Stereotypes are easy to perpetuate and difficult to break.
What a Joke
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Its wrong because its unequal. Trying to "serve a goal" simply performs a reverse bias thereby cheating the other. So what you're saying its OK to perform a bias against a non-URM. Using URM status with equal/nearly equal is fixing one wrong with another wrong.
If you want the best and brightest, URM should never be used.
No one (at least me) has said they are "substandard". That is your words.
#42 had great athletic skills and was selected for those skills without regard of his color. I am talking about giving a QUALIFIED URM a bonus over a QUALIFIED non-URM simply because they are a URM.
Oh and by the way... URM refers to more than race so I don't know why people have to suddenly make it all about race. Its about using individual characteristics that are irrelevant to a person's character, intelligence, etc. to make a prejudiced decision about their future.
I keep coming back to situations like the above (and congrats to your son, Midshipdad17). Rather than debating the whole URM thing, why not just try and figure out why this young man got in and you did not? Here he is, middle class white male...he did it. MANY other non URMs do it. Why not start there and consider first how to be in their shoes?
At least, I would think, that would be PART of the analysis rather than focusing solely on "I didn't get in because of a URM"...because that may NOT be the reason as I understand it.
S
I am happy to hear you feel URM at our academies are just as qualified as Non URM. #42 had great athletic skills just as our Mids/Cadets but #42 was given a chance to prove himself in the big leagues just as our Mids/Cadets are proving themselves. Until you meet them and research there backgrounds you can't say if they are not meeting the standards that the academies have set. There is only one thing you know for sure and that is they are not NON URM's! Great young people that we should all appreciate and Thank them for there service.
I agree URM stands for many things. It stands for the bright young person from West Virginia that may not have had certain opportunities, young women from Seatle, WA that growup in a single family home, young African American inner city male that has work and made his own way without any guidance from adults. It stands for many diverse aspects of our society, but the thing that makes America strong is it's ability to pick the cream off the top. Cream raises to the top in all aspects of our society. Let take advantage of our talent no matter what race, creed, or color.
So let me see if I understand this.
You and your neighbor are equally qualified.
If you get the appointment then the system worked, if your neighbor gets the appointment then it's because he's a URM and the system is broken.
Nice try claiming this has nothing to do with Race in your opinion, you do realize what URM stands for right?
futuremarinemom
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This. You only have control of your own application packet. Work hard to make it the very best, and let the chips fall where they may. MANY excellent candidates get turned down. Yes, it is discouraging, but try to use your energy working to improve yourself and go to plan B. As my DS says, "Difficulties are made to be overcome."
What I find interesting in this thread is that most of those complaining are focusing on the fact that they have not or may not get a appointment to an Academy. I thought the goal is to be an Officer in the US Military. Academies are just one path to take, and in the Army's case not even the largest path, Marines as well. Seems to me all this energy could be put to better use finding the next opportunity to reach your goals, unless the only goal was the appointment to the Academy.
I truely hope that those who did not receive an appointment also applied for ROTC Scholarships, if they didn't receive a scholarship then hopefully they have a Plan C. This is of course if Military service was the first goal.
I truely hope that those who did not receive an appointment also applied for ROTC Scholarships, if they didn't receive a scholarship then hopefully they have a Plan C. This is of course if Military service was the first goal.
Luigi59
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Sophocles said:
Apparently he is correct 2,400 years later.
aseanag said:
Can you point out where anyone has said that URM that gain appointmetns are not qualified?
Debate the issue, don't make things up to bolster your position.
I've posted the data showing the percentages of qualified (read it again) minorities who gain appointment vs qualified non-minorities.
Now tell me again how fair it is, using discrimination to make up for......discrimination.
If you visit the SA campus and 8 out of ten are of one race and the rest are sort of of like looking for waldo then they should and must give it to the lesser represented demographic. The powers that be had set it up so nobody drinks from a different fountain or sit in the back of the bus just because they have a box to check off anymore. The day that there is no lopsided representation of any specific demographic will be the day that they can do away with this selection quirk if it even does exist today.
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But the hypothesis you proposed was that they were both equal, except one got to check the URM box! And I didn't say there was a bias against someone, I said picking one over the other, who were otherwise equal, would serve another goal. You have to find some way to pick between two otherwise equal people. Whatever criteria you use is going to be seen as bias by the other, right?
How is it discrimination if the URM is qualified? Many URM don't apply to the academies because they are unaware that they exist. What is the acceptance rate for Women, Asians, Native American versus applicants. Is the problem just African American being accepted at a higher percentage or is it a problem with women, Asians, Native Americans, etc. If USNA is able to find qualified URM to admit what is wrong with that?
iceman2018
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wriDw6NiR2A
Here's a young man who have gone to college and did ROTC for a couple of years before finding out about the AF academy. He was already a C3C cadet at the AFROTC detachment in college but had to start over again.
You can keep trying to get in until you're 23. If this is your goal, there's more than one route to become an officer. Don't lose heart just because you didn't get an appointment. It's not over until you decide to give up.
Yes, unfortunately my hypothesis is confusing. So let's change it.
They are 100% equally qualified, except the non-URM has an SAT 10 points higher.
From the words of MLK:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
Whether using URM to discriminate or whether using URM to favor, you are judging by their physical characteristics and not their character. That is wrong, especially when those involved grew up in the same neighborhood, school, etc..... (in other words - they had the same opportunity).
And yes, two candidates growing up on the same block, attending the same schools.. the Academy has selected the URM...
Vista123
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Ok, Im about to take a very unpopular stance here, and I apologize in advance to the MANY that I offend.
As you can see from my avatar I am a hockeymom so like to equate life with hockey.
Look at it this way: In a hockey club there are levels. Top team is Gold, Next is silver, then bronze, etc. If we are very honest here the top 14 kids (80%) on Gold are 'all that and more', bottom three kids on the gold team, however, skill-wise are relatively interchangeable with the top three kids on the silver team. So what makes a kid sent to the silver team instead of the gold? Any number of nonskill factors that are still hugely important to the team. Some are negative factors: Is the dad a menace in the stands? Is the mom known to be rude to the manager? Do the parents never pay their slush fund fee on time? Is the kid always late? Is he disruptive in the locker room? Some are positive factors: Will the mom agree to be manager? Is the kid squared away in the locker room? Is the kid a leader in off ice training even though he may not have great on-ice skills. For Navy we dont know the non-skill factors that were in our (or our child's) application (LOR, BGO Interview etc)
My Point in my folksy ramble (more to the 2018s working on their application):
1.) I warn my kids over summer when they can decide to train hard for fall hockey tryouts or not , DONT BE THAT BOTTOM THREE KIDS. Dont make it easy to be cut. There is always one more thing you can do. Do every single thing you can to maximize your entire package.
2.) for a certain group of people "trying out" for the Navy team their skills (acts, grades, president positions, cfa) are interchangeable-the ones who posted here are very high to be sure. So the Navy team (the team is NOT USNA its the NAVY btw) is looking for something that satisfies some of their objectives. Two being minority and geographical diversity. To some it may seem unimportant. But for this Navy team it was deemed important. With Hockey to have a winning season the intangibles: Off-ice training, locker room compatibility and non cancerous parents are just as important as the skills. With Team Navy they have their intangibles to-which is to have the officers be a representation of the fleet. Keep in mind that their group of minorities is different from the civilian's group of minorities.
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Unless you have a transcript of the interview and have read the essays, you have no idea what may have been the deciding factor, and a 10 point difference in the SAT is nothing.
You want total fairness in your eyes, join ROTC, it's all about the points and there is no box to check for URM, but be careful what you ask for, a lot of those URM's have done very well and the competition is tough.
futuremarinemom
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Are you saying that you know of this happening? I still say that there are other variables that you are not privy to. Test scores aren't everything. There are interviews, recommendations, etc to be considered. Maybe the URM scored better in these areas. For you to say that the URM was only selected because of the URM status is also judging by physical characteristics.
Lets say a URM and a non-URM work at the same part-time job and spend their breaks comparing notes during the application process. Then lets say that the non-URM is better in academics (GPA, SAT, etc), better in athletics (champion varsity athlete), both passed CFA and DODMERB with flying colors, both attended NASS and both invited to CVW, both get Sen noms. But the URM gets an appointment. It does make one wonder how the selection process was done.
And of course, no one can confirm or deny the effect of the URM status, nor the contents of the interview, etc..... But yes, I believe it happens....
Or how about this. White father, hispanic mother create a URM growing up in same area with same quals as a non-URM. Yet one gets the influence of a URM.
At what persentage does the URM no longer exist???
I am not against URM WHEN it can be proven that they truly grew up disadvantaged (i.e. inner city, single mother, etc.). But URM as a checkbox does not prove a need for a helping hand.....Use of URM negatively is against the law, but then using it positively is wrong.
Finally, I want to repeat this STRONGLY, no where have I said a URM is not qualified or selected ONLY because they are a URM or that a URM is stupid or that URM is only about race. I am saying that a URM may be given a "bonus" that exceeds a non-URM's better academic and athletic stats and that is reverse-discrimination.
And of course, no one can confirm or deny the effect of the URM status, nor the contents of the interview, etc..... But yes, I believe it happens....
Or how about this. White father, hispanic mother create a URM growing up in same area with same quals as a non-URM. Yet one gets the influence of a URM.
At what persentage does the URM no longer exist???
I am not against URM WHEN it can be proven that they truly grew up disadvantaged (i.e. inner city, single mother, etc.). But URM as a checkbox does not prove a need for a helping hand.....Use of URM negatively is against the law, but then using it positively is wrong.
Finally, I want to repeat this STRONGLY, no where have I said a URM is not qualified or selected ONLY because they are a URM or that a URM is stupid or that URM is only about race. I am saying that a URM may be given a "bonus" that exceeds a non-URM's better academic and athletic stats and that is reverse-discrimination.
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futuremarinemom
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One can wonder how the selection process was done, but one will never really know. The fact is, there are only so many slots to fill, and many qualified applicants will be turned down. Those applicants can make excuses and blame discriminatory practices, or they can use their disappointment as the motivation to be even better next time or to go another route (ROTC, OCS, etc).
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Amen.
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