Is USNA acceptance rate slightly unethical?

Is it ethical?

  • Yes

    Votes: 32 88.9%

  • No!

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Total voters
    36
2

2024candidate

Swimmer
Joined
Jul 6, 2019
Messages
279
I apologize if this has been a topic of discussion before, but I read that the 1200 out of 16,000 applications statistic is BARELY true. Not to say it is not extremely competitive, but I believe they count people who submit a preliminary app and don’t do anything else..

Do you guys think it’s justified bc most people who don’t continue are scared away by the application, or do you think it is sort of sketchy for them to lower the acceptance rate in this way.
 
2024candidate said:
I apologize if this has been a topic of discussion before, but I read that the 1200 out of 16,000 applications statistic is BARELY true. Not to say it is not extremely competitive, but I believe they count people who submit a preliminary app and don’t do anything else..

Do you guys think it’s justified bc most people who don’t continue are scared away by the application, or do you think it is sort of sketchy for them to lower the acceptance rate in this way.
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Why don't you conduct your own experiment. Have all of your friends work through the application process. Better yet, work to get your entire high school to apply. Then, see how many get appointments.

How many do you think get an appointment if you could pull this off?
 
No. Not slightly, not moderately, not severely. USNA is quite transparent about how many initiate the process, how many make it through each significant step, and how many receive offer of appointment. It's there for anyone to find, so USNA isn't being dishonest at all. Every college sets its own criteria for calculating acceptance rate, applying their own set of "asterisks" to qualify the final number. Do research into any school's self-reported statistic and you'll see there are differences throughout.

By the way, if a prospective candidate is intimidated by USNA's very low acceptance rate, and that somehow keeps them from applying, then that's their problem, isn't it? I'd say that they don't want to attend USNA enough. There's not necessarily any shame in that. USNA isn't for everyone. There are other honorable ways to win butter bars and become a commissioned officer.
 
Yeah, I agree with you guys. I just read a fiery article online saying it was misleading and completely disingenuous and I was wondering what this forum thought.

That's a good point that every school has their own asterisk when it comes to acceptance rates, but I just feel like USNA takes it a little bit too far.

It's like if I opened the common app and made an account and on the sign up page selected schools I might be interested in.. those schools couldn't count me as an applicant.. right? I might be tired, but I think that made sense..?
 
This has indeed come up before. Due to a Freedom of Information Act request back in 2011, it was found that the USNA "inflated" application numbers by counting all "pre-applications" (NASS included) in their overall number of "applications". Some believed that it was a conscious effort to make entrance into the SA seem more "prestigious", and some believed that they were just "playing the same game" as other universities in the country.

Now, if you believe some of the parents of Mids who are there now, there were at least 60,000 applications for those 1,200 spots when their dear son or dear daughter got in. :D

Personally, I don't really care about the numbers. When I hire people, it's not their resume that I'm hiring.
I do think that the optics of this casts a negative light on the Academy, so whatever they can do to disparage that sort of thing ("disingenuous-ness") would be time well spent., in my opinion.
Just my opinion, though.

The article is probably written by Bruce Fleming.
 
THParent said:
This has indeed come up before. Due to a Freedom of Information Act request back in 2011, it was found that the USNA "inflated" application numbers by counting all "pre-applications" (NASS included) in their overall number of "applications". Some believed that it was a conscious effort to make entrance into the SA seem more "prestigious", and some believed that they were just "playing the same game" as other universities in the country.

Now, if you believe some of the parents of Mids who are there now, there were at least 60,000 applications for those 1,200 spots when their dear son or dear daughter got in. :D

Personally, I don't really care about the numbers. When I hire people, it's not their resume that I'm hiring.
I do think that the optics of this casts a negative light on the Academy, so whatever they can do to disparage that sort of thing ("disingenuous-ness") would be time well spent., in my opinion.
Just my opinion, though.

The article is probably written by Bruce Fleming.
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What is Bruce Fleming’s problem? He also wrote that article: “Naval Academy Graduates: No Better Than The Citizens They Serve”....
 
He was (by most unbiased accounts) an effective English professor, who had tenure and was fired. There is a lot on him here.
He is still appealing his firing, but I don't think he has a chance. I'm also okay with that.
 
Professor Fleming has been around a long time and has written many articles. I actually had him as a Professor very early in his career at USNA. He was slated to go to the appeals board in May to contest his firing. It doesn’t appear a decision on the appeal has been given yet, or at least, it hasn’t been reported on.
 
NavyHoops said:
Professor Fleming has been around a long time and has written many articles. I actually had him as a Professor very early in his career at USNA. He was slated to go to the appeals board in May to contest his firing. It doesn’t appear a decision on the appeal has been given yet, or at least, it hasn’t been reported on.
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Well after all he has been writing online, there's no way he will get his job back.. right?

Also this: "Records: Fired Naval Academy professor sent picture of himself in Speedo to students" -- that's pretty funny.
 
I would not call it unethical. I only joined this community a couple of years ago and it was apparent then how they calculate the acceptance rate.

What I would like to see is that the 5 Academies all use the same criteria to come up with an Acceptance rate. I think there are differences between how each calculates it so it makes it hard to compare between SA's. For example, I thought I have read somewhere on the USAFA forum that they only count applications that are moved to candidate status after a student fills out the preliminary app. I may be wrong if this but if it is true that removes the incomplete preliminary apps and the completely unqualified candidates from their count.
 
This is non-academy specific admissions related. Many of my medical sciences and biotechnology students express a desire to become physicians. Most of them do not know how difficult it is to be accepted to medical school. Being one of the five out of four people who have difficulty with arithmetic, I can't explain anything beyond the numbers on the below link. The link lists all US medical schools and their number of applicants and the number of matriculants. With only the number of applicants and matriculants, the acceptance rate is 2.5 percent. The bottom of the chart states there is an average of 16 applications filed per applicant. People who argue that the acceptance rate to med school is much higher use this 16 applications per applicant as their evidence.

The problem is figuring out how many of the applicants end up being seated in one of the medical schools. Surely some of them do, but surely many of the hundreds of thousands do not. Some schools have a one point something acceptance rate listed on their website and others are in the three or so percent range. Uniformed Services University, the DOD medical school; the last I looked had an acceptance rate of around six percent which is much higher than any other school.

Anyway, I think college admissions work in mysterious ways. Closer examination of the numbers at times is needed to help understand the process.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstablea1.pdf
 
DMV1962 said:
The Washington Post article is from December 2011.
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So what? They haven't changed anything about the way they calculate the acceptance rate as far as I know. Every year they say, "candidate x was one of 16,000 applicants to be appointed..." -- but that's as close to not true as a true statement gets. I understand what Devil Doc said though.
 
To my unknowing mind, I take numbers with a grain of salt. I have also read about how USNA is ranked such and such on XXX survey. #1 Public School, etc...BUT how is the survey done? What is the population surveyed? One can really almost make anything however they want it with tweaking. I don't hang my hat on any survey or any statistic. Same with rated TV shows. Political campaigns. Acceptance rates. I have a heavy dose of skepticism, as it is in the reported entities best interest to manipulate things how they want to be shed in the best light. A conditioned sense of doubt in all this stuff for me personally.

I would be surprised if anyone decided to NOT apply based upon an acceptance rate, however. And if they didn't apply because of an acceptance rate? IMO they shouldn't attend anyhow. 'Ya gotta really want it!
 
A couple thoughts - yes, USNA's way of reporting Admissions statistics is misleading, if all you do is look at the bottom end number ....which many do. The truth of how it is determined is widely available nowadays, both on this Forum and numerous other sources.

The question of whether it is "unethical" is complicated. If it was done to mislead the public and make USNA seem more "prestigious" , it would be unethical. I don't know if there is a standard method of counting applicants, and if there is , USNA deliberately doesn't follow it. The truth is, USNA Admissions is significantly different than all but two other schools .No other schools bring factors such on Nominations and Medical Qualification into the equation -- For example, is a candidate that completes his /her application but doesn't apply for or get a nomination truly an "applicant ?" How about the kid that has a nomination, but never completes his /her application , or isn't qualified medically ? There are too many variables to solve the equation.

THParent said:
Personally, I don't really care about the numbers
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^ This ... There is only one number that is absolute --100% of those that don't apply (and that means completing the application) don't get in! The rest of the numbers are illusory anyway ...they represent the totality of the country, and are rarely broken down into regions. I know that there are areas where there are more candidates in one zip code than my entire state, and while my successful candidates have the same qualifications and stats and are as qualified as those from those more "competitive" regions, there aren't as many really qualified kids getting the TWE.

Finally, I will take this one step further and say I really couldn't care less about "prestige" in the application process. I don't see a lot of candidates applying to the Ivy's from here, so I can quickly tell which kids are applying to USNA for the prestige and which are applying because they want to serve in the Navy/Marine Corps. Prestige doesn't come from the statistics of the kids applying for a school, it comes from what graduates do and accomplish when they get out ... and I will stack USNA's Alumni up against any school in the country.
 
None of this selectivity "stuff" really matters. I don't understand why it's so important except as a marketing tool. My DS received all kinds of mailings from colleges asking that he apply. Colleges (including the Ivies and the baby Ivies) troll the country to get applicants just so they can turn them down and inflate their "number of application received" - i.e. the denominator. With the Common App, how hard is it to apply to 20 or 30 colleges? It literally took my DS 2 minutes to add 5 colleges to his applications and it took about an hour to complete his entire Common App. USNA and the SAs are trying to play in this sandbox with their selection and it really makes no sense at all because SAs, above all other institutions of higher learning (with the exception of seminaries) are highly self-selecting in who applies. Chubtub Butter who has never played a sport in his/her life and can't do a push up away from the dinner table is not going to be applying to USNA but may apply to every Ivy. I wish this statistic was never flaunted.

I'm going to add one other thing, since I've climbed on this high horse - there is another self-selecting factor that in my area is very important. There is an anti-military bias among a certain section of the high-achieving populous. I'm naive. I didn't really see it until recently when I have been running into acquaintances who ask about where my son is going to school. "Really? I would never allow my son to go into the military. I didn't spend all this effort for him to be cannon fodder." That is almost a direct quote from someone I never expected it from. His son is going to a well-regarded private school. His son applied to many of the Ivies etc. but self-selected out of the SA pool for the obvious reasons. SAs don't have the same applicant pool as other institutions.
 
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2024candidate said:
Well after all he has been writing online, there's no way he will get his job back.. right?
Also this: "Records: Fired Naval Academy professor sent picture of himself in Speedo to students" -- that's pretty funny.
Click to expand...

Now to Professor Fleming --there are lots other threads about him here, some love him and some hate him.
I hate how he disparages the Naval Academy, but as an "enlightened" (or in modern day parlance "woke") soul, I recognize that dissenting views are necessary in an academic environment, and USNA does have a tendency toward "group think" and in ways, Professor Fleming's thoughts are accurates. However, I would prefer that he handle them like a mature adult and address the issues with the appropriate chain of command than running to the Washington Post.

As to the question about getting his job back ... I presume he is a federal employee, and the the federal employment system works in mysterious ways. If the issue was simply criticism of USNA, he wouldn't have been fired ...but the inappropriate pics or other actions are likely sufficient to uphold termination in this day and age.
 
STOP THE PRESSES!

A university admissions department uses statistics, in their own way, to highlight the school's selectivity.

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
 
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