Fate of NCAA gymnastics, boxing, fencing and rifle team

I don't think this was discussed, so I will throw it.

Sometimes, it's not about money.

I bet you when certain sports are cut or downgraded to club, new sports will be added. One of my friends was an assistant coach at a SA. He told me that there is no room for adding sports team at SAs. So in order to add a sports team, they have to cut one and plus be in compliance with the title IX requirement.
 
I don't think any poster is being adverserial. I believe everyone gets it as a parent. I just think many are approaching it from a different perspective. My perspective is like mjm's. If the sport is a priority, and the AFA loses the candidate to an Ivy because they can't compete in their niche sport than maybe the AFA is not the right fit for them.

I don't think there is anything wrong wanting to do their sport for four more years. Nor, do I think it means if they did go that path and AFROTC are they going to be less of an officer than the AFA grad.

It is a personal decision.

Honestly with a 16% appointment rate, it is not as if they are going to have to lower their standards to fill those slots.

As far as comparing it to a pool table in Bagram, I actually feel for their loss more than the loss of a niche sport at the AFA. Reason why is the fact that those guys are deployed doing a mission, from a morale perspective playing pool during their downtime does a lot more than you can imagine. The cadets that lose their team, can still have a club to join, they are just not training and traveling.

Now the snowmobile comparison I am with you.

In the end we all agree this is about money. I just think the disagreement is that this will have any impact on the AFA or the AF in the long run from any perspective as Momba is suggesting. The only people impacted are the kids that have accepted an appointment based on competing and maybe the coaches. I feel for them because maybe they would have gone to an Ivy if given the option and they should have had at least that decision left up to them.

Honestly, I am shocked that these sports have not been hit earlier when you look at everything the AF has been cutting for the past 20 years. Ask posters like flieger and Christcorp what ADAF life was like 20+ years ago when they entered and what was not there when they retired. A different world would be their answer. The fact that ADAF personnel have been getting the short end of the stick for pay raises the past several years, and retirees too, while saving niche sports at the AFA tells me they were lucky to save it as long as they have.
 
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The "rules" are always subject to change no matter where you are, college, workplace, civilian, or military. Businesses change their pension plans in ways not usually to an employees benefit. The military changes their retirement pay. What you have to do to get that next promotion, civilian or military, changes. Rents change. The government changes minimum wage rates and businessmen are impacted or employees lose their jobs while some employees benefit. Factories and businesses are shutdown. Entire industries might disappear.

But if only I had known beforehand, I could have gone to work for a different company! Yup, too bad. If only I had known I would lose my job I wouldn't have bought that house! Yup, too bad. If only I had foreseen that the market would crash I would have gotten my money out! Yup, too bad.

The changes may or may not be fair. There may or may not be a reasonable rationale. People may feel cheated, or put upon, or otherwise worked over. But one thing is for sure, you better get over it and adjust to the new reality. There is nothing special about the academies here.
 
Some here seem to think that the only schools being effected by the loss of athletic teams are the SA's. Colleges across the country are cutting programs due to budget issues. A State University in our state dropped their football program. Even the Flagship University has cut some programs. Some of this has to do with budget and some with Title IX. Niche sports have always been riding on the edge for many Universities, and with budgets being tightened across the country these sports will continue to be at risk.

It's easy to point a finger at the premier sports such as Football and Basketball, the fact still remains that these sports produce revenue for the school, the revenue from these sports fund most all the Niche sports and even sports like Women's Softball, Men's Baseball, and others. Cut the premier sports and there would be no Niche sports at any school

Don't get me wrong, if my son played a sport that was being cut I'd feel terrible and I understand your frustration. I agree with Kinnem, as tough as it may seem, you just have to move on.
 
On the official US Air Force Academy facebook page there is this announcement...

"Coach Calhoun added two assistant coaches to the staff! Welcome to the Falcons! (HS)"

So two assistant coaches are added to the football staff and they are going to cut 4 other sports because of budgetary issues.

Can people reading this post finally fully understand the frustration of parents and athletes involved in gymnastics, rifle, boxing and fencing? To see their sport sacrificed and football expanded.

We all realize it is the military. And it's a matter of too bad, it's what the brass wants, so you just have to suck it up and deal. But that doesn't lessen the loss that the current USAFA athletes of these 4 sports must come to terms with.

I only hope that as the USAFA has found the funding for 2 more assistant football coaches, that it has also located the funding to continue these 4 other sports.
 
I think many of us can understand the frustration parents of those sports might feel.

I wonder if other IC parents can understand the frustration some feel that ANY money is spent on Div 1 sports at our SAs? There have been numerous posts and discussions on that topic detailing all of the baggage that comes along with our SAs trying to compete in the D1 arena. Many feel it is not part of the core mission nor necessary. And by every objective accounting that can be found (including NCAA itself) even football is a net financial loss at USAFA. The best numbers available shows that AFA subsidizes it's D1 sports to the tune of 28 million dollars per year; and yes that seems to be above and beyond the 5-6 million in revenue football brings in.

Our family loves sports. Our DS and DD have competed at very high levels since they were young. I have coached teams along the way. Trust me when I say we understand the value of competitive sports and the lessons taught. But D1 is not required to build great officers and other far far less expensive options exist to gain the same benefits... Just ask our smaller SAs and SMCs.
 
Guess it was inevitable

that the IC parents, players, and sports not on the chopping block were brought into this. It would be ludicrous to believe for a second all IC's don't understand the no-IC-funding-at-SA's mantra some keep waving. Fine, we get, move on. Everyone feels bad on all levels about all affected with these cuts. What can the others do to feel bad enough for you? What should all the D1 IC athlete do for you, boycott their sports at the AFA so that your opinion is then made fact?
The SA's choose to have the IC sports, they feel they have merit regardless of profitability or challenges, your exception to it is noted. Since you're taking shots at the IC's in general let me add there is a lot of room between 'very high level' high school players and D1 athletes, especially those who could have played at any D1 school but chose to serve their country. I am tired of the IC not wanted argument. Fine, you made your point. Tough.
 
MedB said:
I think many of us can understand the frustration parents of those sports might feel.

I wonder if other IC parents can understand the frustration some feel that ANY money is spent on Div 1 sports at our SAs? There have been numerous posts and discussions on that topic detailing all of the baggage that comes along with our SAs trying to compete in the D1 arena. Many feel it is not part of the core mission nor necessary. And by every objective accounting that can be found (including NCAA itself) even football is a net financial loss at USAFA. The best numbers available shows that AFA subsidizes it's D1 sports to the tune of 28 million dollars per year; and yes that seems to be above and beyond the 5-6 million in revenue football brings in.

Our family loves sports. Our DS and DD have competed at very high levels since they were young. I have coached teams along the way. Trust me when I say we understand the value of competitive sports and the lessons taught. But D1 is not required to build great officers and other far far less expensive options exist to gain the same benefits... Just ask our smaller SAs and SMCs.
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Would my daughter have applied to the AFA if she had not been courted and recruited? Would she have applied if she knew her sport would not be funded? Good questions. She had lots of other scholarship opportunities. But whatever happens she will honor her commitment and I would like to see the AFA honor their commitment to her. Let the kids that are on campus finish their athletic careers and if neccessary stop recruiting.

And you are correct. The Air Force can produce leaders without D1 sports but have you ever been to an event off campus where the AFA is competing? Everybody is interested in these athletes and the AFA. I don't know how to put a dollar value on that.

So, to continue on that thought - how much does it cost to run the golf courses, the flyovers, air shows, NASCAR teams, monster trucks and so on that the the Air Force sponsors? Do they help produce leaders? I suppose you can argue that these events bring in qualified applicants - just like D1 sports do.

I also wonder how many "niche" sports could have been funded by the salaries of the two new assistant football coaches?
 
JMC0759 said:
So, to continue on that thought - how much does it cost to run the golf courses, the flyovers, air shows, NASCAR teams, monster trucks and so on that the the Air Force sponsors? Do they help produce leaders? I suppose you can argue that these events bring in qualified applicants - just like D1 sports do.

These things are not Academy funded they are Air Force funded two different budgets. The primary focus of anyone applying to a SA should be to be an officer and serve, the secondary focus should be to get a top notch education. Playing a D1 sport should be very low on the priority list, if it is high on the list then a non SA school would be a better choice.
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MombaBomba said:
We all realize it is the military. And it's a matter of too bad, it's what the brass wants, so you just have to suck it up and deal. But that doesn't lessen the loss that the current USAFA athletes of these 4 sports must come to terms with.
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I think the parents who are complaining need to put these cuts into perspective. Yes, it is the military and they are having cuts.

Your kid might lose a sport that they enjoy playing. I get it.

However, there are many more parents whose kids are looking at the prospect of losing their JOBS in the Air Force. There are Reduction in Force and Separation boards coming this summer for active duty officers in the year groups all the way up to 2012. These are graduates of the Academy who have planned on a career in the AF who will now be separated. They are losing a whole career, not just an extracurricular sport.

Please put that into perspective before you complain about your kid's "loss".

Stealth_81
 
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Stealth +1 To add to Stealth's comment and give you some perspective...my son AFA 08 is currently deployed in Afghanistan (his 7th deployment). They are required to have 4 flight suits among lots of other equipment..he was only issued 2 with the answer that due to Sequestration and budget cuts that is all they can issue him. AS you can see, there are cuts everywhere in the AF.
 
JMC0759 said:
So, to continue on that thought - how much does it cost to run the golf courses, the flyovers, air shows, NASCAR teams, monster trucks and so on that the the Air Force sponsors? Do they help produce leaders? I suppose you can argue that these events bring in qualified applicants - just like D1 sports do.
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If I remember right the Flyover for the AFA graduation was cancelled last year, that brought equal outrage on this forum.

There is an Air Force outside the AFA, these things you mention may not produce what you class leaders but I don't think that is the intent, recruitment and specifically enlisted recruitment is the intent.
 
JMC0759 said:
Would my daughter have applied to the AFA if she had not been courted and recruited? Would she have applied if she knew her sport would not be funded? Good questions.
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I have no doubt your DS is an exceptional person on many levels. The very fact that she gained an appointment to an SA and is interested in serving her country as an officer are testaments to this fact. So please know that I have the utmost respect when I answer the questions you posed...

"Perhaps she would not have not applied to an SA if her sport were not offered, and maybe that's ok".

The reality is there are literally thousands of exceptional young men and women waiting in the wings for the mere chance to attend AFA. The acceptance rate is about 11% or so if I recall correctly? If AFA did not offer certain (or any) D1 athletic opportunities, there may indeed be some families that are no longer interested in attending. An SA is not for everyone, the military is not for everyone, heck even college is not for everyone.... and that's ok.

The fact is your daughter will probably be successful and find a way to give back no matter where she went to school. That's just who most of these kids are as people. And the fact is that if your daughter (and my DD and DS) didn't choose AFA, there are still lots of other best and brightest who still would.
 
Stealth_81 said:
I think the parents who are complaining need to put these cuts into perspective. Yes, it is the military and they are having cuts.

Your kid might lose a sport that they enjoy playing. I get it.

However, there are many more parents whose kids are looking at the prospect of losing their JOBS in the Air Force. There are Reduction in Force and Separation boards coming this summer for active duty officers in the year groups all the way up to 2012. These are graduates of the Academy who have planned on a career in the AF who will now be separated. They are losing a whole career, not just an extracurricular sport.

Please put that into perspective before you complain about your kid's "loss".

Stealth_81
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My main point was missed completely. The USAFA just hired two additional coaches for football. Large announcement with a link to their bios on facebook. This after a "heart felt" letter on facebook talking about cuts in air force personel and the needs and concerns about cuts in sports and academics. Those of us involved with or who support gymnastics, rifle, fencing and boxing had moved on and accepted that those sports are not valued enough to be kept. We had moved on. Message was received loud and clear.

So how many air force jobs might have been saved and equipment purchased with the salaries of these additional football coaches?

Why is it no one has commented upon hiring of additional football staff?

I understand those who have come out and say perhaps there should be no D1 sport. I understand those who have come out and said its a pity its cancelled but its a hard economic times, and offer their sympathy.

What I don't understand is how people can come out and say suck it up butter cup, get over it, move on, and its all about officers and soldiers to those involved in these sports, but then remain utterly and completely silent about the expansion of football.
 
MombaBomba said:
My main point was missed completely. The USAFA just hired two additional coaches for football. Large announcement with a link to their bios on facebook. This after a "heart felt" letter on facebook talking about cuts in air force personel and the needs and concerns about cuts in sports and academics. Those of us involved with or who support gymnastics, rifle, fencing and boxing had moved on and accepted that those sports are not valued enough to be kept. We had moved on. Message was received loud and clear.

So how many air force jobs might have been saved and equipment purchased with the salaries of these additional football coaches?

Why is it no one has commented upon hiring of additional football staff?

I understand those who have come out and say perhaps there should be no D1 sport. I understand those who have come out and said its a pity its cancelled but its a hard economic times, and offer their sympathy.

What I don't understand is how people can come out and say suck it up butter cup, get over it, move on, and its all about officers and soldiers to those involved in these sports, but then remain utterly and completely silent about the expansion of football.
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I strongly suspect, but do not know, that the funding for those 2 assistant coaches did not come the Air Force or the Academy.
 
MombaBomba said:
Why is it no one has commented upon hiring of additional football staff?

I understand those who have come out and say perhaps there should be no D1 sport. I understand those who have come out and said its a pity its cancelled but its a hard economic times, and offer their sympathy.

What I don't understand is how people can come out and say suck it up butter cup, get over it, move on, and its all about officers and soldiers to those involved in these sports, but then remain utterly and completely silent about the expansion of football.
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As it has been stated before football makes money and therefore pays for itself along with other sports. If these other sports paid for their own programs then I am sure they would not be on the chopping block. There are plenty of club sports at the SAs that are fully funded by the Cadets, MIds who are involved with them. Maybe your DS's sport can become a club sport and be funded by the athletes so they can still compete.
 
I hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire. I understand what it feels like when your kid works so hard at a sport and then can't play - for whatever reason.

I found an article that discusses the costs of each sport and the coaches at USAFA. Yes, football is paid the most, followed by basketball, hockey and volleyball. That being said, they are self-sustaining sports and I suspect there was budget for 2 more coaches (or were they replacements?)

http://gazette.com/what-air-force-spends-on-sports/article/99861

I found this interesting:
Note: All coaches of nonrevenue generating sports (i.e. coaches other than those for football, men’s basketball, women’s basketball, ice hockey and volleyball) double as physical education instructors.

Maybe the cuts also included reducing the phys-ed staff? Dunno. What I do know is that there are a lot of cuts across AF right now. It all depends on the needs of the AF.
 
haz said:
As it has been stated before football makes money and therefore pays for itself along with other sports.
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Here's the thing though... Even though that belief is held by many, it is likely not accurate. By NCAAs own required reporting, only a small handfull of Football programs actually return a net profit (used to fund other programs or otherwise). The VAST majority of D1 Football programs run in the red when the final accounting is done... this appears to include USAFA, USMA along with roughly 90% of the other universities.

The shortfall is made up by "subsidizing" sports programs. The fact that some of these funds may come from different accounts/sources, does not change the fact that D1 sports are not revenue positive.... even Football.

Many make the arguement that there are other benefits in terms of awareness, recruiting, public relations, etc. and that may well be so. And if those efforts are worth the costs (not profit).... then those entrusted to make the call will do so accordingly.
 
MedB said:
Here's the thing though... Even though that belief is held by many, it is likely not accurate. By NCAAs own required reporting, only a small handfull of Football programs actually return a net profit (used to fund other programs or otherwise). The VAST majority of D1 Football programs run in the red when the final accounting is done... this appears to include USAFA, USMA along with roughly 90% of the other universities.

The shortfall is made up by "subsidizing" sports programs. The fact that some of these funds may come from different accounts/sources, does not change the fact that D1 sports are not revenue positive.... even Football.
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It's all there for the reading:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/REV_EXP_2010.pdf
 
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