Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

afmom2 said:
The share of ever utterance remark:
My son is home and what I know is what he happened to share. He's a tough kid, strong willed and independent. He has also been a varsity athlete and knows perfectly well about being part of the team and has dealt with lots of adversity and challenges. He roomed with s prior and that prior found this bct more difficult than his previous 2 trainings. The point is that the flights are all managed differently. Good or bad. Yes, just like the real world. It's unfortunate though, that some dreams may have been cut short due to the power trip of a few young cadre with personal grievances and agendas. This has nothing to do with lack of ability or desire to serve.
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Afmom, I'm very sorry that your son is now home but you make some very strong accusations for someone who was not there. How do you know cadre had personal grievance and agendas? Was your son privy to this information or this an assumption based on his experience?

You are understandably upset and hurt, but a lot of what you are saying looks to me like you are angry and looking for someone to put the blame on. Did the thought occur to you that maybe your son REALLY didn't want to be there and instead of admitting it to you and you getting upset with him for quitting he deflects to the Cadre Abuse as an excuse? That would sure take any pressure off of him and you'd certainly never be the wiser. I'm not saying it went down that way, but it is possible.

As others have stated there are regular AF personnel with the cadre directly supervising them. What you are accusing seems a stretch. I wasn't there and won't say there wasn't abuse, but neither were you....

Remember these accusation you are making are at another person's son/daughter.
 
The truth is, with the exception of injuries, no one is sent home from the academy 100% against their own doing. Meaning, the individual must have had some performance issues that lead to their dismissal. One may believe or rationalize that it was a personal attack against them, and that they were performing satisfactorily, but that simply can't be true. If an individual was being trained differently or treated differently than any of the other 1200 there, that definitely would have been exposed. The cadre of cadets doing the training don't make the final decision whether a person stays or leaves. Officers do.

Even if it's true that some of the cadre may have abused their power, if it had been 100% their fault, the individual would not have been sent home. Obviously, the individual had a part in themselves not making it through and staying at the academy. Again, each case is looked at individually. The cadre doesn't get to say this one needs to leave and the officers just sign a piece of paper and sends them home.

It's possible the cadre created an environment that demoralized an individual and affected their performance. But that environment is not individualized. They aren't pulling an individual out of the group constantly and making them do more or other things than the rest there. The bottom line is that anyone who leaves the academy, must have had a part in the process. They weren't a 100% innocent victim. There's too many checks and balances in place. And with those checks and balances, which I'm very aware of, no individual is being singled out to the point where their training was so different than anyone else's.

This is difficult to accept sometimes. Especially when the academy is something many thought and tried so long to get to. But until you get there, you have no idea what you're in for. As such, your performance may simply not be satisfactory. Even though you are giving it 100%. Just like giving everything you've got with the CFA. That doesn't mean you'll ace it or even pass it. Some individuals simply don't perform satisfactorily during training at the academy, and are asked to leave.
 
AFmom, what is his next step, where is he going to attend college now? Is it too late for this year, it seems like there is still time?
 
Rocko said:
afmom2 said:
The share of ever utterance remark:
My son is home and what I know is what he happened to share. He's a tough kid, strong willed and independent. He has also been a varsity athlete and knows perfectly well about being part of the team and has dealt with lots of adversity and challenges. He roomed with s prior and that prior found this bct more difficult than his previous 2 trainings. The point is that the flights are all managed differently. Good or bad. Yes, just like the real world. It's unfortunate though, that some dreams may have been cut short due to the power trip of a few young cadre with personal grievances and agendas. This has nothing to do with lack of ability or desire to serve.
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Afmom, I'm very sorry that your son is now home but you make some very strong accusations for someone who was not there. How do you know cadre had personal grievance and agendas? Was your son privy to this information or this an assumption based on his experience?

You are understandably upset and hurt, but a lot of what you are saying looks to me like you are angry and looking for someone to put the blame on. Did the thought occur to you that maybe your son REALLY didn't want to be there and instead of admitting it to you and you getting upset with him for quitting he deflects to the Cadre Abuse as an excuse? That would sure take any pressure off of him and you'd certainly never be the wiser. I'm not saying it went down that way, but it is possible.

As others have stated there are regular AF personnel with the cadre directly supervising them. What you are accusing seems a stretch. I wasn't there and won't say there wasn't abuse, but neither were you....

Remember these accusation you are making are at another person's son/daughter.
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Rocko, everything you have touched upon I truly understand. My issue is that my son and the other basics were told they if they had any problems or concerns they could speak confidentially to their element? leader. He chose to do so but his flight commander sat in on this meeting and berated him terribly. This was to be a safe zone. After that meeting the two cadre in question really turned up the heat. At home we only received one brief phone call saying I'm thinking about leaving. Of course we responded that we will support his decision, but to think hard about it and don't give up so soon. We are no strangers to USAFA and have some upperclassmen connections as well as officers in the COS area. None were allowed to see or speak with my son. I was told that his cadre wouldn't allow it. How can a basic cadet receive any support from his peers if they are not allowed. Even a highly ranked firstie visited him to offer support, but had to do it in public on the QT which was brief and not personal.
In response to the personal grievances and agendas. It was shared with the basics from upper cadre: career ending sport injuries which they were angry about. Also, Usafa was letting too many weak individuals attend. "The U.S. Air Force must rebuild to be stronger and have more Elite Special Forces." We all know there are many different career fields of Air Force officers. The guy in charge of this flight feels they all need to be Rambo.
Thanks to those for your kind words of encouragement, and sharing your personal stories as well. I know my son will have learned from this experience and will have success taking some other path. Blue Skies!
 
F15DOC said:
AFmom, what is his next step, where is he going to attend college now? Is it too late for this year, it seems like there is still time?
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F15Doc, he's still working on plan B. It may include ROTC, but too soon to know for certain. Thanks for the support and good luck to you!
 
USAFretired1996 said:
AFmom2, did your son say how many Basics in his flight resigned?
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Two that he is aware of. He was singled out and given the business early on after an illness. They weren't happy he was away from the flight for a brief time. Once he spoke up they just turned up the heat. Example, field day he was not allowed to sign up for a sport. That cadre told him don't bother, you'll be leaving anyway. Of course I only know one side of the story but as I mentioned it was acknowledged by other cadre that he was being singled out. They disapproved but it ends there. No complaints were ever made.
 
Afmom2,

There are specific avenues readily available for basic cadets to reach out and above the cadre immediately assigned to their flight. Information about these avenues simply could not have been withheld.

Upperclassmen and permanent party officers not assigned to the BCT program are not authorized to interact with basic cadets, this is not a decision the cadre have anything to do with. Think about how it would look if one member of a flight were removed to go talk to an officer/upperclassman their parents have connections with. A basic cadet should be focused on building support within the flight. Parents and friends can offer support through letters.

I am not absolving the cadre of blame, but I believe you are assigning them too much.

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I believe there are specific avenues of support. However, once my son spoke to someone "in confidence", his cadre just made it worse for him. He felt he was toast and didn't stand a chance in that flight. Someone wanted him to quit. He was told every day by this individual that he was worthless and didn't deserve to be there. My son finally gave in to that pressure. He could not tolerate being there any longer. Not in that squad for the next year. I understand that the cadre in command for bct2 were much better and well respected. Unfortunately he did not stick it out to see that there were other styles of leadership within his squad.
Regardless of what I say or think, everyone has their own opinions. Many basics and cadets leave for very good reason. But please do not dismiss the idea that some, maybe just a few, are persuaded.
 
Christcorp said:
The truth is, with the exception of injuries, no one is sent home from the academy 100% against their own doing. Meaning, the individual must have had some performance issues that lead to their dismissal. One may believe or rationalize that it was a personal attack against them, and that they were performing satisfactorily, but that simply can't be true. If an individual was being trained differently or treated differently than any of the other 1200 there, that definitely would have been exposed. The cadre of cadets doing the training don't make the final decision whether a person stays or leaves. Officers do.
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I am not sure if you were addressing Afmom2's case in particular. In her case, her son choose to leave. He wasn't kicked out.
Also, hazing and singling out only gets noticed by PP if someone reports it or if PP happens to be around enough to observe it. Bullies can be quite clever in the timing of their actions, and they are not easy to catch or observe in the act. I don't think hazing/singling out is rampant, but they are young human beings with power over others. One or two might get caught up in some sort of power trip. A few may be carried away and not realize what they are doing. If her son was told that the cadre in question was being assigned punishment/demotion for what happened, and if there is a process for it then it can and has happened. The problem is the "damage has been done" by the time a "bully" is caught and punishment administered. Please note, I am not saying or even implying "bullying" is a rampant problem, I am only saying it can happen.

Regardless, it is good to know how the system works when it comes to this stuff. Thanks for so many explanations on this thread. I have found them enlightening.

AFrpaso said:
There are specific avenues readily available for basic cadets to reach out and above the cadre immediately assigned to their flight. Information about these avenues simply could not have been withheld.
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The problem here is that during BCT, many basics may feel intimidated and/or fear retribution for speaking up. I am not saying retribution is a problem in the USAFA. I am saying that it is a general overall concern many have no matter where they attend or what they do in life. (In the business world an employee not speaking up because the employee might get fired or passed over for promotion etc..) During basic, especially beast 1, there is an emphasis on breaking a basic down using both psychological and physical activities such that a basic can be built back up again later on. This process in and of itself may cause feelings of insecurity, doubt and fear. As such, there could be hazing and singling out going on, but it isn't reported due to those fears. Those fears could also be causing the basic to falsely perceive hazing or singling out. Just because the procure to report is introduced and explained, it doesn't mean that the basic is able to take advantage of it (fear, retribution, active prevention, etc..). Also, with all the stress a basic is under, how much procedural knowledge is fully retained at the time of it's presentation? One of the interesting stories coming out during the 2014 fall semester was how each C4C seemed to remember different pieces of information on procedure etc.., but not one of them seemed to remember it all. Thus, they were asking each other questions about "how do we?" I suspect that type of thing goes on every year.

If bad behavior never happened, there would be no process in place to handle it. There would be no need for it. The issues is where does perception start and reality begin?
 
My son described similar experience throughout - not necessarily alone one on one - but relentless beat down. He understood all of this to be part of a "game with a purpose". One cadre in particular seemed to "have it in" for him no matter what he did - again which was totally expected. Even during boarding ceremony my son had asked the cadre to board him and expected the guy to "take off the mask" and be less of a hardass. Nope, he boarded my son and said "It's only going to get harder. As a doolie you're a slave". No "congrats", "no good job"....Not the love fest some seem to have had. Fortunately, my son was / is ready for this - doesn't like it - but understands the purpose. We grow best / most through discomfort and while some people are understandably uncomfortable with that thought, it is true. I am sure I would feel differently if my son had reacted differently to the extremely tough conditions of bct. This may be very insensitive,so please forgive me, but If bct didn't cause a few to not stay I would question how rigorous and effective it is. I am sure expectations have a lot to do with a cadet and family's responses to extreme situations and what is/isnt acceptable. For my son, I believe he needs this for his growth. He doesn't need to be comfortable he needs to be pushed and stretched.... As long as "the mask" comes off after recognition.

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I am also a cadet parent here... my only credentials so bear with me. I am posting this as a general observation to posts on this thread.

Why do we think that the cadre will be our child's friend or be someone that will be a "comfort" to them? I don't think that's their role in BCT, there are people responsible for that. They are there to break the individual "me" and build up the group "us" with whatever guidelines they were given including psychological and physical methods. Attrition is built into the system. Some basic cadets are supposed to leave for whatever reason they have otherwise I, too would question the rigor and effectiveness of the training. If they can't handle BCT with a handful of cadre, what are they going to do during Recognition when the whole wing is involved???

Everybody thinks their kid was picked on, I did too, two years ago. But having seen BCT from the other side, I would have to say that it really wasn't personal. Everybody got "beat." Everybody. It is really how they deal with that beat down that will make them stay or leave. Honestly a lot of the kids at BCT have never heard an unkind word spoken to them and they are shocked that they are not so special anymore.

As I play devil's advocate - maybe some kids really didn't want to be there and the convenient excuse is that the cadre did this and they did that therefore I left. It gives them an out. The parents are not upset at them but at someone else. They can assign blame to others and thereby justify leaving because of "them.". It's always easy to say "well I left because XYZ was picking on me" than " I left because I found it too hard and couldn't take it." And one always has to wonder "why in the world would the cadre pick on this one kid?" There has to be a reason.

Again I apologize if this sounds heartless but I see a lot of blaming here and would like to offer another point of view. Ok I have my flame retardant suit on...
 
skismuggs said:
I am also a cadet parent here... my only credentials so bear with me. I am posting this as a general observation to posts on this thread.

Why do we think that the cadre will be our child's friend or be someone that will be a "comfort" to them? I don't think that's their role in BCT, there are people responsible for that. They are there to break the individual "me" and build up the group "us" with whatever guidelines they were given including psychological and physical methods. Attrition is built into the system. Some basic cadets are supposed to leave for whatever reason they have otherwise I, too would question the rigor and effectiveness of the training. If they can't handle BCT with a handful of cadre, what are they going to do during Recognition when the whole wing is involved???

Everybody thinks their kid was picked on, I did too, two years ago. But having seen BCT from the other side, I would have to say that it really wasn't personal. Everybody got "beat." Everybody. It is really how they deal with that beat down that will make them stay or leave. Honestly a lot of the kids at BCT have never heard an unkind word spoken to them and they are shocked that they are not so special anymore.

As I play devil's advocate - maybe some kids really didn't want to be there and the convenient excuse is that the cadre did this and they did that therefore I left. It gives them an out. The parents are not upset at them but at someone else. They can assign blame to others and thereby justify leaving because of "them.". It's always easy to say "well I left because XYZ was picking on me" than " I left because I found it too hard and couldn't take it." And one always has to wonder "why in the world would the cadre pick on this one kid?" There has to be a reason.

Again I apologize if this sounds heartless but I see a lot of blaming here and would like to offer another point of view. Ok I have my flame retardant suit on...
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It is always good to look at it from all points of view, and I have played devils advocate a time or two myself. I wasn't there, I didn't see it. I know it is hard and supposed to be hard. I also know young human beings are in charge. I believe bullying to be the exception and not the rule. At some point, it has to have happened to some basic or other in the past, else there would be no process in place to handle it nor punishments outlined.

I realize there are going to be some basics there who can't handle it for whatever reason. Maybe they never were corrected/put in their place/etc. etc. etc. before. Maybe their preconceived ideas differed greatly from reality. Maybe they were there for the wrong reasons.

I don't know any of the parties involved. I do know there is a family out there trying to coming to terms with what happened, and letting others know of their experience. Maybe some future candidate or his parents have been following this thread, and as a result, it is causing them some deeper soul searching. Perhaps there can be good coming out of this: awareness of the "bully process" (lack of a better term) in BCT , that it is going to suck, and the basic may feel " singled out bullied" at the time, but it is perception as opposed to reality.

To future applicants, basic is going to suck. It wasn't designed to be fun and enjoyable. There will be moments of joy and feelings of great accomplishment, but most of the time it is designed to push a basic beyond what that basic thinks he/she can handle. As a basic, you will be placed in a situation where no matter what you do, it won't be good enough. No matter how hard you try, it won't be enough. You will be set up to fail because you need to learn how to handle, learn from and recover from failure.

I suspect basic is harder for those who have never faced serious adversity or failure before.
 
Thats it MombaBomba.... it is the no win scenario.... the Kobyashi Maru test all over again.
How do you handle failure, you will be pushed to failure, that is the point... what is over the line, nobody knows because it is a moving target.
For those of you that don't know that test, nevermind, its just my Star Trek nerdom coming out...
 
When I was working BCT, I saw some interesting varieties of responses. Some Basics really didn't consider corrections important unless you REALLY emphasized it. If it wasn't worth cadre yelling, it wasn't worth their time to fix--or at least that is how it seemed. We had another who was failing to progress, but clearly could. Every time we corrected him, he just seemed to shut us out. It took a week of grinding away, before the flight commander sat him down for a heart-to-heart. Turns out, this basic considered anyone raising their voice to him as a dramatic and personal attack on his character and abilities. His family and social group only raised their voices in extreme circumstances. Once the flight commander explained that we yell to get attention and for emphasis, he started performing much better.
 
F15DOC said:
Thats it MombaBomba.... it is the no win scenario.... the Kobyashi Maru test all over again.
How do you handle failure, you will be pushed to failure, that is the point... what is over the line, nobody knows because it is a moving target.
For those of you that don't know that test, nevermind, its just my Star Trek nerdom coming out...
Click to expand...

HAHA, Kirk found a way!
 
raimius said:
When I was working BCT, I saw some interesting varieties of responses. Some Basics really didn't consider corrections important unless you REALLY emphasized it. If it wasn't worth cadre yelling, it wasn't worth their time to fix--or at least that is how it seemed. We had another who was failing to progress, but clearly could. Every time we corrected him, he just seemed to shut us out. It took a week of grinding away, before the flight commander sat him down for a heart-to-heart. Turns out, this basic considered anyone raising their voice to him as a dramatic and personal attack on his character and abilities. His family and social group only raised their voices in extreme circumstances. Once the flight commander explained that we yell to get attention and for emphasis, he started performing much better.
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It is interesting to see how the yelling and corrections affect people during the summer. We had a total of three people leave during the summer, one for medical, and two who decided it was not for them. This is with us having what was considered a "difficult" flight (other flights would pass us and tell us that they were praying for us...). Some people just let the yelling wash over them, while some still think that the cadre legitimately dislike them. Basic is a curious thing, you can see people's responses to situations that most of society will never be in.
 
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