108 Billion Forgiven......

So basically a young person that decides they just can't imagine not attending an out of state school, private school including Ivy's to get that English Lit degree while accruing 150K plus in student loans should be let of the hook because their salary at Starbucks allows them to make a minimum payment toward their loans, and forgiving the balance.

I guess the fact that we spent years saving for tuition, the kids worked to save money for school and then worked to get the scholarships they could just makes us and them suckers.

Sorry for the rant, but over the years I have watched some of my son's friends parents buy every new toy when it came out and then complain because their kid had no money for college. Or... watching some of their friends select extremely high priced schools out of state when our state schools offered the same level of education, and then cry about the massive debt they had when they graduated.

I agree that tuition is high and the middle class gets hit the hardest, but I have little sympathy for those that chose the path to higher debt when there were very acceptable alternatives.

An alternative to all this was a very good friend of my older son. He lived at home, worked nearly full time at the local grocery store and went to the local Community College to get his Mech Engineering pre reqs, took him 3 years. His family did not have a lot of resources and he received some tuition assistance, not a lot because CC is a lot less expensive. After he finished at CC he went to one of our state universities and finished his degree in 2 1/2 years. Paid for most of it with what he earned and took minimal student loans. Since graduation he got a good job, still lived at home for a year and paid off his loans within that year. He is now debt free with a great education and a good job. I continue to admire this kid for how he did this and wonder why others feel they are entitled to just having it handed to them. Nobody cares that this kid went to CC for 3 years, all they see is his degree from a well regarded state school. Am I missing something why this is not a good path for kids to take.

Rant over.
 
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My version of Jcleppe's story:

Neighbors up the street have three kids, one still in HS. Daughter had no specific direction other than wanting to be on the dance squad at out of town State U. Parents said no. She did two years at local CC. Finished BS, Nursing in two more years. Now RN at Johnny Carson Cancer Center. No debt. Older son did two years at local CC. Will finish BS, Agronomy degree next May after two years directional State U in neighboring state. Job already waiting for him after graduation. No debt.

Besides, what the h3\\ is wrong with being a Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Machinist, Cabinet Maker, etc. There is a serious shortage of skilled workers in these trades. They are perfectly respectable, well-paid professions in Germany, Japan, South Korea--all of which are prosperous and have large trade surpluses with the US.

BTW the neighbor up the street is an Electrician who grew up on a farm.
 
cb7893 said:
Besides, what the h3\\ is wrong with being a Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Machinist, Cabinet Maker, etc. There is a serious shortage of skilled workers in these trades. They are perfectly respectable, well-paid professions in Germany, Japan, South Korea--all of which are prosperous and have large trade surpluses with the US.

BTW the neighbor up the street is an Electrician who grew up on a farm.
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Couldn't agree more.
 
I think we are seeing the "free college for everyone" proposal occurring in disguise, albeit, not a very good disguise.
Unfortunately, those of us in the middle class get stuck with bill for others, after we work our tails off to pay for our own children's college to ensure they start out life debt free.
 
Helpful to remember that $108 billion can not just be "forgiven".
 
cb7893 said:
My version of Jcleppe's story:

Neighbors up the street have three kids, one still in HS. Daughter had no specific direction other than wanting to be on the dance squad at out of town State U. Parents said no. She did two years at local CC. Finished BS, Nursing in two more years. Now RN at Johnny Carson Cancer Center. No debt. Older son did two years at local CC. Will finish BS, Agronomy degree next May after two years directional State U in neighboring state. Job already waiting for him after graduation. No debt.

Besides, what the h3\\ is wrong with being a Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Machinist, Cabinet Maker, etc. There is a serious shortage of skilled workers in these trades. They are perfectly respectable, well-paid professions in Germany, Japan, South Korea--all of which are prosperous and have large trade surpluses with the US.

BTW the neighbor up the street is an Electrician who grew up on a farm.
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My version of above:)
Youngest son is attending local technical school to become certified Respiratory Therapist (have to pass state boards no matter where you go to school). No tuition because he earned state's A+ money in high school. Will graduate debt free. He could attend 4yr school to get same education but he knows he can do that later to get his BS if he wants. The pay is the same once you are certified.

His gf is from out of state and taking loans to pay to go to local big state U. Her parents wanted her to go into pharmaceuticals but she really didn't want to. (only did this one semester).
After meeting my son and talking to us she is now attending the same technical school as him to become a nurse. Paying a fraction of the cost she would have paid at state u.

They both live with us, have part time jobs, and go to school full time. They want to move out but realize they just can't afford it right now so they have decided that until at least one of them gets out of school they will live with us.
They earn their keep. We live on a small farm so they do chores, clean house and fix meals.

I think a lot of the kids problems now a days is the fact that parents don't do the research to help guide and educate their kids about the choices of colleges or tech. education.

HS's are the same. The school our kids attended push the A+ program because it gets kids the opportunity to get into college and they can either get pre-reqs or a technical degree debt free.

A HS 30 miles away pushes the pursuit of 4 yr degrees at state U. They don't do much towards the A+ program.
 
Scoutpilot's better and more realistic version of all your anecdotal stories:

Neighbors up the street have three kids, one still in HS. Daughter had no specific direction other than wanting to be on the dance squad at out of town State U, which is a perfectly common situation for a teenager to be in, because high school isn't where anyone really "knows" their life's ambitions. Parents said no because they felt like it, not because there's anything substantively wrong or frivolous about attending a state university. She did two years at local CC, where she probably had a less developmental experience from a social, ethical, and educational standpoint but the price was right. Now she has a job and no student loan debt, so this anecdotally validates this very particular and specific course of action. Older son did two years at local CC. Will finish BS, Agronomy degree next May after two years directional State U in neighboring state. Job already waiting for him after graduation. No debt. Again, this totally validates an agronomy degree pursued through a community college because it totally worked out for this kid (maybe) and he has a JOB WAITING FOR HIM (perhaps) and, well, above all, the price was right. And when it comes to getting an education that will set the foundation for your entire adult life, nothing matters more than price. The rest is just window-dressing IMPO.

Besides, what the HELL is wrong with being a Plumber, Mechanic, Electrician, Machinist, Cabinet Maker, or some other job my precious kid would never stoop to doing? There is a serious shortage of skilled workers in these trades. They are perfectly respectable, well-paid professions in Germany, Japan, South Korea--all of which are prosperous and have large trade surpluses with the US (and all of which provide massive free educational opportunities from the national budget). I mean sure, none of us encouraged our kids to do that. Our kids are special snowflakes who deserve congressional nominations and service academy appointments and some gawdamm FREE CHICKEN TENDERS AT APPLEBEES ON VETERANS DAY IMPO. Now, those other rubes need to stop being so damn prideful. Who cares if they might write the next great American novel? Or be the English teacher who inspires the next generation of AP students who might want that 5 on the test for an academy appointment? They need to quit thinking stupid crap like English, philosophy, art, music, and sociology are anything but the FRIVOLITIES OF SPECIAL BABY SAFE SPACE FREE-RIDING LOSER MILENNIALS.

BTW the I'm a baby boomer who went to college for pennies on the dollar, tried to ruin the economy about 4 times, destroyed the housing market for a decade, etc. etc. If there's one thing I can't STAND it's the SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE SAFE SPACE KIDS thinking they have some right to expect the same affordable college I enjoyed. They need to quit thinking their STARBUCKSWAGES are enough to pay off degrees in ADVANCED ENGLISH SNOWFLAKERY that they 100% wrongfully think should be remotely as affordable as mine was. They need to quit WHINING IMPO and take whatever blue collar job there is (except my kid, he's special dammit, and he ain't no plumber or cabinet-maker because USAFA Marine Corps UPT Ranger YUTYUTYUT and THANKMEFORHISSERVICE). The world needs ditch-diggers too, dammit. Start digging ditches and QUIT WHINING and thinking you got a bad deal simply because you did.
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Summary: the Baby Boomer generation is the worst. Keep telling us we're lazy and entitled, Boomers. You raised us. You handed us this feces sandwich with a splash of ketchup. We're choosing your nursing homes. If Boomers' kids had a nickel for every time their parents told them to get a job they themselves never dreamed of taking, they'd be able to afford the tuition rates Boomers never had to pay and buy a house in the market they screwed up.
 
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Many of us Baby Boomers started with little to nothing, worked our way through and paid our own college tuition to make a better life for ourselves and our families.
My girls in no way are lazy or feel entitled. They have also earned what they have and where they are in life.
 
Capri120 said:
Many of us Baby Boomers started with little to nothing, worked our way through and paid our own college tuition to make a better life for ourselves and our families.
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And that is EXACTLY the point. Look at any comprehensive adjusted stats for college tuition. When you went to college, you actually could work your way through college. A summer job could pay for the bulk of a year's tuition. Using constant 2014 dollars, the average cost of one year of total tuition, fees, room and board rates charged for full-time undergraduate students in degree-granting institutions institutions both public and private was $9620. In 2014, it was $21,003. That's almost a 150% increase. Kids aren't lazy. You didn't work harder than they do. They literally cannot work enough to afford that. But of course the Boomer standard answer is "well just go to community college durr durr durr." As though that's a problem they ever had to deal with in a generational sense. I don't doubt you worked hard. But you worked hard in a system that wasn't stacked impossibly against paying for a 4-year college on your own.

My girls in no way are lazy or feel entitled. They have also earned what they have and where they are in life.
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I made no claims about your children, nor would I.
 
Back in my day, min wage was $1.25. So, need to also take into account that min wage has increased to $7.25 -- a 580%.

I do not at all disagree that college costs are ridiculously high.

Unlike a lot of folks I work with, who can afford to help their kids with college expenses, they do not and do exactly what you mention, which I think is a travesty.

My parents' lived by a premise that it was their responsibility to ensure their kids were better off than they were and that meant also paying for college if we decided to attend, as best they could with our help by working. (BTW neither of my parents even graduated high school)

My husband and I live by this same rule. We feel, as parents, it is our responsibility to ensure our kids have at least a 4-year degree, if that is their desire, and no debt once they graduate, even if it means we sacrifice what we might want along the way. We have managed to do this for our oldest DD, and with our youngest DD currently in an SA, we are not having to expend as much for college costs, just more on travel expenses:D.
 
Capri120 said:
Back in my day, min wage was $1.25. So, need to also take into account that min wage has increased to $7.25 -- a 580%.
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Incorrect! The NOMINAL increase, in adjusted dollars, is actually 480%. The REAL wage increase, adjusted for inflation to 2013 dollars is....wait for it....-21%. That's right...$1.25 in 1963 dollars (when that was the min. wage) was worth $9.27 in 2013 dollars. The real minimum wage as decreased, while college costs have more than doubled.

The Boomers played with a stacked deck, and their kids got taken to the cleaners.
 
scoutpilot said:
the Boomer standard answer is "well just go to community college durr durr durr."
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If only this were the case.

Kids have been bombarded since my youth (born 1956) and at least until 21 year old DS#2 graduated high school, by politicians, HS guidance counselors, college administrators, and especially college educated boomer parents, that the only way to "get ahead" is to have a four year college education. The more prestigious, the better. They would be embarrassed if one of their kids went to CC. Those looking up the education/income scale can't help but accept that same ethos.

University of Nebraska, Kansas, and Missouri all recruit in the northern suburbs of Chicago because not every graduate of New Trier can get into U or I, Northwestern, or Wash U. Those parents would never send their kids to Il State, NIU, WIU or SIU. I had to talk DW off the ledge when DS#2 chose University of Nebraska over U Mich.

This isn't an indictment of millennials. It's not an admonition to "suck it up" and get to work. They absolutely don't have it easy. It's a call to parents and politicians to stop this insistence that a four year college education is better pathway to success for the average student than a directed CC education which can still turn into a four year degree.

Do Germany, South Korea and Japan have high manufacturing trade surpluses with the US because they send more kids to University. It's precisely because they send more to technical schools very often in conjunction with the companies those students eventually work for. They turn out precision machinists. Our colleges and universities are the envy of the world, particularly in STEM fields. They also churn out graduates for whom there is no demand.

If my "uneducated" electrician neighbor can figure it out, I don't know why physicians, attorneys, bankers and college professors can't also figure it as well.
 
cb7893 said:
If only this were the case.

Kids have been bombarded since my youth (born 1956) and at least until 21 year old DS#2 graduated high school, by politicians, HS guidance counselors, college administrators, and especially college educated boomer parents, that the only way to "get ahead" is to have a four year college education. The more prestigious, the better. They would be embarrassed if one of their kids went to CC. Those looking up the education/income scale can't help but accept that same ethos.

University of Nebraska, Kansas, and Missouri all recruit in the northern suburbs of Chicago because not every graduate of New Trier can get into U or I, Northwestern, or Wash U. Those parents would never send their kids to Il State, NIU, WIU or SIU. I had to talk DW off the ledge when DS#2 chose University of Nebraska over U Mich.

This isn't an indictment of millennials. It's not an admonition to "suck it up" and get to work. They absolutely don't have it easy. It's a call to parents and politicians to stop this insistence that a four year college education is better pathway to success for the average student than a directed CC education which can still turn into a four year degree.

Do Germany, South Korea and Japan have high manufacturing trade surpluses with the US because they send more kids to University. It's precisely because they send more to technical schools very often in conjunction with the companies those students eventually work for. They turn out precision machinists. Our colleges and universities are the envy of the world, particularly in STEM fields. They also churn out graduates for whom there is no demand.

If my "uneducated" electrician neighbor can figure it out, I don't know why physicians, attorneys, bankers and college professors can't also figure it as well.
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I absolutely agree that we have spent waaaaayyyy too long telling kids that life is college or failure. The current problem is now that debt is spiraling out of control and solid careers are so to find for young people, the same generation that pushed the "college or death" mantra is suddenly saying "well, you just need to do a few years in a cheaper way, silly." And the kids who were raised believing in a 4-year degree and hearing that CC is for single moms and granddads who want to learn accounting aren't buying it...especially from folks who sent their kids to SAs or 4-year schools.
 
scoutpilot said:
I absolutely agree that we have spent waaaaayyyy too long telling kids that life is college or failure. The current problem is now that debt is spiraling out of control and solid careers are so to find for young people, the same generation that pushed the "college or death" mantra is suddenly saying "well, you just need to do a few years in a cheaper way, silly." And the kids who were raised believing in a 4-year degree and hearing that CC is for single moms and granddads who want to learn accounting aren't buying it...especially from folks who sent their kids to SAs or 4-year schools.
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I am very much a proponent for CCs and at least in our neck of the woods, they are not "frowned" upon or seen as a lower form of education, but a tremendous stepping stone or even a means to the final goal.

In rural Missouri, it is not only a much less expensive way to compete a 2-year degree as well as technical, trade, and nursing certifications, but the CC's work closely with the high schools to offer a tremendous variety of dual credit courses at an additional savings. Several 4-year universities work with the high schools to offer dual credit courses that are 1/3 the cost of regular college tuition. Local votech schools also work with the local high schools at a savings to the students to help them learn trades and earn certifications in the same.

DD took this path and received an AS and AA in Chemistry, leaving her in a position to complete her BS degree in another three semesters, but instead, she chose to attend an SA for four more years.

We continue to work closely with her former high school to help those with minimal resources and that want to attend a CC or university after graduation, to take dual credit courses so they don't have to go into debt to achieve their goals and dreams.
 
scoutpilot said:
The Boomers played with a stacked deck, and their kids got taken to the cleaners.
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We were lucky. There is no doubt about it. Many of our parents did not want us to live through what they lived through. I understand it is difficult to explain to a 23 year old why his/her student debt can't be written off the way it can for a casino. The same as the 18yr HS grad in Akron doesn't understand why there isn't an apprentice job, at an inflation adjusted 1970's union wage, waiting for him/her at the local GM plant the way it was for Granddad and G-Granddad when they graduated from HS or came home from the war.

None of that really matters now. The future looks great for those willing to set goals based on something more realistic than what they see on television. The jobs are there:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-skil...ore-manufacturing-jobs-go-unfilled-1472733676

One side wants to write off the college loans and the other wants to open more coal mines and bring crank turning jobs "back from Mexico". Neither has anything at all to do with creating jobs for the vast majority of American young people. Your sentiments seem to be indulging the former, much as POTUS-E is indulging the latter.
 
If the "Baby Boomers" (Born within 1946 to 1964) lit this fire, Generation X (Born 1965 to mid 1980's) have done little to throw water on the flames.

I agree that costs have become out of control when it comes to college and education even in Tech schools. I also agree that children are the product of how they are raised by their parents and Baby Boomer parents have a lot to answer for. My wife and I had our children later then many, we were 35 when we had our first. As our kids grew up we watched the push by the younger parents to make everything equal, trophies for everyone, school curriculums changed so there are no wrong answers, and so on. We saw our primary schools push the AP college prep courses and guide kids to 4 year schools. I am not saying nor do I believe that the generations that followed are entitled, they are the product of their upbringing and there is plenty of blame to go around on that upbringing. I see very dedicated hard working kids these days doing great things to change that old culture, but there is a lot of work to do on that front.

My only comment is that in our current situation regarding high tuition is that there are options to lessen the debt. The College shaming that goes on today where you see eyes roll if someone's kid did not attend a top tier school doesn't help. The fact that State Universities go after out of state students with a vengeance so they can get the higher tuition also hurts the local kids that would be happy attending one of their state schools.

scoutpilot said:
parents told them to get a job they themselves never dreamed of taking
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Now I know that this was a generalization but I would like to respectfully comment.

I am in the Construction/Design business, have been since a few years after I left the CG. I opened my firm in 1989. As a kid and when I went to school I worked every job you can think of from excavating by hand under houses, digging ditches, framing houses, and so on. When I started my business we could always find workers to start as a laborer doing some pretty hard work. As the years have gone by it became harder and harder to find people to take these jobs, the jobs I never dreamed of doing but did anyway. Today it is almost impossible to find kids out of high school to start in these trades and I'm not alone, being involved in this profession for many years we see it across the board. Without getting political I can only say that if any administration were successful in deportation, the construction industry would come to a halt. I would just love to see kids take a job that we did take when we were younger, let alone the ones we never dreamed of taking. Do I blame the kids, not at all, I blame the schools when they drop the shop classes in favor of more AP classes and push these kids to 4 year schools, I blame the parents that think their kid has to go to a better school then their neighbors kids, I blame the process that has led to tuition that prevents kids from working their way through school with no debt because the costs are higher they any kid can earn during a summer.

I'm smack dab in the middle of the Baby Boomer birth range, but don't lump us all in one package. I'm guilty, my kids both went to an out of state 4 year university, they both had ROTC Scholarships, had they not had those they would have gone to an in state school with CC a most likely option. Most of us just worked to provide for our families the best we could. The Baby Boomers accomplished some great things over the years and yes they managed to screw up a lot as well. Regarding that Feces sandwich, we may have passed it along but so far the next generation has simply smothered it in gravy and served it to the next generation for dinner. There is plenty of blame to go around for the way things are now, but the realization is that while we try and fix things we still need to deal with the now, that sometimes means changing attitudes. When it comes to tuition and student loans, you can't just ride the wave and hope some new executive action will make it all better. I'm not saying kids today are lazy, just not always smart in their decisions. Right now the future is in the hands of parents of the newest generation, how will they be raised and what values will be instilled. It's promising to know that there are new parents such as you and your wife that will now have that responsibility, gives us old farts hope for the future.
 
The Federal Reserve Board of San Francisco released a report today that sought to answer whether or not it is still worth going to college. The report's conclusion is, yes, going to college is still worth it.

The report said there is an $830,000 difference between getting a college education over just a high school diploma. http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyoni...0-more-than-high-school-diploma/#11c545c043e9
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Also there's the sad fact that people are working much longer than in previous generations. My office is filled with 60-70 yo boomers either unable to or unwilling to retire. That shuts off the pipeline for those trying to enter the workforce.

There's also the inherent exploitive fundamental of a capitalist system. The less it costs to make a widget the more profit I make. One way to do that is to increase productivity - which has been rising steadily. Another is, of course, to pay my workers as little as I can get away with. What seems to be forgotten, and is counter to the above, is the fact that the most important thing any business needs is customers.
 
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Jcleppe said:
Now I know that this was a generalization but I would like to respectfully comment.
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Indeed it was. There are certainly individuals within that massive group who do not share nearly the burden of blame. I was speaking, on the whole, of the generation itself...millions of people who went to college for cheap, entered the strongest multi-decade job market in US history, ran up massive federal debt, launched wars on credit, and who will (on average) draw $250,000 more in Medicare and Soc. Security than they had to pay into the system when they worked.

Writing off Federal student loan debt will likely be one of the most effective economic stimuli, dollar for dollar, in US history......outside of a good ol' fashioned war, of course.
 
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