Is USNA acceptance rate slightly unethical?

Is it ethical?

  • Yes

    Votes: 32 88.9%
  • No!

    Votes: 4 11.1%

  • Total voters
    36
I have also read about how USNA is ranked such and such on XXX survey. #1 Public School, etc...BUT how is the survey done? What is the population surveyed?

At some juncture in the process, even for the briefest time, a parent and/or candidate will give a cursory look at the college rankings that also include the SA's. Those rankings have become a big business of their own as countless numbers annually begin to examine and explore their college choices.

Some are better than others clearly and predicated on the methodology they employ and if you agree with that methodology e.g. a survey vs. objective data which can be defined. One of the favorite resources that folks use is for example, US News & World Report who pretty much created this industry for the masses just as they have for hospital rankings nationally. Whether you buy into what they put out is up to the individual of course but at least to their credit they have have identified what their methodology actually is.

Here it is if you're interested: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings
 
I apologize if this has been a topic of discussion before, but I read that the 1200 out of 16,000 applications statistic is BARELY true. Not to say it is not extremely competitive, but I believe they count people who submit a preliminary app and don’t do anything else..

Do you guys think it’s justified bc most people who don’t continue are scared away by the application, or do you think it is sort of sketchy for them to lower the acceptance rate in this way.

Why does it really matter what statistical methodology the USNA uses an acceptance rate? Everyone one knows it is very difficult to receive an appointment to any service academy. Who cares if only 5% or 10% (depending on how the calculation is completed) of applicants receive an appointment? Many things in life are not an apples-apples comparison; you make a judgement and use the data how you see fit. Take the USNA data for what it's worth and move on.
 
Why does it really matter what statistical methodology the USNA uses an acceptance rate? Everyone one knows it is very difficult to receive an appointment to any service academy. Who cares if only 5% or 10% (depending on how the calculation is completed) of applicants receive an appointment? Many things in life are not an apples-apples comparison; you make a judgement and use the data how you see fit. Take the USNA data for what it's worth and move on.
It matters because I believe it is misleading people to make the academy seem more prestigious than it is. Personally, I would want to go there if it had a 50% acceptance rate, but that's not the point. I believe it's more like 5,000 people who actually complete the application, with or without nom.. this makes it more like a 20% acceptance rate, but as many others have said, it has a very unique application process and every school comes up with their own way to make their institution seem more prestigious.
 
It matters because I believe it is misleading people to make the academy seem more prestigious than it is. Personally, I would want to go there if it had a 50% acceptance rate, but that's not the point. I believe it's more like 5,000 people who actually complete the application, with or without nom.. this makes it more like a 20% acceptance rate, but as many others have said, it has a very unique application process and every school comes up with their own way to make their institution seem more prestigious.

The more I find out through my own experiences with people, forums, grads, visiting other colleges (and their placement ratings), nieces and nephews graduating and their opportunities/lack of employment, etc etc etc, the more I understand the prestige awarded with a USNA degree is not related at all to the acceptance rate.

It’s the alumni. Educators and staff. Networking. Leadership training. Curriculum. Military training. Summer leadership/training programs. Internships. Interactions with respected and proven leaders.

To me, that’s where the prestige is tacked on to. Not the acceptance rate.
 
The Washington Post article is from December 2011.
So what? They haven't changed anything about the way they calculate the acceptance rate as far as I know. Every year they say, "candidate x was one of 16,000 applicants to be appointed..." -- but that's as close to not true as a true statement gets. I understand what Devil Doc said though.
Key phrase there "As far as I know"

I do know of at least one group/category that was removed from the applicant statistics since the time when this article was written.
I'd rather not give the details but long term BGOs/admission folk might remember it.
 
Well after all he has been writing online, there's no way he will get his job back.. right?
Also this: "Records: Fired Naval Academy professor sent picture of himself in Speedo to students" -- that's pretty funny.

Now to Professor Fleming --there are lots other threads about him here, some love him and some hate him.
I hate how he disparages the Naval Academy, but as an "enlightened" (or in modern day parlance "woke") soul, I recognize that dissenting views are necessary in an academic environment, and USNA does have a tendency toward "group think" and in ways, Professor Fleming's thoughts are accurates. However, I would prefer that he handle them like a mature adult and address the issues with the appropriate chain of command than running to the Washington Post.

As to the question about getting his job back ... I presume he is a federal employee, and the the federal employment system works in mysterious ways. If the issue was simply criticism of USNA, he wouldn't have been fired ...but the inappropriate pics or other actions are likely sufficient to uphold termination in this day and age.
NEWSFLASH: Yesterday, the Merit Systems Protection Board upheld Prof Fleming's appeal and directed that he be reinstated with backpay. Personally, I think this is not a plus for USNA.
 
Why does it really matter what statistical methodology the USNA uses an acceptance rate? Everyone one knows it is very difficult to receive an appointment to any service academy. Who cares if only 5% or 10% (depending on how the calculation is completed) of applicants receive an appointment? Many things in life are not an apples-apples comparison; you make a judgement and use the data how you see fit. Take the USNA data for what it's worth and move on.
It matters because I believe it is misleading people to make the academy seem more prestigious than it is. Personally, I would want to go there if it had a 50% acceptance rate, but that's not the point. I believe it's more like 5,000 people who actually complete the application, with or without nom.. this makes it more like a 20% acceptance rate, but as many others have said, it has a very unique application process and every school comes up with their own way to make their institution seem more prestigious.
You are questioning USNA's ethics and state it is misleading people, and yet you claim you want to go there. Interesting... I'm starting to question if you are truly a 2024 candidate or just trying to have fun on this forum.

As far as the definition of 'completed application', that includes the actual on-line application, all forms (including a passing DODMERB), a passing CFA, and a completed BGO interview. This definition is on the USNA website. I am trying to think of any civilian school that requires a completed physical and eye exam, along with a passing score on a physical fitness test, and a completed interview for their applications to be considered 'complete.' To state that USNA is misleading people is insulting to the institution and everything it stands for.
 
NEWSFLASH: Yesterday, the Merit Systems Protection Board upheld Prof Fleming's appeal and directed that he be reinstated with backpay. Personally, I think this is not a plus for USNA.

YGTBSM.. federal employees are truly bullet proof. I don't have time to locate the decision online, but suspect some element of a "retaliation" defense is involved.

Agree , this isn't good for USNA. While I can support academic freedom and dissenting speech, he did it wrong --and its going to be even worse now that he thinks he's bullet proof.
 
NEWSFLASH: Yesterday, the Merit Systems Protection Board upheld Prof Fleming's appeal and directed that he be reinstated with backpay. Personally, I think this is not a plus for USNA.

I just read this. Not surprised to be honest, but agree. I have a feeling he is going to come back with a vengeance and see how much more he can push things. It was interesting to read some of the articles about the complaints Mids made.
 
YGTBSM.. federal employees are truly bullet proof. I don't have time to locate the decision online, but suspect some element of a "retaliation" defense is involved.

Agree , this isn't good for USNA. While I can support academic freedom and dissenting speech, he did it wrong --and its going to be even worse now that he thinks he's bullet proof.

I read an article a few years ago that someone was more likely to die while in federal employment than be fired. After spending nearly two decades working within the federal system... not surprised.
 
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Why does it really matter what statistical methodology the USNA uses an acceptance rate? Everyone one knows it is very difficult to receive an appointment to any service academy. Who cares if only 5% or 10% (depending on how the calculation is completed) of applicants receive an appointment? Many things in life are not an apples-apples comparison; you make a judgement and use the data how you see fit. Take the USNA data for what it's worth and move on.
It matters because I believe it is misleading people to make the academy seem more prestigious than it is. Personally, I would want to go there if it had a 50% acceptance rate, but that's not the point. I believe it's more like 5,000 people who actually complete the application, with or without nom.. this makes it more like a 20% acceptance rate, but as many others have said, it has a very unique application process and every school comes up with their own way to make their institution seem more prestigious.
You are questioning USNA's ethics and state it is misleading people, and yet you claim you want to go there. Interesting... I'm starting to question if you are truly a 2024 candidate or just trying to have fun on this forum.

As far as the definition of 'completed application', that includes the actual on-line application, all forms (including a passing DODMERB), a passing CFA, and a completed BGO interview. This definition is on the USNA website. I am trying to think of any civilian school that requires a completed physical and eye exam, along with a passing score on a physical fitness test, and a completed interview for their applications to be considered 'complete.' To state that USNA is misleading people is insulting to the institution and everything it stands for.
I was actually asking if people think they are misleading people because I wasn't sure... You're really questioning whether or not I am a valid candidate because I am questioning whether a minor practice in their admissions office is ethical? yikes.
 
You could also look at it as 19,000 students are interested enough to attempt to apply.
1900 make it through that attempt.
1500 are selected.
But anyone who applies is someone who has to make it through that application process.
Instead of just a admission counselor saying yes/no, the process says yes or no throughout the process.
Do you have high enough SAT?
Can you pass the physical test?
Can you pass the medical test?
Can you get a nomination?

At other colleges people would apply to say Harvard and say "what the heck". They don't have to have any SAT or GPA to apply.
That is what opening a file is...saying "What the heck."
But then you are filtered out as the process goes along, instead of just at the end.
 
There is an expresssion about there being three type of lies. Lies, damned lies and statistics. These acceptance rates are manipulated by all colleges. All a college has to do is let prospective students know that their is no fee to apply (especially through the common app) and the number of applications will increase with the acceptance rate decreasing. Does having low acceptance rates influence you from applying to a school. Yes and no. My younger son applied to most of the top ten film schools in the country. He didnt bother applying to the USC Film school partially because the acceptance rate is so low but mostly because they requested much more in terms of essays and porfolios. Between all of the extra work and the low acceptance rate, it didnt seem to make any sense. However, he applied to Chapman College whose Film school acceptance rate is like 10% but its requirements to get in are in line with what all of the other film schools require. As for what the Navy does, lets call it an exaggeration, but they arent going to shoot themselves in the foot by not playing the same game every college does
 
What is Bruce Fleming’s problem? He also wrote that article: “Naval Academy Graduates: No Better Than The Citizens They Serve”....

The article is also 8 years old. Fleming clearly has an ax to grind with the Academy (talk about biting the hand that feeds you). It’s one person’s opinion/take. Take with many grains of salt. The facts are all out there for everyone to form their own view. It almost doesn’t matter. It is what it is. Anyone who chooses a college based solely on advertisements said college puts out probably isn’t doing enough research to make an informed decision anyway. I have four kids (1 at USNA) and it always baffled me how few and/or non-substantive questions parents ask on college visits.
 
I read an article...that someone was more likely to die while in federal employment than pass away...
I don't know what this means, Hoops! Nothing but love though! :D

I was actually asking if people think they are misleading people because I wasn't sure... You're really questioning whether or not I am a valid candidate because I am questioning whether a minor practice in their admissions office is ethical? yikes.
It's the Internet, and here at SA Forums we get a few trolls. Pair that with a new account and low post count, and you get the idea.
I hope your eight or nine month application process ends with an Offer of Appointment.
We all do.
 
Hmmm, I am beginning to suspect that the OP may live under a bridge...
Why? Very prominent users have defended both sides of this topic. Not sure there really is a clear cut answer.

The title of the post, coupled with the poll, combined with the tone of your posts in this and other threads, all contribute to an overall sense of trollishness. Perhaps that is an unfair and unwarranted characterization on my part, but it is what it is.

The simple answer to the poll question is that there is absolutely nothing unethical in the acceptance rated posted by USNA. They are trying to compare apples to apples, which is not really possible, since there are only two other universities in the country that have equivalent application requirements. So instead of stating the acceptance rate of applicants that are fully 3Q with a qualifying nomination, which would not be comparable whatsoever to a traditional university, they are reporting the acceptance rate of individuals who submit an application at all, which is eminently comparable.

For instance, at Colorado School of Mines, academically gifted high school students are invited to apply based solely on their prescreened value as determined by the College Board. No application fee, no letters of recommendation, and no essays are required. The applicant only provides their identifying information and a transcript. That's it. Similarly streamlined processes exist at a multitude of four year universities across the country. Those universities report acceptance rates of applicants who follow that abbreviated process. Other, slightly more discriminating, universities require an essay or essays. Still more rigorous admissions offices require letters of recommendation. However, even the most onerous application requirements imposed by traditional universities are not at all comparable to what is required by USNA, USMA, USAFA, or USCGA for that matter.

When considering the acceptance rates at the SAs, it is essential to remember that a material aspect of the declination process is the rigor and duration of the application process itself. Applicants are declined based on their own failure to fully complete all of the myriad steps of the process. They are declined based on their inability to qualify scholastically. They are declined based on their inability to qualify athletically. They are declined because of their inability to qualify medically. They are declined based on their inability to obtain a nomination. They are declined based on their inability to pass a personal interview. Seemingly endless links in the application process chain, all of which must be forged together in order to achieve an appointment. Failure to connect any one link will result in declination of the application.

So roughly three quarters of initial applicants effectively reject themselves, before the SA ever has to consider the merits of the fully complete and qualified application of someone who is 3Q with a nomination. While the SA may not make a merit-based admissions decision with regard to the vast majority of submissions, those individuals were still applicants for admission. And, in order for comparable admissions numbers to be disseminated to the general public, those self-limiting applicants must be factored into the equation.
 
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