No More Public AirShows

aseanag said:
Marines don't have an Academy. They whine on the Navy's site. Mr. Coast Guard Alumus USAF people can discuss whatever they want on their forum. Who are you to judge. USAFA traditions are their not yours. What matter to them is their issues not yours.
Whether it mini fridges, golf clubs or fly overs these traditions matter to them. It is the Air Force portion of this forum let them have their site to discuss what matters to them without our Coast Guard brothers belittling whatever they deem trivial.
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The USAFA (or USCGA, or whatever) forums are open to all to allow a free flow of ideas between people of different backgrounds. If you want to lock it so that only cadets/grads (and parents, sure, whatever :rolleyes:) then contact the mods but I don't see a whole lot of support there.
Just because he doesn't agree with you make LITS' argument less valid, especially when you're talking about "traditions" to a guy whose service has been in existence for 150+ years longer than the Air Force. There's a long line of butthurt and over-sensitivity in this thread.

Take a step back and think about what you're actually trying to argue here. Are you really saying that in a time where we're cancelling deployments, making drastic cuts in flight hours, and slashing training budgets, a flyover or airshow should be a priority?

(Also: Marines don't whine. It's the art of tactical complaining.)
 
sarahann said:
The USAF just annouced:



From Their Facebook Page....thoughts? I think the USAFA graduation should still have the Thunderbirds!!
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"Thoughts."

I think LITS is just answering the original question on this page... by giving his thoughts on the matter.
 
Hurricane12 said:
The USAFA (or USCGA, or whatever) forums are open to all to allow a free flow of ideas between people of different backgrounds. If you want to lock it so that only cadets/grads (and parents, sure, whatever :rolleyes:) then contact the mods but I don't see a whole lot of support there.
Just because he doesn't agree with you make LITS' argument less valid, especially when you're talking about "traditions" to a guy whose service has been in existence for 150+ years longer than the Air Force. There's a long line of butthurt and over-sensitivity in this thread.

Take a step back and think about what you're actually trying to argue here. Are you really saying that in a time where we're cancelling deployments, making drastic cuts in flight hours, and slashing training budgets, a flyover or airshow should be a priority?

(Also: Marines don't whine. It's the art of tactical complaining.)
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Hurricane:
Read my original post. I was looking for alternatives. As far as this forum is concern, the constant complaining about what matters to Air force by Coast Guard is annoying. FYI we didn't have air planes 150 years ago. I still say what matters to USAFA and there friends and families is their concern not Coast Guard. I have been on this forum for a few years and the lack of respect for your brothers in arms is alarming.
 
+1 Hurricane

Remember 203,000 flight hours are being cut, that is a lot of sorties if the avg flight time is 2 hrs. 100K sorties over 7 mo. @15000 per month, or 4000 per week, or 800 a day.

Right now it is about that flyover, but in a few months it will be about many of you flying. They are already acknowledging that come Sept., there won't be enough money for that last fiscal month at UPT bases. Don't full yourself...it also impacts the UPT students because those that wing in May are going to have the same problem at FTU. Which will than float back down to UPT.

What does that mean to you...it means backing up the class start dates for you guys. Right now many wait 6-9 months to start. It could have sped up because of new IFS regs, but not so much now.

I would love to see the craigslist ad...wanted flyby must have your own white aircraft with distinctive paint on the bottom. Willing to pay 200K for 30 seconds! Any inquiries please contact XXX-ZZZZ between 9 and 5 pm MST.

Can you imagine the parent who signs up to collect the funds? Can you imagine the laughter on the other end of the phone when they call the Thunderbirds to see if they can rent them out for the day?

Hi, this is Cadet Smith's Mom and we know you are being grounded, but if we donated 200K to your squadron could you just do a flyover on graduation day?

:shake::eek::shake::eek::shake:
 
USCGA13STN said:
"Thoughts."

I think LITS is just answering the original question on this page... by giving his thoughts on the matter.
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Your post #121 above was done with class. :) Others can take a lesson from you. Some people just enjoy rubbing people the wrong way.
 
Pima said:
+1 Hurricane

Remember 203,000 flight hours are being cut, that is a lot of sorties if the avg flight time is 2 hrs. 100K sorties over 7 mo. @15000 per month, or 4000 per week, or 800 a day.

Right now it is about that flyover, but in a few months it will be about many of you flying. They are already acknowledging that come Sept., there won't be enough money for that last fiscal month at UPT bases. Don't full yourself...it also impacts the UPT students because those that wing in May are going to have the same problem at FTU. Which will than float back down to UPT.

What does that mean to you...it means backing up the class start dates for you guys. Right now many wait 6-9 months to start. It could have sped up because of new IFS regs, but not so much now.

I would love to see the craigslist ad...wanted flyby must have your own white aircraft with distinctive paint on the bottom. Willing to pay 200K for 30 seconds! Any inquiries please contact XXX-ZZZZ between 9 and 5 pm MST.

Can you imagine the parent who signs up to collect the funds? Can you imagine the laughter on the other end of the phone when they call the Thunderbirds to see if they can rent them out for the day?

Hi, this is Cadet Smith's Mom and we know you are being grounded, but if we donated 200K to your squadron could you just do a flyover on graduation day?

:shake::eek::shake::eek::shake:
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As I have said from the start, it was smart move perception wise to cancel the flyover especially at that price point. I imagined it would be doable to raise money. But as other have pointed out, it's well over $1M (on average) per Thunderbird show. Hence, a group trying to get it done privately probably isn't going to happen. As you have helped me understand, asking for $$'s could cause another perception problem from people who just got laid off or were grounded etc. So it is what it is. No Thunderbird show.... I can live with that.

But it seems as though some people feel the need to minimize traditions (quoting the number of years the AF has been in existence), call others whiners, etc. That tone isn't appreciated. Some like myself wonder if this is their entertainment? It's why others are asking them to "go away". Having other points of view adds value. Everyone knows that. But having snide and sarcastic points of view seemingly for their own enjoyment gets old.

The horse has been officially been beaten.
 
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Pima said:
I would love to see the craigslist ad...wanted flyby must have your own white aircraft with distinctive paint on the bottom. Willing to pay 200K for 30 seconds! Any inquiries please contact XXX-ZZZZ between 9 and 5 pm MST.

Can you imagine the parent who signs up to collect the funds? Can you imagine the laughter on the other end of the phone when they call the Thunderbirds to see if they can rent them out for the day?

Hi, this is Cadet Smith's Mom and we know you are being grounded, but if we donated 200K to your squadron could you just do a flyover on graduation day?

:shake::eek::shake::eek::shake:
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Aint that the truth.

And there's a reason they don't go down this path (besides regulations). Let's suppose the pipe dream (spice dream these days) becomes reality and the ever involved parents raise $200K (and more) to have the Thunderbirds fly over the Air Force Academy at graduation.

Well, then Boeing comes along, or Warren Buffett or Bill Gates or Snookie... and they each want to rent out the Thunderbirds too.

"No no, we can't do all of that." said Gen. Binky.

"But you did it for the parents at AFA, a private group of citizens, why for them but not for us? Do we not pay taxes too? Do we not pay MORE taxes than those parents?" says private sector leader.

"Well yes, but see, AFA are VERY involved, and there are decades of tradition at stake here. Sure, the trillion dollar spending federal government and the hundreds of billions of dollars spending defense department doesn't see it important enough to fund, but you see, we have these very informed parents out in Colorado Springs, and they want it, and because they want it, we should do it." says Gen. Binky

"But I want it too. Why do they have preference?" says private sector leader.

"Oh and Air Force, where do you have the authority to accept this money?" chimes in private sector leader's lawyer.

Ah, but you don't want a Coastie chiming in at all. Here's what I'll say, that is beyond my "puddle pirate" centric experience, I worked with OSD-PA (quicky google it) and saw how air show and fly-over requests are handled. That is why we (my boss and I) ensured the Coast Guard didn't follow.

Finally, I'm guessing the Marines that walk across the stage at the Naval Academy would have a little something to say about "Marines don't have an academy".... first, it's NAVAL Academy, and Marines are naval officers (as opposed to Navy officers) and the Marine Corps is a naval service (like the Coast Guard), its officers go to Naval Flight School. So, yes, the Marines do have an academy, it's called the U.S. Naval Academy, and it's located in Annapolis, which is the capital of Maryland.

"Mr. USCGA Alumnus" sends.
 
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Your kids are training to be leaders in the Air Force. Please help me understand how you hope to explain to them why THEY should have a fly over and get special treatment while their future airmen won't.

"Well, we're Air Force Academy, so tradition states we must have a fly over airman." says 2nd Lt. Butterbars.

"But sir, we didn't get anything like that, and our MWR folks were furloughed so there's long lines at the Exchange now. Why don't we get money like that? SecDef said we all have to do our part."

How would you like to answer that one future officers "Mom and dad paid for it." You're entering the real military, it's time to understand there's more to that than dressing up and fun ceremonies. Your enlisted co-workers will look to you as an example. Start it off right.
 
cantwealljustgetalong.jpg


LOL!!!
 
Actually; the horse isn't dead yet. Government politics 101 states: "B.S. the people only until you pi$$ them off. Once that happens, throw them some crumbs and pretend you actually care".

In other words, Obama and the Whitehouse will whine that the republicans won't compromise and raise taxes. The Republicans will whine that Obama and the Whitehouse won't cut spending. The house has 435 people to distribute blame around to. The senate has 100 to distribute blame to. The whitehouse basically only has 2. Considering they have received increased taxes and raised debt ceilings, etc...; they will cut some things and the republicans will allow so tax changes. I would be surprised if the sequester is still in place by the end of March.

Not to say that the thunderbirds will have their schedule redone, but if the sequester is over, I'd say the thunderbirds will be at the academy for graduation.
 
Pima said:
+1 Hurricane

Remember 203,000 flight hours are being cut, that is a lot of sorties if the avg flight time is 2 hrs. 100K sorties over 7 mo. @15000 per month, or 4000 per week, or 800 a day.

Right now it is about that flyover, but in a few months it will be about many of you flying. They are already acknowledging that come Sept., there won't be enough money for that last fiscal month at UPT bases. Don't full yourself...it also impacts the UPT students because those that wing in May are going to have the same problem at FTU. Which will than float back down to UPT.

What does that mean to you...it means backing up the class start dates for you guys. Right now many wait 6-9 months to start. It could have sped up because of new IFS regs, but not so much now.

I would love to see the craigslist ad...wanted flyby must have your own white aircraft with distinctive paint on the bottom. Willing to pay 200K for 30 seconds! Any inquiries please contact XXX-ZZZZ between 9 and 5 pm MST.

Can you imagine the parent who signs up to collect the funds? Can you imagine the laughter on the other end of the phone when they call the Thunderbirds to see if they can rent them out for the day?

Hi, this is Cadet Smith's Mom and we know you are being grounded, but if we donated 200K to your squadron could you just do a flyover on graduation day?

:shake::eek::shake::eek::shake:
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Pima:
Parents group at USAFA assist in many endeavors at the Academy. Gifts are given for many different occassions. Ring Dance, Commiment Dinner, Exemplar dinner. Acceptance day, each year the Texas parents group cater a huge cookout for there cadets. Parents assisting in a flyover is not so over the top. Our parents group give gift to our cadet annually. There are all types of thing parents assist in at all the academies. You would know this if your DS or DD attended.

Like I said I was looking for options not insults.
 
We didn't have parent's groups when I joined the air force. Matter of fact, most of parents changed the locks as soon as we left home. :shake:

I can say that for the 4 years that my son was at the academy, I was never involved with the "Parent's Group". Being I'm also an ALO, would make a presence at the parent's club BBQ during parent's weekend at the football game tailgate. But that usually lasted about 10 minutes, then I was back to Thudgate drinking beer and weed.

Parent's groups definitely have their place, but they are not going to fund the thunderbirds at graduation. Just because you WANT to fund raise for something, doesn't mean it's for sale. Even if you came up with the million dollars, I doubt very much that the air force is just going to say: "Sure, we'll have them there Wednesday". If the Thunderbird program is shut down, say for 2 months, that means they are also not practicing. They don't just fill up with gas one day and start flying towards each other and going tropo at the last second without some practice.
 
aseanag,

As in any forum intonation can not be read...that last part was done as a joke to try to divert the conversation for getting this thread into lockdown mode.

I understand that parents want the tradition, but honestly, there are no suggestions to be had for the loss of a flyover. The best you can hope for is a nearby base doing a formation, but here's the problem with this idea.

Every sortie has a mission. They probably could meet some mission. 4v4 Air to air, or maybe hit a range, even do some re-fueling. However, the flybys are timed to a minute. They arrive early and the graduation is running late for whatever reason they are circling up there wasting more fuel. Fuel that they can't afford right now.

It has been said some squadrons right now will be out of money by end of July early Aug. They are going to start cannibalizing jets soon. If they kick the wheels and it has 3 flights left, even though today they will double turn, they are going to hope that they don't need to do a touch and go on one of those sorties.

I am not criticizing parents for wanting their children to get that whole experience, but tell me what can we suggest to take place of a flyby? There is no answer.
 
Weeeeell, I hate to disagree with you CC, but I've been smelling glue on this thread for a while now.

Look. Does it stink that the tradition of the fly-by and air show when the hats are tossed by the graduating class will be cancelled this year? Of course it does. (but in later years, they will have the "distinction" of being able to tell people "yeah, I was in 13, the "Class without the T-Birds"." So, they got THAT going for them at least. :redface:) It is a reward (sort of) for all their years of hard work, a recognition of what they have accomplished, a "tradition", and let's face it, IT'S JUST DARN COOL!

Know what else is a tradition in the AF? Pilots actually getting to fly training sorties in preparation for going to war. Keeping our people razor sharp so when our nation calls and the klaxon does go off, they're ready for the challenge. Well, THAT little tradition is taking a kick in the pants because of the sequester as well. And yes, I do see that most people here "Get It", particularly the cadets posting on here (and I'm proud of them for it): it's disappointing, but in the bigger picture they understand.

Airshows ARE expensive. Fly-bys don't come at minimal cost to training (as was incorrectly mentioned before. I should know, I've been involved in a few in my time). The do serve a purpose (recruitment and "showing the US taxpayer what he/she is paying for"), but that purpose is MUCH lower in priority than actually getting ready to accomplish the mission.

And the Mission ALWAYS comes first. It's a core value drilled into these young cadets from Day 1: Service Before Self.
 
Christcorp said:
We didn't have parent's groups when I joined the air force. Matter of fact, most of parents changed the locks as soon as we left home. :shake:

I can say that for the 4 years that my son was at the academy, I was never involved with the "Parent's Group". Being I'm also an ALO, would make a presence at the parent's club BBQ during parent's weekend at the football game tailgate. But that usually lasted about 10 minutes, then I was back to Thudgate drinking beer and weed.

Parent's groups definitely have their place, but they are not going to fund the thunderbirds at graduation. Just because you WANT to fund raise for something, doesn't mean it's for sale. Even if you came up with the million dollars, I doubt very much that the air force is just going to say: "Sure, we'll have them there Wednesday". If the Thunderbird program is shut down, say for 2 months, that means they are also not practicing. They don't just fill up with gas one day and start flying towards each other and going tropo at the last second without some practice.
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At this point most parent/cadets just want a flyover, not the whole show. There are many aviation squadrons Military and Non military that could do the flyover. Thunderbirds would be nice but not neccessary.

You may not have been involved in your Parents group, but they are many that are involved and making a difference in YOUR USAFA.
 
aseanag said:
You may not have been involved in your Parents group, but they are many that are involved and making a difference in YOUR USAFA.
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THEIR USAFA... something parents tend to forget (at every academy).

So you just want SOMETHING to fly over them? Send a glider. Boom, problem solved AND no fuel (at least on the way down).
 
+1 CC

If they aren't practicing they are not MQ. It takes certain amount of flights to get back to that MQ. Thus, my bet is right now they will still flight, but these will be just to maintain Q status.

FWIW. I recall an O6 that got red-lined for O7...why? Because when he was T-Bird commander he accepted a Ping golf bag with the Thunderbird embroidered on it. :thumbdown:


As CC stated he was never involved in the group. I recall when Bullet made O4 and O5 the promotion party was always a joke because there were some that were willing to put in that 1 months pay raise, some that would if no money went to alcohol, and some that said go away!

Just because you are willing to spend the 200, even if they could do it legally or for 200 per parent, you are assuming every parent agrees with it. What if they could, but it was a million, how many people are going to ante up 1000 for 5 mins? I will tell you as a Mom that has watched my child raise his hand and take the oath as his father commissioned him, I wouldn't pay 1K.

That week alone is a chunk of change for families to come from all across the nation. Some of these parents are paying for their other kids colleges too. Some don't have an endless pocket. Yes, their kid didn't cost them a penny to attend, but it doesn't mean that they have that money laying around after paying for airfare, hotels, rental cars, 3 meals a day, and some sight seeing.

For me if I am going to spend 200 bucks, I would give it to my child and tell him, trust me in 1 yr from now that 200 bucks to set up your 1st home will mean a heck of a lot more (bigger TV, pots, pans, sheets) than the 30 second flyby.
 
Bullet my brother; what do we disagree on???

Other than a few smart a$s remarks, I think the only thing I've commented on, is that I think the sequester will be over with by the end of the month. The government will compromise.

Oh, 2013 is also the class that had all the Swine Flu cases during BCT. They'll definitely be remembered.
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aseanag; I'm sure your's and other's parents group do some really good things. I'm simply telling you, that it's very unlikely that you're going to 1) Fund a flyover; and 2) Do such a thing in 60 days. (Raise money, find a company that has planes and will fly over, if you try and get a state's guard unit, they will have to go through their bureaucracy to get approval; get permission from Denver/Colorado Springs for a flyover flight plan; get permission from the base and DOD to allow flying said planes over a military installation. "especially if they are civilian"). I'm sure I forgot a few details. But if you can do all this and get it scheduled in the next 60 days, then have at it.

The fact is: 1) The sequester is ended within the next month and the thunderbirds start flying again; and the academy is always a priority. The only other place I know of where they fly EVERY YEAR without exception, is Cheyenne Wyoming frontier days. So flying the academy graduation is definitely a priority.

Now; I haven't looked it up, but MANY fly bys and air shows have been cancelled because of weather. I would not be surprised if an academy graduating class didn't have the thunderbirds or a flyover. Does it suck if they can't fly over? Yes. Accept it and move on. It is what it is. They'll have the flyover if they have it. if they don't, then they don't.
 
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