basing it on second and third hand information. Sometimes I have to step away rather than make a really sarcastic remark in this regard.
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Good point. My own were recruited, got in on their own, and are doing quite well. UNSA. Although not football. BTW, both of mine were highly recruited at D2 and 3 levels. USNA was the only D1 level.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Once the Cadet admits to a violation, what is the time frame for adjudication? Honest question and I’m wondering if that was part of the process, to do the final adjudication for all the cases at the same time in January. My understanding is that even with “willful admission” the case needs to work through the system to get approval for the rehab process.
Again, the article is kind of sparse on information. But it is USA Today.
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it isn’t uncommon for a case to not be brought for a board until after the summer for an allegation from the spring semester. An honor board requires the cadet in question to face a board of his/her peers which generally won’t convene until the academic year starts again while summer training is running. This is after the investigation period runs its course
 
1842

"I can tell you this cheating scandal is being discussed at the Pentagon, many folks are upset at the schools response."

My point all along. The West Point Chief of Staff's unskilled response, combined with the Supt's statement, did nothing to help a bad situation.
 
I think we are missing the whole point of having an "Honor Code". If "admitted" violations are not acted upon (for whatever reason and for whomever) the whole system loses meaning. I fully understand the value of athletics (I was a collegiate varsity athlete) as far as leadership, guts, and teamwork, but fail to understand the reason for having an "Honor Code" if it fails to mean squat. If you enter a program knowing that cheating, lying, or stealing will likely lead to dismissal or other strict penalty (not reduction to Cadet PFC, or loss of off post privileges), I would hope that most people would shy away from even thinking about violating the ethics code. The very fact that "dismissal" being automatic (from whatever year) has been removed now allows for personal opinions or worse outside pressure to come into play. But it is unfortunately a "sign of the times" and a move the entire country has seen except for a few select programs. A lot of this may play into the difficulty in getting high quality applicants who still are taught ethics and right from wrong. Far too many people lie, cheat, or steal and either get away with it or it is mitigated down to nothing based upon "social" issues. This should not even be a factor in the military, and I stand by my personal opinion that anyone who violates the various academy honor codes needs to be likely dismissed. We cannot afford to have leaders without character and integrity, JMHO...:)
 
Impulsive said:
I think we are missing the whole point of having an "Honor Code". If "admitted" violations are not acted upon (for whatever reason and for whomever) the whole system loses meaning. I fully understand the value of athletics (I was a collegiate varsity athlete) as far as leadership, guts, and teamwork, but fail to understand the reason for having an "Honor Code" if it fails to mean squat. If you enter a program knowing that cheating, lying, or stealing will likely lead to dismissal or other strict penalty (not reduction to Cadet PFC, or loss of off post privileges), I would hope that most people would shy away from even thinking about violating the ethics code. The very fact that "dismissal" being automatic (from whatever year) has been removed now allows for personal opinions or worse outside pressure to come into play. But it is unfortunately a "sign of the times" and a move the entire country has seen except for a few select programs. A lot of this may play into the difficulty in getting high quality applicants who still are taught ethics and right from wrong. Far too many people lie, cheat, or steal and either get away with it or it is mitigated down to nothing based upon "social" issues. This should not even be a factor in the military, and I stand by my personal opinion that anyone who violates the various academy honor codes needs to be likely dismissed. We cannot afford to have leaders without character and integrity, JMHO...:)
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Many don’t necessarily disagree with you.

However, we are innocent until proven guilty, we don’t have all the facts yet (and maybe we shouldn’t ever have them), and the punishments haven’t been decided yet.

I will highlight this sentence for you:

and I stand by my personal opinion that anyone who violates the various academy honor codes needs to be likely dismissed.

This means to me “not always dismissed”. Maybe some will be.
 
what I find very interesting is that these violations occurred in May 2020, and they have still not been adjudicated completely. I'm sure COVID lockdowns factored heavily, but I find it odd that it has taken this long, especially since 55 or so admitted to it.

The fact that West Point altered their policy to allow cadets to represent WP on the field even after they were found to have violated the honor code is a very bad look, in my opinion.

The rationale behind that decision due to "disparate impact on some but not others" tells me that SOME were fully adjudicated, but since not all were, then it would be somehow unfair to punish them (by not letting them play ) while others were still able to play, because their cases were still pending.

If that's the case, then I think it reflects poorly on WP. Just my opinion, but once someone if found guilty of some offense, the punishment should be applied. Unless they are saying that all 75 of them were working together in some conspiracy of some sort and all the cases are linked, but I haven't read that anywhere.
 
A1Janitor said:
Many don’t necessarily disagree with you.

However, we are innocent until proven guilty, we don’t have all the facts yet (and maybe we shouldn’t ever have them), and the punishments haven’t been decided yet.

I will highlight this sentence for you:

and I stand by my personal opinion that anyone who violates the various academy honor codes needs to be likely dismissed.

This means to me “not always dismissed”. Maybe some will be.
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Normally I don't ask about the Academy too often. I did ask DD about this. Without hesitation her reply was that any Cadet that should be, "Found" on this or any SHARP violation should be Separated.

No double standards. At all.
I'm not there, she is, so for good reason, I defer to her.
 
Walman888 said:
Normally I don't ask about the Academy too often. I did ask DD about this. Without hesitation her reply was that any Cadet that should be, "Found" on this or any SHARP violation should be Separated.

No double standards. At all.
I'm not there, she is, so for good reason, I defer to her.
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My (WP) daughter agrees quite vociferously that those found to have cheated after due process should be separated. I thought I had strong views, but not nearly as black and white as her perspective. She thinks those who made admissions might still warrant separation even though she says she thinks that is now off the table. Her understanding of the purposeful and concerted nature of the conduct is part of her thinking.
 
A1Janitor said:
Many don’t necessarily disagree with you.

However, we are innocent until proven guilty, we don’t have all the facts yet (and maybe we shouldn’t ever have them), and the punishments haven’t been decided yet.

I will highlight this sentence for you:

and I stand by my personal opinion that anyone who violates the various academy honor codes needs to be likely dismissed.

This means to me “not always dismissed”. Maybe some will be.
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I like to think I am a rational individual, and fair person. That being said, there could (in extraordinary circumstances) be mitigating circumstances that on a case by case basis could be cause for pause. But, I hope this does not revert to athletes vs non-athletes as I, as that rational person would handle each case as separate, unless a conspiracy is uncovered, and if that is the case then WP (or any other academy) needs to re-evaluate its whole system and standards.
 
Our son agrees, but feels that the cheaters are now like pedophiles in prison and probably won't be able to bear the stigma to graduation. They are marked and will not be able to hold their heads up anywhere. Though swift separation might seem like clean justice and the better public optic, the festering weight of living with dishonor among the honorable may be the crueler punishment. He doubts many will survive the shame long enough to see their cap toss.

He also emphasized that all punishments have not yet been handed down, and separations may still occur. Those are the lucky ones.
 
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For the people who vehemently expressed their view of honor code and zero tolerance, let me ask you this, did you ever lie or cheat in your life? If so, then shut up and let school leadership handle the situation. Your high moral standard sentiment is just a hypocrisy in the eyes of God. Cadets have higher standards of ethics, but they are human being too. What you did is just a classic example of Pharisees who wanted to stone the woman who committed adultery to death. (John 8)
 
WQXDJX said:
For the people who vehemently expressed their view of honor code and zero tolerance, let me ask you this, did you ever lie or cheat in your life? If so, then shut up and let school leadership handle the situation. Your high moral standard sentiment is just a hypocrisy in the eyes of God. Cadets have higher standards of ethics, but they are human being too. What you did is just a classic example of Pharisees who wanted to stone the woman who committed adultery to death. (John 8)
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Aren’t you 3C at USMA?

What does God’s judgment have to do with the first amendment right to express their views?

Is there a difference between the Pharisees interested in carrying out Moses law and stoning the woman, and others commenting on violations of the honor code and the punishment that should be carried out by those in authority? Is anyone suggesting they should make the decision and punish the cheaters themselves?

What would Jesus have said if the Pharisees didn’t want to stone the adulterer, but rather have the adulterer face punishment from the secular government?

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. (Mark 22:21)
 
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