Pima
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 13,900
I believe KP is a fine institution and like everything in life there will always be some that will speak negatively for various reasons.
For me this is about as a country our children are inheriting a huge debt. We are getting to the tipping point unless we become realistic regarding expenditures.
I get that they have helped out for things like 9/11 and Sandy, but so did other branches. Our country came together to do whatever they could in any and every manner. The question is financially as a taxpayer is the ROI worth the investment, and honestly I haven't heard that if the USMMA converted to a "traditional" college system that it would impact the country. Your kid wants to work for Maersk, great, than why should taxpayers pay for your kid's dreams, and not you or them to attend a college that does that? USCGA, USMA, USAFA, and USNA demands 100% of their grads to serve AD for at least 5 yrs in the military, not 65%, thus it would impact our country from a personnel perspective if 65% of them could walk and work for Lockheed, Grumman, SAIC. Raytheon, etc. like USMMA grads can do upon graduation.
All I keep hearing is free education or starting salaries are 110K and 220K by 30. Go over to the SA forums and you hear/read I want to serve. My perspective can be wrong. I harbor no issue with anyone saying that at all, afterall, as a parent we want our kids to have the best, and there is nothing wrong with doing this since it exists for a reason.
Is 40 million a yr best served spent on KP, or is it best served by placing it in the pot to pay for other educational programs like Teach for America, or Head Start? I would think they would touch more than 400 kids per yr.
That's my point. It isn't about the quality of the education, it is about getting the best bang for the buck using tax dollars.
KPEngineer,
As far as the 87K and 20K tax free, it depends where you live. In Goldsboro NC, it would not be 20K. Additionally, only O5's below zone in the AF hit that at 14 yrs. Typically pinning on O5 is 16 yrs. To make O5 you will need a Master's degree in the AF which the AD member pays at least 25% of the tuition, all of the book costs, and owes 3 more yrs AD. You will have most likely moved by that time at least 6, 7 times at that time, and even with DLA and TLA, you will always be out of pocket. Now compare that to a 36 yo, that has a Masters degree, and is considered sr. mgmt., with 14 yrs of experience, how much do you think they are making per yr? I am betting
it is more than 100K in a specialized field. Afterall, you and others have reminded everyone here that the 22 yo right out of KP, without a Masters degree and no career experience are making more than an O5 with 14 yrs.
Let's remember their peers that attend other sister services and it costs the same amount of 415K to educate them, they will be 37.
Sure, they didn't choose wisely, they could have gone to KP and make that salary at 22, but the fact is it my tax dollars that allowed it. As a taxpayer I have a right to be informed and make a decision whether I believe those dollars are being spent wisely.
MumKP,
Yes sister services do pay stipends, and they also pay it to ROTC cadets/mids. AFROTC does not pay until the cadet is "contracted" which can be as a freshman, sophomore or jr., depending on if they are on scholarship or not. A freshman is paid 250, soph 350, jr 450, and sr. 550. It is only while they are in school. Basically over 4 yrs it is 15K. ROTC scholarship only cover tuition, no room and board. Their book stipend for AF is 900 a yr., 85% of scholarships are STEM, and anyone that has a kid in those majors know that 900 covers 1 semester. Upon graduation they owe 4 yrs AD, and many must wait for months before going AD, without pay or health insurance.
Again, why the question comes in as a taxpayer if spending 40 million a yr to educate, while 65% do not go military, aka 25 million to educate that portion with no return is worth the cost today. In total for 95% of AFROTC scholarship cadets, it is less than 90K and taxpayers get 4 yrs of them serving. Gojira's DS owed 143K, cut 6 weeks before commissioning because they were 8 lbs overweight. He will be paying back that 143K for yrs. because he won't serve in the Navy, and he even was willing to pay it back as an enlisted member, but the Navy said no, we want the check. I hope you can see why as a taxpayer seeing how the Navy is collecting, it bears the question if the military is cutting and collecting, is KP financially a wise decision? It is not personal, it is business. Keeping money in my wallet and not in the govts is my business. Every penny I pay, is a penny that I can't use for my family. I am not fortunate enough to have unlimited wealth, so the pennies do matter everyday. Do I live a nice life? Yes, but I do because every penny I spend counts.
It is not about the quality of KP's education, it is all about the cost. This to me is not about closing KP, it is learning why we should keep it open. For the last time, I have yet to read why it should stay open. 9/11 and Sandy, were 11 yrs apart. 40 million a yr., and that means 220 million per event if that is the defense. Not a good ROI. Luigi asked about the cost of the 35, and should we reduce or cancel due to that cost. I can guarantee you that the 35's will be utilized more than 2X in 10 yrs. That cost is probably equivalent to one squadron of 35s. Squadrons that will fly CAP for the g forbid next 9/11, will be in the air defending DC within 45 minutes.
Like I said it all about cost and benefits.
For me this is about as a country our children are inheriting a huge debt. We are getting to the tipping point unless we become realistic regarding expenditures.
I get that they have helped out for things like 9/11 and Sandy, but so did other branches. Our country came together to do whatever they could in any and every manner. The question is financially as a taxpayer is the ROI worth the investment, and honestly I haven't heard that if the USMMA converted to a "traditional" college system that it would impact the country. Your kid wants to work for Maersk, great, than why should taxpayers pay for your kid's dreams, and not you or them to attend a college that does that? USCGA, USMA, USAFA, and USNA demands 100% of their grads to serve AD for at least 5 yrs in the military, not 65%, thus it would impact our country from a personnel perspective if 65% of them could walk and work for Lockheed, Grumman, SAIC. Raytheon, etc. like USMMA grads can do upon graduation.
All I keep hearing is free education or starting salaries are 110K and 220K by 30. Go over to the SA forums and you hear/read I want to serve. My perspective can be wrong. I harbor no issue with anyone saying that at all, afterall, as a parent we want our kids to have the best, and there is nothing wrong with doing this since it exists for a reason.
Is 40 million a yr best served spent on KP, or is it best served by placing it in the pot to pay for other educational programs like Teach for America, or Head Start? I would think they would touch more than 400 kids per yr.
That's my point. It isn't about the quality of the education, it is about getting the best bang for the buck using tax dollars.
KPEngineer,
As far as the 87K and 20K tax free, it depends where you live. In Goldsboro NC, it would not be 20K. Additionally, only O5's below zone in the AF hit that at 14 yrs. Typically pinning on O5 is 16 yrs. To make O5 you will need a Master's degree in the AF which the AD member pays at least 25% of the tuition, all of the book costs, and owes 3 more yrs AD. You will have most likely moved by that time at least 6, 7 times at that time, and even with DLA and TLA, you will always be out of pocket. Now compare that to a 36 yo, that has a Masters degree, and is considered sr. mgmt., with 14 yrs of experience, how much do you think they are making per yr? I am betting
it is more than 100K in a specialized field. Afterall, you and others have reminded everyone here that the 22 yo right out of KP, without a Masters degree and no career experience are making more than an O5 with 14 yrs.
Let's remember their peers that attend other sister services and it costs the same amount of 415K to educate them, they will be 37.
Sure, they didn't choose wisely, they could have gone to KP and make that salary at 22, but the fact is it my tax dollars that allowed it. As a taxpayer I have a right to be informed and make a decision whether I believe those dollars are being spent wisely.
MumKP,
Yes sister services do pay stipends, and they also pay it to ROTC cadets/mids. AFROTC does not pay until the cadet is "contracted" which can be as a freshman, sophomore or jr., depending on if they are on scholarship or not. A freshman is paid 250, soph 350, jr 450, and sr. 550. It is only while they are in school. Basically over 4 yrs it is 15K. ROTC scholarship only cover tuition, no room and board. Their book stipend for AF is 900 a yr., 85% of scholarships are STEM, and anyone that has a kid in those majors know that 900 covers 1 semester. Upon graduation they owe 4 yrs AD, and many must wait for months before going AD, without pay or health insurance.
Again, why the question comes in as a taxpayer if spending 40 million a yr to educate, while 65% do not go military, aka 25 million to educate that portion with no return is worth the cost today. In total for 95% of AFROTC scholarship cadets, it is less than 90K and taxpayers get 4 yrs of them serving. Gojira's DS owed 143K, cut 6 weeks before commissioning because they were 8 lbs overweight. He will be paying back that 143K for yrs. because he won't serve in the Navy, and he even was willing to pay it back as an enlisted member, but the Navy said no, we want the check. I hope you can see why as a taxpayer seeing how the Navy is collecting, it bears the question if the military is cutting and collecting, is KP financially a wise decision? It is not personal, it is business. Keeping money in my wallet and not in the govts is my business. Every penny I pay, is a penny that I can't use for my family. I am not fortunate enough to have unlimited wealth, so the pennies do matter everyday. Do I live a nice life? Yes, but I do because every penny I spend counts.
It is not about the quality of KP's education, it is all about the cost. This to me is not about closing KP, it is learning why we should keep it open. For the last time, I have yet to read why it should stay open. 9/11 and Sandy, were 11 yrs apart. 40 million a yr., and that means 220 million per event if that is the defense. Not a good ROI. Luigi asked about the cost of the 35, and should we reduce or cancel due to that cost. I can guarantee you that the 35's will be utilized more than 2X in 10 yrs. That cost is probably equivalent to one squadron of 35s. Squadrons that will fly CAP for the g forbid next 9/11, will be in the air defending DC within 45 minutes.
Like I said it all about cost and benefits.
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