Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

[afmom2020]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know the numbers, but it's coming from the Academy. The cadres are being instructed on this, so if they are violating order, they are at fault. I think that's why there are so many upset people.

Regardless of the issue in this thread, I think it will become very important for USAFA to deal with this issue when it comes to the Basics who didn't quit, because why should 4C trust cadres that already disobeyed orders?

Afmom2020, I understand your concern, but I think you're painting with a very broad brush. The cadre did not disobey orders. Why in the world would they intentionally put their careers on the line like that? Ok, not saying that a few don't do stupid things. A very small few do. As already stated in this thread, there are checks and balances already in place. They need to be used. They are used. Some don't get caught - that's life.

I'm a mom to a 2018-er. By anyone's standards, they had one of the toughest BCT in recent years. Even my DH thought they had it pretty tough. My DD survived it and is very proud of that fact. No 2019-er wants anyone to think they had an easy basic. No one. They are tough, strong, and resilient. Those that survived it, I can assure you, are incredibly proud of themselves.

BTW, that doesn't mean that some won't quit. Being proud of yourself but realizing this isn't for you are two different things.

I'm actually not worried. I don't think that in the end, it will cause all basics to quit, because plenty of basics went through this before them, but as I said to LITS, I think this was a problem that was easily foreseeable and that the academy should have paid more attention since it occurred more often than it should have.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I'm not sure, for what you've explained, if PT cards are something the basics are aware of or it's something for the cadre to keep track with.

The basics didn't really know what those guidelines were though you could probably figure it out as you went along.

You would be surprised. We were trained the summer we were cadre by the Coast Guard Company Commanders from Training Center Cape May. Everything we did to swabs was done to us first. In the middle of IT it's really hard to keep track of time or counts…. all you want to do it finish. And yes, we could do long long counts… which were extra painful.

 

[Boozebin]

A cadet could probably answer this better than I could, but it's my understanding that the PT card was something the cadre used as guidelines for training during BCT only. It's new this year and probably due to all the injuries during BCT last year. Let's face it, injured basics can't pass/take the PFT!

The basics didn't really know what those guidelines were though you could probably figure it out as you went along.

They knew some of it if not all. My DS knew about it BEFORE BCT started. I don't know if he found about because he was at Prep last year but word got out about the PT cards and what the limits per exercise were and that you couldn't work the same muscle groups or same exercise in a row (Can't remember which right now but I know my son said it one way or the other).

As a side note he thought it was going to be way too easy if they used the cards called me after BCT and said it was the hardest thing he ever did even worse than Prep BMT.

 

[LineInTheSand]

OK, I was picturing AFA basics with little cards checking off exercises. "Geez whiz guys, can't do any more flutter kicks today, we're at the limit."

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

OK, I was picturing AFA basics with little cards checking off exercises. "Geez whiz guys, can't do any more flutter kicks today, we're at the limit."

Hehe, that's funny. I'm sure a few basics would have liked that option!

Ok, I have something to share: After BCT last year, my DD almost had enough. By the end of the first semester, she had settled in, knew the routine but still had "what the heck did I get myself into" moments. The day before Recognition I spent 3 hours on the phone with her. She had been told by 2 or 3 uppers that she was going to be targeted. After Recognition she told me that it was the hardest thing she had ever done, even harder than BCT. Just a few days ago, I'm speaking with her about her new classes and said something about BCT and Recognition. She said, "you know, Mom, there were actually fun parts to both those. Recognition was also where I proved myself to my classmates and the upperclassmen. It wasn't so bad."

Ah, how perspectives change.

 

[Kirkmanj]

A few observations for perspective:

1. The length of this thread proves that HONOR is important to both sides: one side: that we expect honor from the cadre, and honorable cadre, however tough, should act to bring individuals into the team, not out; the other side: that it is difficult and dangerous to judge a cadre's motivation, therefore, we should presume honorable intention as long as the cadre are acting within their given authority. Any attack on that presumption of innocence, absent clear proof, is an attack on the honor of the Academy itself. Both sides are true; therefore, we ought to treat each other with respect and honor in our discourse on this forum.

I told my DS before he arrived that the cadre might try to make him want to quit just to hear him say he is not a quitter, and believe him. I told him he had to prove he wanted to be there, and that no matter what they might say, they wanted him to prove it to. This relationship is rooted in honor: the understanding that, if you give your very best, you will have the respect of your squad and your trainer. "Acceptance" day and "Recognition" are about respect, earned. The process, with its imperfections, allows them to do this. We must trust the honor of the institution to which we entrust our children, and the strength and resilience of our children to overcome adversity even in the face of perceived injustice of the moment. This does not mean it is not possible to be bullied, but I think the discussion proves that it is rare and discouraged. Anecdotally, I thanked a cadre at A-day for the remarkable transformation of the squad since I-day. Instead of "you're welcome", he said "It will make sense to them in a few years." As in Christcorp's and other's posts, there is honor in this when it is for their good--even if they do not see it at the time--just as there was genuine pride in the Class of 2019 on the part of its leaders today. Trust in their honor, because it is real.

Final observation for harmony and safety:

2. Speculation, rumor, and unsubstantiated hearsay are dangerous, divisive, and destructive. This thread originally arose out of false numbers, then morphed into a discussion on the theoretical "possibility" of alleged reports of unfair treatment with dishonorable intent. The discussion devolved and almost became entertaining. But it is not. Many on this forum may worry whether their sons and daughters are being abused and whether it was a mistake to entrust them to a SA. Rumors and speculation feed doubt and breed division. Let it end here. Let us trust this institution we have already committed to trust and support until it is proven guilty by competent evidence, and even then, let us trust the chain of command and military justice to address any offenses. Beyond that, let us trust our capable children to deal with their circumstances as men and women of honor.

My DS apples to USAFA because of the calibre of individuals he saw there. He wants to be of that calibre, just as yours do. I joined this forum because of the calibre, commitment, and love (even tough love) displayed by the long-term advisors found here. Certainly, there is room for healthy discussion, but never let us impute dishonor, divide, or react based on fear, doubt, or anecdotal evidence. There is a reason why hearsay is excluded as evidence in court. It must be tested before it is deemed reliable. But this is not a courtroom. It is bigger than that--it is about learning to trust your commanders in matters of life and death, that they and their orders are honorable.

This task deserves, and requires, a strong presumption of honor, as well as a presumption of innocence, that should only be questioned through proper channels based upon clear and convincing evidence. This forum, with due respect to people's desire to question, vent, and worry, is not the place to present any allegation of potential wrongdoing, unless it is to ask where to make a proper inquiry. Ignoring this will only divide us and undermine our children in their common mission.

As always, I am grateful for the dedicated parents and contributors to this forum for their advice and support for our common cause.

 

[Boozebin]

As always Kirkmanj well said.

 

[flieger83]

Folks I'm late to the dance here an I apologize for that. Many thanks to Stealth81 for following it closely while I was absent...food poisoning is a bad thing.

This thread has value, until folks start to pick at one another; then it devolves into something ugly, and of little use other than to stir the pot of angst. Again, I thank Stealth81 for letting everyone know that the line was being pushed. I'm not going to close the thread, I think there are many good points yet to be made however I will be watching this closely and if folks forget the real reason we're here, then it will be closed.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Patience]

Waded through this thread and saw a lot of untruths. I am very familiar with what happened at upper levels of BCT this summer. Anyone that wants to PM me with questions is welcome to. Two big clarifications that I would like to make...
1. The PT card was only for reps and that cadre were encouraged to hold the down position etc because USAFA leadership saw that as a way to make it difficult AND satisfy medical requirements. Medical Staff were aware of this and saw no issue with it.
2. Cadre were also encouraged to step up the mental game due to lower physical training allowances and did so with professionalism. Their "attacks" were more questions of whether or not each Basic had truly considered the implications of attending USAFA. Little effort was made to keep Basics that wanted to leave not because of a quota, but because if they needed their hand held through BCT, they would simply be a drain on their classmates in the Academic Year. No one told them to leave, but the Academy is never dying to make someone stay. If they don't belong here, there is a process for that.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

Patience - I really appreciate your perspective!

However (and you saw that word coming, right?), using the word "untruths" implies people lied and is somewhat inflammatory. These are parents, ALOs, BGOs, etc -- all of whom have the best interests of the cadets in mind. I honestly don't believe anyone lied or told "untruths". "Misunderstood" or "misinformed" are much better words in this context.

 

[FalconsRock]

using the word "untruths" implies people lied and is somewhat inflammatory.

83Gradwife, I respectfully disagree as an untruth is something said that is not true regardless of whether the person lied or not. You can say something and believe it is true without lying but it is still untrue. I believe that Patience was presenting the facts and those facts were not in line with some things that were said. I do not believe he/she was implying that anyone lied nor was singling anyone out as a liar, but setting the record straight as to what really happened. Instead of beating a dead horse, he was giving information straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. Sorry, could not resist. Sometimes I make my self laugh

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

using the word "untruths" implies people lied and is somewhat inflammatory.

83Gradwife, I respectfully disagree as an untruth is something said that is not true regardless of whether the person lied or not. You can say something and believe it is true without lying but it is still untrue. I believe that Patience was presenting the facts and those facts were not in line with some things that were said. I do not believe he/she was implying that anyone lied nor was singling anyone out as a liar, but setting the record straight as to what really happened. Instead of beating a dead horse, he was giving information straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. Sorry, could not resist. Sometimes I make my self laugh

I have no problem with that and actually agree with him. It's just that a public forum can be so impersonal & things can be misinterpreted so easily. I've had a couple of PMs from people who took that post personally, so I wanted to point out how easily that can happen. Words have meaning, but meanings are interpreted by us faulty humans.

Regardless, it's not my intent to start another flame war or cause any disruption. I think this particular conversation can stop here.

 

[Patience]

I apologize for the conception that I was out to call anyone a liar. I was more of the mind that things needed clarification because people were unwittingly giving out information that was not correct. I have the correct information (I assure you) and want to share what I can to let people know that this BCT has been rated the best in the past four years. We cut injuries by over a third, beat the record for inprocessing by 2 hours, and had a Form 34 rate less than a half a percent higher than last year, including the much greater number of basics who were found unfit to enter the wing by a board at the end of the summer. This means that about the same percentage as usual decided to quit, but there were more that were not Accepted based on various factors, all extensively documented, which those specific Basics were counseled on repeatedly.

Again, PM's are encouraged with specific questions and I still haven't gotten any, so perhaps I have answered the big questions. The "cadre discipline" issues all crossed my desk and I can assure you it was nothing as bad as some of what I have read.

 

[Kanye's Dad's Sock Puppet]

Waded through this thread and saw a lot of untruths. I am very familiar with what happened at upper levels of BCT this summer. Anyone that wants to PM me with questions is welcome to. Two big clarifications that I would like to make...
1. The PT card was only for reps and that cadre were encouraged to hold the down position etc because USAFA leadership saw that as a way to make it difficult AND satisfy medical requirements. Medical Staff were aware of this and saw no issue with it.
2. Cadre were also encouraged to step up the mental game due to lower physical training allowances and did so with professionalism. Their "attacks" were more questions of whether or not each Basic had truly considered the implications of attending USAFA. Little effort was made to keep Basics that wanted to leave not because of a quota, but because if they needed their hand held through BCT, they would simply be a drain on their classmates in the Academic Year. No one told them to leave, but the Academy is never dying to make someone stay. If they don't belong here, there is a process for that.

I apologize for the conception that I was out to call anyone a liar. I was more of the mind that things needed clarification because people were unwittingly giving out information that was not correct. I have the correct information (I assure you) and want to share what I can to let people know that this BCT has been rated the best in the past four years. We cut injuries by over a third, beat the record for inprocessing by 2 hours, and had a Form 34 rate less than a half a percent higher than last year, including the much greater number of basics who were found unfit to enter the wing by a board at the end of the summer. This means that about the same percentage as usual decided to quit, but there were more that were not Accepted based on various factors, all extensively documented, which those specific Basics were counseled on repeatedly.

Again, PM's are encouraged with specific questions and I still haven't gotten any, so perhaps I have answered the big questions. The "cadre discipline" issues all crossed my desk and I can assure you it was nothing as bad as some of what I have read.

I am interested to know where encouragement came from and how was it communicated? Was that decision made by 4C cadets or commissioned officers? Was that encouragement outlined in written directives regarding BCT training or all done word of mouth? Thank you.

 

[MombaBomba]

I apologize for the conception that I was out to call anyone a liar. I was more of the mind that things needed clarification because people were unwittingly giving out information that was not correct. I have the correct information (I assure you) and want to share what I can to let people know that this BCT has been rated the best in the past four years. We cut injuries by over a third, beat the record for inprocessing by 2 hours, and had a Form 34 rate less than a half a percent higher than last year, including the much greater number of basics who were found unfit to enter the wing by a board at the end of the summer. This means that about the same percentage as usual decided to quit, but there were more that were not Accepted based on various factors, all extensively documented, which those specific Basics were counseled on repeatedly.

Again, PM's are encouraged with specific questions and I still haven't gotten any, so perhaps I have answered the big questions. The "cadre discipline" issues all crossed my desk and I can assure you it was nothing as bad as some of what I have read.

I highlighted the spot which led me to ask "what are some things that can result in a cadet not getting Accepted?" I suspect there is an "attitude" one, but what constitutes a bad attitude? I don't know where that line would be at an academy.

 

[Badge250]

I am interested in some information here too. Maybe others in the future could benefit as well. It was my understanding (a little naively) that if a Basic finished basic cadet training that they would be accepted into the cadet wing and that all the Basics who were not accepted were separated during basic training. What Patience wrote here seems to imply that some finished basic but were brought before a review board and not accepted. Is that correct? How does that work and as Momba has already asked, what actions would lead to a cadet not getting accepted?

 

[afmom2020]

Yeah that part confused me too. I'd love to have some explanation, because the military life is like an onion. Every time you've peeled a layer, you discover another one you had no idea about.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

I am interested in some information here too. Maybe others in the future could benefit as well. It was my understanding (a little naively) that if a Basic finished basic cadet training that they would be accepted into the cadet wing and that all the Basics who were not accepted were separated during basic training. What Patience wrote here seems to imply that some finished basic but were brought before a review board and not accepted. Is that correct? How does that work and as Momba has already asked, what actions would lead to a cadet not getting accepted?

I PMed Patience directly and was told that fitness is one aspect of the program that Basics can fail and some did. I suspect this happens every year, it could be because a basic can't finish the Assault or Obstacle course, or weight/height ratio is at issue, etc.

 

[Christcorp]

I won't comment on the lower numbers or similar. I said I was done with that. But I will say that the academy is a progressive institution. Meaning, it's not as simple as past BCT and all your troubles are behind you except worrying about academics.

There are many things that can get a cadet dismissed from the academy. And these things can be addressed during BCT or days, weeks, months, or even years after BCT. Fitness, weight, attitude, other military standards, etc. and has been said numerous times before, any separation from the academy, is reviewed by the officers and nco's at the academy. The other cadets don't make the final decision.

As far as where the lines are that can be crossed, the cadets are counseled when their performance in whatever area, is substandard. The academy isn't going to publish an article or website listing all of their standards. Just like most job interviews don't tell you why you didn't get the job. Or why "At Will" employees aren't always told why they are being let go. It's not important that the academy post or publish some place all of their standards. What is important, is that the cadets know what is expected of them. That they are counseled when their performance doesn't meet standards. And that they know what will happen if they don't improve. And I assure you, the cadets know these things. They may not like them. They may not agree with the evaluation sometimes. But they do know them. And because these cadets are either legal adults of 18 years or greater; or they are emancipated individuals who signed the paper with their parents permission; that's all that matters.

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

I guess I should have included that Patience said that basics "are counseled", so thanks Christcorp for adding that. Obviously I am not the expert!