What do you do when...

Ah! Well now, that is key. He's an applicant.


All you can really do is remember how seeing that midshipman acting in that way disappointed you, and not doing the same when you're a midshipman.


And for the record, an Alcohol Offense will most likely not end your career. It's better to get spanked in those first two years than the last two....for your future's sake.
 
bruno said:
Either way you will have made yourself a pariah among your peers and pretty much just contributed to the chilling of unguarded speech even among comrades over a pretty minor law (and regardless of what LITS says- it's underage drinking- which is right up there with speeding which I assume he is not advocating you also would turn someone in for).
Surely LITS also recognizes that his follow up about "what do you do when he lies" is a completely different offense?
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There is a difference because we say there is. Much as we say "let the cadets or midshipmen handle it" there is a limit to that. They are in a training environment. An alcohol offense would not end their career, especially as a cadet/midshipman. Would they lose Christmas leave? Maybe. Would this come back to bite them later? No.

Bruno of course understands that the "offense" at an academy is different from one in the fleet. I'm sure that USNA is no different from CGA, your cadet file is sealed when you graduate. While I understand you didn't go to an academy Bruno, I would assume you understand the concept of the fact that being on leave does NOT mean the midshipman is not longer subject to the rules and regulations of not only the Naval Academy, the the U.S. Navy. What grounds would he be reported? On the same grounds that a cadet is reported for wearing civilian attire within 100 miles of the Coast Guard Academy....because they are violating a regulation.

As I write this, I'm on leave. That does not mean I am going to put on my uniform and run to the next political rally in my area. There are rules that I have to follow, even if I'm not in my office, even if I'm not on a ship. The government is paying me while I'm on leave, and I owe it to the government and my branch of the service to follow the rules.

Maybe standards are different at the Naval Academy. When I was a firstie (senior) I had a classmate in my company who was walking the line. He worked in a division that handled drill for the company. He asked the Company Commander (also our classmate), if he could go out to get ice cream for the company after drill as a little "morale". The company commander said no. The classmate when out anyway. He was reported for disobeying an order, and he was masted. He didn't break a LAW. He did something contrary to what his cadet chain of command said.

Do you think he graduated? Do you think he's an officer in the Coast Guard today? No. That cadet showed an inability to follow orders, and at that stage, could he be expected to enforce any kind of rules? Probably not. The company commander got some grief from classmates, but she had made her decision, and while unpopular at the time, followed through. He threw almost four years away because he did not do the right thing...and he didn't even break a law. It wasn't even an honor violation. Had he been "checked" earlier in his cadet career, maybe he would have learned his lesson before it resulted in is dismissal.

Now, Bruno and Memphis might think that this is a minor offense, disobeying the orders of a fellow cadet, a classmate even. However, I would maintain that you have to draw the line.

I'm inport OOD during a patrol in the Florida Straits. I have a Coast Guardsman who gets into a fight at a bar, and makes a run for it. He leaves his ID behind. The base OOD brings his ID and lets me know what's happening. Is it worth taking to the command? Sure. I'm on watch, the good order and discipline of the cutter is my responsibility. That was at 2 a.m. The XO was immediately informed. Was he much older than a midshipman? Nope.

Where do you draw the line? When does it become an issue that needs to be addressed? If the OOD is being called at 2 a.m. to FIND a member of the crew, then it's probably gotten to that level, especially when that missing member was scheduled to be helm pulling out the following morning (which I did not have him do). But some would have you believe that, in the name of that person's career, don't take action. We could apply that "trigger" to just about everything....maybe exclude capital crimes.

These are the questions you will have to answer for yourself. I do not agree with the general idea of Bruno and Memphis that if it's minor sweep it under the rug. There is more than one example of crisis within organizations, like the Navy and Army, which a minor event was ignored and it grew. Abu Ghrab, Tailhood, Tillman, the list goes on and on. Small issues can snow ball. I'm not saying underage drinking would, however a culture developed at a unit to "ignore" various offenses in order to save the offenders careers, often end with someone losing their job...whether they have an oak leaf, eagle, or star on their shoulders or large stripes on their sleeves.

That's my opinion. Because you're not a midshipman yet, you will just need to remember what it looks like. When you are a midshipman, that's when those questions become more difficult to answer.
 
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LineInTheSand said:
And for the record, an Alcohol Offense will most likely not end your career. It's better to get spanked in those first two years than the last two....for your future's sake.
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I don't know about CGA, but it could "kill" your career at Navy. If you're just a hard working kid that would normally end up in about the middle of the class, getting ranked last for a semester (automatic for a major conduct offense) may be something impossible to overcome. Causing you to lose your pilot slot, SEAL slot, EOD slot, possibly even Marines. If you can't even get to the community you want, not because you weren't qualified but because you were being "taught a lesson" I would call that killing a career.

Now, every mid knows that an honor offense is an honor offense and no matter how you feel about the rules you always admit to breaking them.

To the OP, if you have a problem with this you are about to get a rude awakening at the academy. There is an enormous drinking culture here. Multiple firsties have run triple digit bar tabs in one night that I as a PLEBE have been told about. Don't assume the officers don't get involved either (service selection, ship selection, Army-Navy). It is everywhere from plebes on overnight to firsties on "firstie thirsty thursday" and you better be ready for it. We have breathalyzers and you better be willing to deal with the consequences it/when you get caught but this isn't BYU the only reasons people wouldn't drink here are consequences, there is hardly any moral opposition.
 
You would be addressing other problems, like officers partying with midshipmen. As for "career killer" your classmates will soon find out, they may not get their first pick, and even when they do get their first pick, they may not like it (flight school is a perfect example). It takes a good deal more to "kill" a career in the Navy.

I had a classmate who was 100% aviation...but wasn't selected for flight school. He went to ship. He tried again, but was disqualified because of his eyes....he is now the XO of his own ship in Alaska. Career means career in the Navy, not being part of the community you want to be in.

As for honor offenses....you will find that they do not ALWAYS admit to committing an offense, although, if they did, that would save MANY midshipmen and cadet careers.
 
Do you really think that it's a good idea to commission a 22y/o officer with absolutely zero experience with alcohol? One of the biggest complaints that other officers have about academy grads are that they overdo alcohol once they graduate due to a lack of self-knowledge. That is why they started the alcohol training but you'd just be lying to yourself if you thought that that was enough. >90% of your subordinates are going to drink on a regular basis. It might be a good idea to have some first hand experience in the area.

This line of thinking is why the "offender" would not get any punishment. There is no evidence to suggest that the mid was overdoing it at all. And if you were to get an underage, the most you would get is a weekend restriction but more likely counseling on drinking more responsibly.

Finally, just as personal advice to the OP, nobody is going to trust you at the Academy if you have a reputation for 1st grade style telling on somebody. You are going to be an officer soon and need to start handling problems big boy style.

Now if your moral compass is so against underage drinking that you can't live with letting it go, then do what you think is best. Just understand the consequences.
 
Wickler908 said:
Do you really think that it's a good idea to commission a 22y/o officer with absolutely zero experience with alcohol? One of the biggest complaints that other officers have about academy grads are that they overdo alcohol once they graduate due to a lack of self-knowledge. That is why they started the alcohol training but you'd just be lying to yourself if you thought that that was enough. >90% of your subordinates are going to drink on a regular basis. It might be a good idea to have some first hand experience in the area.

This line of thinking is why the "offender" would not get any punishment. There is no evidence to suggest that the mid was overdoing it at all. And if you were to get an underage, the most you would get is a weekend restriction but more likely counseling on drinking more responsibly.

Finally, just as personal advice to the OP, nobody is going to trust you at the Academy if you have a reputation for 1st grade style telling on somebody. You are going to be an officer soon and need to start handling problems big boy style.
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Haha, I don't think anything I've quoted above is based in reality. First, the MAIN complaint centers on the social skills of academy graduates and their egos. The term "Ring Knocker" is not because non-Academy grads are big fans, and I have yet to meet an officer from ANY service who thinks that underage drinking does not occur at an service academy....not one.

Next, I'm not sure where you go to school, but "counseling and a weekend restriction" is nowhere close to reality, not in the past 10 years at least.

I read the post twice, just to make sure I was reading it correctly. Wickler, what exactly is your academy experience?
 
LineInTheSand said:
Haha, I don't think anything I've quoted above is based in reality. First, the MAIN complaint centers on the social skills of academy graduates and their egos. The term "Ring Knocker" is not because non-Academy grads are big fans, and I have yet to meet an officer from ANY service who thinks that underage drinking does not occur at an service academy....not one.

Next, I'm not sure where you go to school, but "counseling and a weekend restriction" is nowhere close to reality, not in the past 10 years at least.

I read the post twice, just to make sure I was reading it correctly. Wickler, what exactly is your academy experience?
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Sir,

I'm a plebe and I've seen that punishment first hand. Just because alcohol inexperience is not a MAIN complaint doesn't mean that the problem shouldn't be addressed. Also, if everyone acknowledges that underage drinking occurs (and you'd be crazy to not assume far more than half the brigade does engage in it), then I'd assume there would be far more action taken against it if it was considered a problem. Again, it would be suicide for jghsrunner to even think about turning in the offender, much less confront them and that is probably a good thing. While living in a bubble is good in some respects, it can also greatly hinder growth in others.

v/r
wickler
 
So here's my honest take on it, with the understanding that I've seen alcohol offenses at academies and in the fleet.

First at the academy:

At an academy, you are in a training environment. If there is a place you want to screw up, that's the place to do it. Once you leave your files are sealed. The administration/command at each academy understands that you are in a training environment. The cadet/midshipman chain of command should simulate increased responsibility and ownership. At the Coast Guard Academy I believe 4/C cadets could max out their demerits at 300. A 1/c would max out at 150. At 50% of your max allowable demerit total, you are placed on suitability for service probation. If you "push it" you may be headed home. 150 demerits may seem like a lot, but cadets hit greater than 50% with one Class I offense, or a few large Class II offenses. This allows for cadets to "figure it out" earlier on in their cadet careers. They are given more leeway to make mistakes with the understanding that they are still developing. By they last year, the command hopes they have the character to become good junior officers. The real learning however begins once they graduate, and they earn their pay.

Through four years at the Coast Guard Academy, I saw plenty of people get in trouble. From my upperclass to my underclass. An action during 4/c year would not generate the same response as the same action the 1/c year. Many cadets have their skeletons. I had my own. It wasn't until I witnessed my 3/c masted for an offense I had also committed but not been caught that I really figured it out. I'm talking underage drinking and I'm not talking an honor offense. I'm talking about a simple conduct offense. I was a 2/c at the time, and I knew if I had been caught, it would most likely have been the end of my cadet career. I stopped. Cadets and midshipmen may often do something that is against the regulations, and they may continue doing it until one of two things happens, it dawns on them that it is a very bad idea (what happened to me) or their caught. If it's the latter, then you better hope it happens sooner rather than later.

There have been members of the SAF that want to minimize underage drinking. First, drinking laws are state laws. Each academy also has policy regarding not just underage drinking but what is responsible drinking for cadets and midshipmen. Each service also has instructions on this, written orders that must be followed.

Are those rules always followed? Nope, no way. Should they be? Sure. Let's be realistic; 9 times out of 10 a cadet of midshipman will drink and not be caught. Are they in a private setting? Are they acting "responsibly"? Maybe. And then there is that 10% who aren't in private. That 10% who decides to get in an argument with his girlfriend outside a strip club and the police are called because someone hit someone else. That 10% who get lost going back to the academy, and fall asleep in a random person's house. That 10% is the minority that becomes the majority in the eyes of the public. That 10% is why people think the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps need to leave Japan ASAP.

In the Fleet:

Now, some will want to minimize drinking at an academy, and I will admit, drinking has become, or has always been, a big part of the social scene. Alcohol policy is taken very seriously in the fleet however. Not, avoiding legal alcohol consumption, but drinking responsibly. The Alcohol and Drug rep for my ship was a Chief. Underage drinking was not tolerated by the Chief's Mess or the Wardroom. Crew members who were found to have consumed alcohol underage were masted.

I can assure you, whether it be at the Academy or in the Fleet, underage drinking does not result in "counseling and losing one weekend". Having a very dirty room will result in losing a weekend and counseling. In my case, saying a bad word in the hall resulted in my losing TWO weekends. (Ok, it was a "very" bad word and I was a 2/c).

People will talk about character and responsibility. I believe some members throw those words around. They are more excited about wearing a sword, being called sir, flying a plane, or looking sharp in a uniform, and they don't internalize what those words mean.

Are people big fans of someone being turned in? Nope. Sometimes it depends on the person and that action, but in general, no.

Are you willing to take action despite how unpopular it might be?

In the four years I attended the Academy, I wrote up two people for Honor Offenses. One was voted 5-4 for separation by the Honor Board, and one was voted 9-0 for separation. Neither started as a "witch hunt". I did not get grief for either offense. I was acting in an official capacity, as the Company OOD at the time.

As cadets were wrestled with the concept of an alcohol offense. We wrestled with the importance of accountability, why we did the things we did, and if those "actions" really translated into "Fleet Transferable Skills".

One year into my time at my first ship, it became very clear that accountability was important. Any OOD was acting in an official capacity. If a shipmate was found drinking underage or going into it with someone in a port, and that was reported to the OOD, action WAS taken, and the ship understood it. Instead of questioning why an OOD took action, shipmates questioned the stupid actions of the individual.

You're going to have to look yourself in the mirror at some point in your cadet career and decide if you should take action. I did it more than once, and the answer wasn't always the same, and the action wasn't always what I wanted. I didn't report every thing I knew was going on, but in the end, I didn't ignore it all either. That line will be given to you by the academy you attend, it's up to you to understand what to do with it.
 
A current plebe at the Naval Academy told me in a private message that earlier this year eight midshipmen were caught drinking in "The Hall" aka, the barracks. Four of them were underage 3/c midshipmen. Two were 2/c midshipmen and two were 1/c midshipmen. One of the 2/c lied about his/her involvement. No one's Navy career was ended.

I wonder how this kind of affects the academy. First, you have 1/c drinking with 3/c, in the barracks...a year from being commissioned officers in the U.S. Navy or Marine Corps. I guess that's being a leader. Next, you have four midshipmen drinking underage with midshipmen who outrank them.

Is this "boys being boys"? A harmless mistake? What is the Naval Academy staff saying about how seriously they take it? Sounds like not very much.
 
jghsrunner06 said:
a midshipman threatens the integrity of his company and brigade as a whole?

When I was on my CVW in November, I noticed something very interesting that I did not expect. My mid that I was paired with (4/C) often gets completely drunk at parties when he is on leave. He is obviously still underage.

How would one handle that situation when in the brigade, knowing the knowledge that he or she does?
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You sound like a really stuck up person who is out of touch with reality.
 
LineInTheSand,

That is called "Leading by Example." (sarcasm)

I believe that 1/C MIDN should be held responsible for their conduct in the same respect that a junior officer would be. If the incident is true, at a minimum, the 1/C knew drinking wasn't allowed in the hall. Therefore, they must take responsibility/accountability for what happened. I don't think the Academy really pushes this as much as it is talked about it. Obviously, all MIDN should be accountable for their own behavior.

As for the consequence, that is a decision that the Academy staff has to make -- part of being an officer is making a decision. There could be more to the incident that we don't know.

I can't stress it enough, as an ENS/2ndLt, you will be held to a higher standard -- not only of yourself, but the leadership you impose on your subordinates. It is always your fault if one of your subordinates makes a bad decision, choice, or mistake. The first person that the CO/XO is going to call, is the Dept Head and Divo, not the person who did wrong.

BTW, I am quite impressed at the USCG's maritime professionalism in the AG (never really worked with USCG in a war zone AOR). They are a great group to work with and run a taught watch. I just don't know how they (probably another crew) brought that girl over here through the choppy oceans. I'd hate to be on one of those in 10+ footers.
 
Soylent said:
You sound like a really stuck up person who is out of touch with reality.
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In no way am I out of touch with reality or stuck up. I see it happen all the time. I'm just saying. I feel one should expect a higher standard when he or she looks at the way midshipman of the Naval Academy handle themselves.
 
Thanks Jadler. The 110's were loaded on a larger ship and brought over (much like USS Cole was transported to the U.S. following the attack). The 110's however get to "brave the seas" on their way back. We're proud of the Coast Guardsmen in the NAG. It isn't easy to get, many are chomping at the bit to get over there. Those 110's are very rough rides.
 
jghsrunner. There are others that think like you. You're not in a class all by yourself. I had a similar debate on this forum with a young midshipman who's ideas of honor and good conduct seemed to be based on "keeping infractions on the personal level". I still think his ideals where weak, for himself, for the Academy, and for the Navy (and the USA).

Stay the course. I'm not suggesting here, as others have said, to be "the guy" in your class, just hold a higher ground. You know what the example looks like and know what example you'd rather project. Either way it's a choice.

It's just too bad that the example you saw was more obvious than the other example that you may have seen but weren't as obvious.
 
LineInTheSand said:
A current plebe at the Naval Academy told me in a private message that earlier this year eight midshipmen were caught drinking in "The Hall" aka, the barracks. Four of them were underage 3/c midshipmen. Two were 2/c midshipmen and two were 1/c midshipmen. One of the 2/c lied about his/her involvement. No one's Navy career was ended.

I wonder how this kind of affects the academy. First, you have 1/c drinking with 3/c, in the barracks...a year from being commissioned officers in the U.S. Navy or Marine Corps. I guess that's being a leader. Next, you have four midshipmen drinking underage with midshipmen who outrank them.

Is this "boys being boys"? A harmless mistake? What is the Naval Academy staff saying about how seriously they take it? Sounds like not very much.
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All drinking is not created equal - that's for sure.

Drinking underage while home on leave at a party probably can go under the heading of "boys being boys." That doesn't make it right, however.

Drinking in Bancroft Hall ... underage ... with underclassmen ... getting drunk ... is certainly a more blatant abuse, in my opinion.

These are difficult things - no doubt. There are no easy answers. But I'll tell what one of the answers IS NOT - "Always turn somebody in for drinking underage, no matter what the circumstances."

This is not the Academy of my era - for sure. My sons have told me that there is one midshipman who has already been caught stealing 2 iPods and a credit card. She's still there! (Mommy is an admiral) One midshipman has a DUI - he's still there. Honor offenses seldom result in separation any more. They are "remediated". One Plebe and Firstie were caught having "relations" - both are still there.
 
Wow, just amazing....and I agree with your statement regarding reporting, certainly counseling, or if it's a classmate, a "talk" are in order before you consider taking the next step.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Are you willing to take action despite how unpopular it might be?

In the four years I attended the Academy, I wrote up two people for Honor Offenses. One was voted 5-4 for separation by the Honor Board, and one was voted 9-0 for separation. Neither started as a "witch hunt". I did not get grief for either offense. I was acting in an official capacity, as the Company OOD at the time.

As cadets were wrestled with the concept of an alcohol offense. We wrestled with the importance of accountability, why we did the things we did, and if those "actions" really translated into "Fleet Transferable Skills".

One year into my time at my first ship, it became very clear that accountability was important. Any OOD was acting in an official capacity. If a shipmate was found drinking underage or going into it with someone in a port, and that was reported to the OOD, action WAS taken, and the ship understood it. Instead of questioning why an OOD took action, shipmates questioned the stupid actions of the individual.
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Well this makes a lot more since. No one will ever criticize the CDO, I'm assuming this is USNA's version of CGA's OOD, for turning someone in. That is why they are there. There is a huge difference between turning a classmate/friend in. You are supposed to be there to help eachother. A superior is not supposed to be your friend however. Turning in a classmate and turning in an underclassman are two COMPLETELY different situations.
 
Drinking at USNA and a Leadership Lesson

I would caution against getting into the "bilging a classmate" versus reporting an underclassman and how they are "totally different." I understand where you're coming from, you just need to word it better. I am someone who survived the Academy with not one, but two, underage drinking offenses (once as a 3/c and again as a 2/c). I am one of the lucky ones and by no means recommend my mistakes to others. In any situation (non-life threatening, no physical harm caused, or credible public damage to the image of the Service) involving underage drinking, I would highly recommend the informal counseling method. As in, confronting the accused about their actions and potential consequences in a non-hostile manner behind closed doors. Peer leadership (and its essentially all peer leadership at the Academy so long as it is not an upperclassmen/plebe interaction) is one of the hardest forms of leadership to develop. However, if you can master it or at least get good at it, generally, speaking you'll be able to manage subordinate leadership and even tactfully, leading your superiors by your own example and charisma. It's not just that nobody likes a tattle-tale, it demonstrates a lack of character and intestinal fortitude to approach someone in a professional and upfront manner and call them out for their failings. However, you must be willing to except that you are not perfect either and take their criticisms in kind.

N.B. I personally think a 18 year-old drinking age is the true way to combat binge drinking and alcohol abuse, coupled with solid, and worthwhile education on responsible use (with the ability to practice; everyone remembers their first hangover!). But once laden with the burden of command, as a leader you must still hold your subordinates accountable for violations (even if you disagree with said rule personally, you are still a PROFESSIONAL). However, consideration should and is given to MIDN and Cadets, because they are college-aged students (who need to learn from the mistakes from alcohol use and abuse).

-Malachy Marine
 
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