Who Takes The Hit?

Lots of numbers, but nobody has identified what exactly has driven the numbers from my cursory reading. With the number of people in the military healthcare system, they should be able to slice and dice the number so many ways, your head will spin. They should be able to tell you if it is an aging issue, whether it is dependent driven, whether the number of visits per person in a given age/gender range is increasing or decreasing (an indication of lots of potential problems). From these numbers you should be able to get an idea of things you can control (appropriate use of resources) from things you can't (aging population with more service-related issues). Things that can be incentivized to yield results should be done. Where we identify potential buying power (anything from pharma purchases to walk-in clinic preferred provider arrangements) should be pursued. Military members and their dependents are given benefits, but the management therof is something that should be done by the provider therof.

Yes and no. The records are there. I'm trying to grab the 2 billion (yes billion) records to see if I can use them for my own analysis. Problem is, we actually didn't track a lot of stuff really well. Also, their interest in the exploding problem seems to be a more recent occurrence. I wish I could say more, but I'm still in the process of drinking the fire hydrant as it were.

The military actually runs one of the best medical systems in the world, considering the mission. It has a great source of providers brought up through its ranks - one of its great strengths that I think hasn't been leveraged enough.
Both the MHS and VA are great systems. Could you clarify what you think isn't being leveraged?

Personally, I've always wondered with the number of doctors the military pays to go to med school, why the military does not run its own. It is going to be in the business of employing doctors for the forseeable future, and quite frankly what they pay to private medical schools is highway robbery. They have the facilities to do the job and personnel to staff it (who earn a heck of a lot less than those who currently teach at med school and can better prepare their student for what they will see in a military practice).

They do, it's called USUHS (http://www.usuhs.mil/). kp2001 went there. I have several friends there now. What do you think the civilian scholarship cost (HPSP) is to support your statement?

I've read a couple of places that one of the major reasons doctors fees are so high in this country (going back to one of the graphs in hornet's links), is that military MDs aside, all US docs come equipped with $250,000+ in student debt on top of the years of lost income getting into the profession. It is how medical education is financed in this country that drives a lot of the cost. In the countries (Japan for example) where medical school is either free or very inexpensive, the MDs can come out and afford to live on the more restricted reimbursement rates the payers offer. What I am saying here is a lot the rest of the world's cost advantage is paid for by subsidized medical education.

I am following.

If the federal government (through the military) were to become a major player in the minting of MDs (even requiring years of service as a payback) who come out without the debt, these doc will be able to handle the ever lowering reimbursement rates that seem to be coming both from private insurers and from the federal programs (medicare). Quite frankly, if you think the cost of undergraduate education suffers from inflation, you should check out the cost of med school!

Many federal and state governments offer debt forgiveness in exchange for working a few years in their facilities (prisons, grant programs, etc.) Part of the healthcare cost increases is the more extensive use of technology too. NYT also had a good health article yesterday about treating the sick instead of the plethora of "preventative" screening we do now. It was good food for thought.

I'm sure a lot of free market types will gnash their teeth at this, but our over-leveraged medical provider system feeds a service provider system that is boutique (private practice) managed because the payers for the service cannot control the use of the service nor the cost of the inputs. This is hardly the way any other free market works and perhaps we need to re-examine services in a free market that because of their nature (the cost of shopping in terms of health cannot be measured in $) should not be purely an unregulated free for all where economic power is magnified by the vulnerability of the customer.

There is a free market choice on this. In fact, healthcare is very much not free market now! It is coupled to employment with huge federal subsidies/tax breaks to keep it that way. Many prominent healthcare researchers have been yelling for years to decouple employment and health insurance. You don't have your employer cover your car, house, etc., why health insurance? Restricts job mobility among other things as well. Means an individual out of work has a bad shot at getting decent and affordable coverage.

Perhaps the government should use its leverage in what it does well (medical medicine delivery), expand it through a med school military academy, and use it to potentially solve a broader problem in the broader market.

See above.


I'm just waiting for kp2001 to come along and throw me under as totally wrong lol.
 
The $8000 is listed as per capita and the $20,000 is listed per military member. Does the DoD cost per military member also include the cost of covering the military members dependents? From my quick reading of this it does. If I am correct the $8000 and $20,000 are not directly comparable. If the $20,000 was calculated based upon all covered persons (per capita) the differece would be far less striking.
 
Ov e r h a lf ( 56 p er cent ) of t h e t ot a l g r owt h in s p e n d in g p e r
active-duty service member from 1988 to 2003 can be
attributed to national changes in health care costs generally—owing to greater use of technology, changes in the
utilization of health care services, and higher medical
prices (see Summary Figure 1). That growth reflects a
trend that could continue. Another 41 percent of the
observed growth can be attributed to events that are
unlikely to recur. One was a shift in the mix of DoD’s
beneficiary population: the number of active-duty service
members and their dependents fell substantially during
the military drawdown after the Cold War while the
number of retirees and their dependents grew—pushing
up spending per active-duty service member. Another
unique event was the introduction of accrual budgeting
for the medical benefits of military retirees and their dependents who were eligible for Medicare. That accounting change (aimed at better capturing the full cost of
labor) did not affect benefits but did raise DoD’s budgets

Page x shows the breakdown for reasons for the cost increases.

If we assume because of lack of explanation the per military member isn't accounting for dependents, then look at the comparison to compensation which is comparable. Civilians get about ~0.1 dollar of coverage per wage dollar earned, federal employees ~0.18, military ~0.65. Imagine if that extra funding of medical care went to wages instead.

DoD is responsible for providing medical care and coverage for over 8 million beneficiaries.

As we dig further into the report, you find things changing that affect costs. Ultimately, the details still are germane to the conclusion --> the MHS is on a crash course and needs something to correct it. The easiest policy directions that have been proven to work - copay, no show fees, etc. - are politically off the table. What else to do....
 
So, the disabled veterans have a much larger and significant presence in the VA. Since anything above 20% disability (IIRC) means automatic discharge, the majority of wounded vets who have higher medical costs go into the VA system rather than the MHS. Doing a report for the Wounded Warrior Project on their population so I learned about this there.

I'm not sure I follow the premise of 20% disability being an automatic discharge. I know many who were seriously wounded, patched up, then later deployed again. I know a guy who has operated for years on one leg, as a SEAL. What qualifies as 20%? How long does it take to be medically retired and no longer cared for by the military hospital? You indicate that the seriously wounded are not the issue for the rise in costs since they go quickly into the VA system. I have not seen any numbers on this, but personal observation makes me question this. I am frequently at our military medical hospital for routine care for myself and our kids, and I haven’t been to any area of the campus without seeing several active duty wounded warriors missing limbs. And that’s in the areas for routine medical care. I never, ever saw that just walking around this same hospital in 1990. How can that not be a major cause for the rise?

I’d also be interested to know about the impact of mental health care costs. I can’t imagine it counted for that much in 1990 and it was poorly utilized when it was needed. After 10 years of sustained war, we (the families) get briefed on it all the time. The costs of that may be a drop in the bucket to what is being spent at military hospitals but I know that this has to be a huge percentage increase in what was spent on mental health in 1990.
 
I'm not sure I follow the premise of 20% disability being an automatic discharge. I know many who were seriously wounded, patched up, then later deployed again. I know a guy who has operated for years on one leg, as a SEAL. What qualifies as 20%? How long does it take to be medically retired and no longer cared for by the military hospital? You indicate that the seriously wounded are not the issue for the rise in costs since they go quickly into the VA system. I have not seen any numbers on this, but personal observation makes me question this. I am frequently at our military medical hospital for routine care for myself and our kids, and I haven’t been to any area of the campus without seeing several active duty wounded warriors missing limbs. And that’s in the areas for routine medical care. I never, ever saw that just walking around this same hospital in 1990. How can that not be a major cause for the rise?

Ya, I don't feel too comfortable saying that with any certainty. I would need get back to RAND and pull up the document before I would say anything. Really, I'd rather defer to tpg as I think he might know the answer.

I also imagine the cost of physical wounds is substantial.

I’d also be interested to know about the impact of mental health care costs. I can’t imagine it counted for that much in 1990 and it was poorly utilized when it was needed. After 10 years of sustained war, we (the families) get briefed on it all the time. The costs of that may be a drop in the bucket to what is being spent at military hospitals but I know that this has to be a huge percentage increase in what was spent on mental health in 1990.

RAND has been doing extensive studies on the mental health component: http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG720.pdf

Looks like the answer to your question is yes, substantial costs.

Here's the thing though, looking at the CBO report in 2003, we saw exploding costs prior to the onset of these wars. While about half the increase (56%) was explained by general increases in medical costs overall, 23% was due to a change in beneficiaries (Consisting of a decrease in the number of active-duty military personnel and their dependents and an increase in the number of retirees and their dependents and survivors), and 18% from new budget processes. Looks like the ability for retirees to use Tricare for medical coverage is killing the MHS.

Should a retiree be allowed to sign up for Tricare post-service?
 
Pardon my missing the USUHS, but it is not big enough (hence my comments about not being leveraged enough). The military should be able to generate enough MDs to cover all military hospitals, VA hospitals, and enough clinics to provide 90% of all medical services to any military dependent within 50 miles of a signficant military installation. Basically, if you get military benefits, it will be delivered by a military MD. It is one way of controlling a huge part of the cost structure. We should not be paying for a military doctor to be educated at a high cost non-military medical school.

And once they've served their time, these well-trained MDs, not encumbered by debt, will have a significant impact on the cost structure of the private sector healthcare delivery system. It won't take many years for people to figure out that massive debt for a MD just won't work any more, so the whole cost structure of medical schools will have to change.

As to the equipment cost issue brought up, my comment about the "boutique" business management of the health profession applies here. Yeah, every hospital in town wants every multi-million dollar diagnostic machine, but you'd be surprised how many private practitioners have a lot of high cost equipment in their office that gets very light use. Why? As you alluded to, the health insurance system is not engineered to optimize an industry, just pay UCR rates which are set not by the low-cost producer, but by the bulk of the producers of a service.

My comments about the "free market" criticisms (I agree that we don't have a free market), go to a lot of people who don't want government running the healthcare system (i.e. Obamacare). Let's face it, in business, you don't outsource a task that you can be as good (if not better) than your suppliers at producing. The government is committed to providing healthcare to its military and their dependents. Why outsource what you can do as good as or better and have the ability to control your costs?

And those who say the government can't do any large project better, show me any country in the world that has a private road system or a private military that works well. There are plenty of accountants who can manipulate figures to deliver small parts of the system cheaper, but the integrated whole system is not so easily replicated cheaper, especially when the government has the finances to do as the need. I'm not saying we need a single-provider system for all US citizens, as I know there is a limit to advantage of scale in any market and a diversity of providers does eliminate the complacency that can come to a single provider across an entire market. But since we do need to provide very specialized healthcare to our military and veterans, why not do it right for them and their families and contribute to the betterment of the entire healthcare market.

BTW, I agree that health insurance as a fringe benefit of employment is not a very good way to run an operation. I'm of the ilk that one should be financially liable for one's own health. I also believe that only the top 1% can afford to be uninsured in today's market and to not be insured for the rest of us presents this society with a potential huge cost which cannot be recovered, but have decided to require of our hospitals. Hence, while the red party seems to rail at infringement on individual rights, this once again isn't a place where freedom is absolute, because failure is prevented by the larger population. How we make sure people contribute (through insurance) to the solution is entirely debatable, but the tax code is as good as any. The blue party has chosen to complicate things in the creation of new entities to make sure insurance is available on a federal level - I'm not sure it needs to be there, so it isn't like I am particularly partisan on this issue.

As to creative ideas in managing costs, my employer requires us to have annual physicals and has hired an outside firm to watch our test results and steer us towards appropriate actions. A bit big-brotherish, but if they are paying the tab, they set the rules. I'm hoping they are tracking how this impacts the outcomes down the road (good science requires this), but taking the larger view of health of the population is progress. Of course, if my employer were really concerned about my health, they would institute management practices that don't contribute to my rising blood pressure...:rolleyes:

I'm glad you will have access to the 2 billion healthcare records (quite frankly, being a data guy myself, I would have figured it to be about 100 times more than that on an annual basis) if you actually break down the line items for the services rendered. Nice data warehousing project. I'm sorry to hear that they didn't see this trainwreck coming sooner. Somehow doesn't surprise me, though.

The problem with just having your own data is that you really cannot see how your delivery system compares to the rest of the country. There is so much more we can do, but we are so deadline driven to "solve" the problem that we can only look at the simplest of parts for solutions, hence the raise the co-pays, etc. approach. Sad.:mad:
 
Because I would spend hours in this thread which I don't have I will merely list some of my favorite abuses that I have personally witnessed: (maybe i'll comment on other things later, but for now, my funnies:)

1)Dependent wife who has been a surrogate approximately 12 times. Military covers all the prenatal care for surrogates meanwhile the person is making money on this.

2)ER visits for "I need my medication refilled."

3)I don't want to deploy-itis

4)I may get admitted to the hospital multiple times due to my diabetes, but I will continue to have my 2 - 2L sodas and endless empty wrappers of snickers at my bedside on every admission. And oh yeah: I will be rude to everyone, every time.

5)I have X disease so I can't clean my house: can you get me a maid? (the answer was a resounding NO, thankfully)

6)The ridiculous need to PCS medical providers simply to PCS them (doctor X and doctor Y are the same specialty, don't want to move, but military says nope, you've been there too long so y'all are swapping places)

7)I have a small boo-boo, but I don't want to pay $5 for tylenol so I will use up an appointment to wait 2 hours for my free tylenol at the pharmacy.

8) (a follow up to 7) Let me use this awesome pharmacy service of just coming by to get OTC meds so I can turn around and sell them on Ebay/garage sales/etc (luckily this was obviously put to a very rapid stop)

9)The ridiculous lack of trust in the troops that mandates they come to sick call if they are sick and need a day off. I'm pretty sure if someone has explosive diarrhea they can figure out to stay home without needing to waste an appointment. But Nooooooo, can't have that, they might be lying.

10)The disincentive of military healthcare (really any socialized care) to see more patients. If I'm salaried I get paid the same whether I see 2 or 20 patients a day, but if I see 20 I am that much more likely to have a bad outcome and get sued, etc.

Those are just the top 10 off the top of my head. I'm sure I've got better ones back in the back of my brain that I have tried to forget.
 
kp,

Your list made me go through my mind and check it off when we went to base hospital as an AD.

A couple of ones that struck me.

#7 and 8.

When we were AD, I absolutely refused unless it was had to do it, go to the Doc's from the 1st to the 5th. The reason why was retirees get paid only on the 1st, and if the 1st falls on a Sat., they get paid the 3rd. They would make all of their medical appointments, than hit the commissary and the BX/PX, plus the gas station and Class Six.

I would land up sitting in the pharmacy waiting area for close to an hour and watch them walk out with Malox, Tylenol, etc., all OTC items. Whereas I am waiting for amoxicillin or something I can't get OTC. What was interesting to me, and frustrating, the doc would give me a prescription, and than tell me to go to the BX to get the OTC meds, such as cough meds., but the retirees got those meds.

I also remember when Bullet entered, they had a system where you walked up to the window and filled out a sheet to get any OTC you wanted, from Tylenol to Benadryl to including condoms. I can't imagine the amount that cost in the budget.

As far number 9, I do agree in part. Fliers need to go not so much about their judgment call, but it could be a larger medical issue that needs to be addressed. On the whole I agree, that is BS.

I laughed at the maid issue, because I knew 2 wives at different bases who tried this, but they didn't ask the flight doc for this, they wanted a referral to an ortho, so the ortho would do it. Maybe they found out that from other's who did get it the doc would say no, but the referral doc would and Tri-Care would cover it. I was diagnosed as a retiree wife, using Aetna with traumatic arthritis in my hip, and he said I would qualify for in home assistance, such as weekly house cleaning. I didn't take it, because that to me was BS.

The one issue I have now is how wives are getting gastric surgery. Medically, it makes sense from a long run, so that really is not the big issue. What bothers me is because they lost the weight, somehow they worked the system to get tummy tucks, arm tucks, etc through Tri-Care referrals. I know 4 wives in 3 yrs that have had this done. That is just waste and abuse IMPO. Those 4 wives, all did this surgery when their DH had his papers in and a retirement date, because it was to their benefit.

I have seen wives also get a C section because they knew it was their last child, and got a tummy tuck at the same time!

As far as disability, TPG who is 100% is right on the mark. It took Bullet over 18 months from start to finish to get his 20%. He did this for not the financial aspect, but the fact as he gets older these issues will become more pronounced. His disability has to do with hearing loss and tinnitus, common among fliers; plus another issue as a result of an injury that occurred in his career.

I will say for many AF fliers they will not apply for disability at all because it would hurt them if they want to be a busdriver in the sky.
 
Well, you know what they say....

"If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it's free!"

:rolleyes:
 
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