Nuclear SWO

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USNA19Dad

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How competitive is getting into nuclear swo after graduation? Do you still select a ship? Thank you.
 
USNA19Dad said:
How competitive is getting into nuclear swo after graduation? Do you still select a ship? Thank you.
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As always, USNA.edu has a few of the answers, and there is always plenty of Navy career path info out there:

https://www.usna.edu/SurfaceWarfare/WhoYouWantToBe/swoN.php


https://www.navy.com/careers/nuclear-surface-warfare-officer-careers


https://www.navy.com/sites/default/files/2018-03/swo-brochure_0.pdf

https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/officer/Detailing/surfacewarfare/detailers/Pages/SWO (N).aspx

Because of the nuclear component, those who want to service select Nuke SWO need to be on a par with those going subs. That is, demonstrated performance in STEM courses. I believe they have to do the same interview with the Chief of Naval Reactors as the sub wannabees.

They go to a surface ship first to get SWO qual, then hit nuke training pipeline. A power plant is a power plant, generally, no matter what it propels.
 
USNA19Dad said:
How competitive is getting into nuclear swo after graduation? Do you still select a ship? Thank you.
Click to expand...

It depends greatly on the year and how many people want to select Nuke SWO. There is often a draft as not enough qualified midshipman put it first in their preferences most years. Since there is no gender limitations on Nuke SWO spots as there is with Subs, women are able to be drafted as well as men. There are still several baseline academic requirements, so those that are drafted tend to be from the top half of the class.
 
There's not really any draft. Ask anybody who is a high position in the nuclear community (especially if they worked in the Naval Academy administration ... because I know a few who have) and ask them if anybody has ever been forced, against their will, to be in the sub community. They'll say NO. In fact, that community prides itself on being an all-volunteer community.

Forcing a midshipman to go to a sub interview is not the same as being drafted. They may be six short from their quota and come up with a list of twenty midshipmen to interview. But they only need six.

So, what's the deal with this sub draft? Who is being "voluntold"? What is actually happening is that they are short on their quota and they twist a few arms and get them to volunteer. Now, that's not what that midshipman might tell his parents. "They forced me!" he/she may say. But that's never true. They buckled under.

It may go like this: They find a midshipman who indicates a level of ambivalence about their first choice. Red meat! Then they blow some sunshine up his/her a$$ about what a perfect fit he/she would be for the sub community. "You're exactly what we're looking for! You may not realize it, but there's over 80 years of submarine experience in this room and we can see an officer who is perfect for the community when we see one. You're who we want! You'll have a great career. Can you see yourself in the sub community?" An answer of yes, or a shrug of the shoulders - "I guess so" - is music to their ears. To their way of thinking, you just said, "My first choice and submarines are really the same thing." So, when they assign you to subs, they consider you getting your first choice. You volunteered! Not only that, you got your FIRST choice! Congratulations! The midshipman comes out of that room with his head spinning not realizing what just happened. Sucker! You just volunteered and don't even know it.

If that doesn't work, then they'll go "bad cop" on you. "Don't you think you're being a bit selfish? We have over 80 years of experience in this room and we're telling you that submarines is the best fit for you. Do you think you know more about this than we do? (asks the Navy Captain with four stripes on his sleeve - surrounded by two Commanders.) Do want to serve yourself or do you want to serve the Navy?" The midshipman eventually buckles under and agrees that serving in submarines might be something that he could see himself doing. That's volunteering! That just became his first choice! Congratulations!

The way to avoid it is to stand your ground. Weather through the "good/bad cop" routine. It's going to be uncomfortable. But what can they really do to you? Nothing! Don't be ambivalent about your first choice. Say things like this, "I would be lying to you if I told you that submarines was my first choice. It is not. I assume that the exposure the academy has afforded me to the various communities was for the purpose of providing me the opportunity to determine what I thought would be the best fit for me. I cannot see myself having a passion for serving in submarines. I respect that you think I would do well in that community. You are looking at those papers and see a midshipman who is a perfect fit. But what you can't see on those papers is what's in my heart - where my passion lies. I'm not volunteering. If you're ordering me into submarines - I'll say 'Aye! Aye! Sir!" and do my best. But I'm not volunteering. My preferences are what they are."

That midshipman will not be selected! They never order them into submarines. Those stories are myths.

The hyenas will go after a much slower-running antelope. The way to avoid the sub "draft" is simply not to be the slowest running antelope. Stand firm, even while they're pressuring you. Be the last man standing. I assure you, some other midshipmen will buckle under and they will meet their quota. The Navy will survive.
 
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Wow @Memphis9489 that was an awesome read!

Curious about the submarine community. What kind of person/personality desires to serve on a sub? If there is such a personality “type”?
 
justdoit19 said:
Wow @Memphis9489 that was an awesome read!

Curious about the submarine community. What kind of person/personality desires to serve on a sub? If there is such a personality “type”?
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My son is a submariner and has done extremely well in that world to the point that he was selected as an Olmstead Scholar (only 1 or 2 submariners per year) as well as top of his class at Nucpower school and prototype. He was hot to be a fighter pilot and had wanted it for years until Protramid when the aviators who he rode with were all talking about leaving while the submariners seemed to love what they were doing. He's the typical mid and now officer type - smart but also into video games, music, etc. Varsity athlete at USNA.
 
Memphis9489 said:
It may go like this: They find a midshipman who indicates a level of ambivalence about their first choice. Red meat! Then they blow some sunshine up his/her a$$ about what a perfect fit he/she would be for the sub community. "You're exactly what we're looking for! You may not realize it, but there's over 80 years of submarine experience in this room and we can see an officer who is perfect for the community when we see one. You're who we want! You'll have a great career. Can you see yourself in the sub community?" An answer of yes, or a shrug of the shoulders - "I guess so" - is music to their ears. To their way of thinking, you just said, "My first choice and submarines are really the same thing." So, when they assign you to subs, they consider you getting your first choice. You volunteered! Not only that, you got your FIRST choice! Congratulations! The midshipman comes out of that room with his head spinning not realizing what just happened. Sucker! You just volunteered and don't even know it.

If that doesn't work, then they'll go "bad cop" on you. "Don't you think you're being a bit selfish? We have over 80 years of experience in this room and we're telling you that submarines is the best fit for you. Do you think you know more about this than we do? (asks the Navy Captain with four stripes on his sleeve - surrounded by two Commanders.) Do want to serve yourself or do you want to serve the Navy?" The midshipman eventually buckles under and agrees that serving in submarines might be something that he could see himself doing. That's volunteering! That just became his first choice! Congratulations!
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Respectfully,

What you are describing is only volunteering in the technical sense. If you think that putting a 22 year old midshipman in a room with two 0-5s and an O-6 and using what amounts to coercion to get them to change their service selection isn't the same as forcing, then I would have to respectfully disagree. Only the most obstinate of midshipman would be able to withstand the level of shaming that sometimes goes on in a SARB. It's extremely difficult for anyone, much less an individual that has a respect for authority and patriotism that the average service academy cadet or midshipman does, to sit and take the whole "you signed up to defend your country, and your country has decided that it needs you on a submarine, and how dare you for being selfish enough to think that your opinion is more important than the needs of the Navy and your country" line repeatedly without caving. So no, even if they weren't explicitly ordered into submarines (though I still believe that this happens, I just don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence), they might as well have been.

Its these kind of tactics that only end up hurting the submarine community and their recruiting in the long run.
 
My cousin in class of 80 was voluntold to go for a nuke interview and that was back in the days of service selection by class rank. He went but managed to get out of going nuke and had a great career as an aviator but then went through Nuke Power School and Prototype en route to his CVN XO tour.
 
Remember that, unlike when many of us here were mids or even when our kids were mids, today there is "Service Assignment," not "Service Selection. Mids list up to 6 preferences for warfare specialties and the USN/USMC tells them what they get. Thus, if a mid puts Nuke SWO (or subs) as a 2nd (or 3rd) choice, the Navy doesn't have to "draft," per se -- they just give that person his 2nd or 3rd choice. Only if an insufficient number of mids select Nuke SWO as a top 3 would they have to "twist arms."

It should be noted that mids are encouraged to list preferences that are realistic (i.e., perform terribly at SEAL summer program or Leatherneck and you prob shouldn't select those communities). The process must work because last year, 95% got their first choice and all but one mid got his/her 1st or 2nd choice.

My understanding is that there is no longer a "draft" for subs, largely b/c women can now select subs. Far more women want subs than there are billets (b/c few billets), but those ~15 slots for women alleviate some of the pressure that used to exist on men, when it was male-only.

Don't know about draft for Nuke SWO -- but could see a few folks being given their 2nd choice of Nuke SWO if there are quotas to fill.
 
My DD was screened into the Nuke interview and was asked to join the process last year. After discussing it with the cadre (or whatever they call it in NROTC!) she respectfully declined and ended up with her first choice of SWO.
 
I am surprised no one has mentioned Admiral Rickover and his approach to interviewing candidates for the Nuclear Navy. I had a NROTC buddy who interviewed with him and was so traumatized that he won't speak about the specifics to this day. Based on anecdotes and scuttlebutt I heard during the late 70's and early 80's this article seems accurate: https://www.businessinsider.com/hyman-rickover-interview-techniques-2014-4

My how things have changed...
 
usna1985 said:
Remember that, unlike when many of us here were mids or even when our kids were mids, today there is "Service Assignment," not "Service Selection. Mids list up to 6 preferences for warfare specialties and the USN/USMC tells them what they get. Thus, if a mid puts Nuke SWO (or subs) as a 2nd (or 3rd) choice, the Navy doesn't have to "draft," per se -- they just give that person his 2nd or 3rd choice. Only if an insufficient number of mids select Nuke SWO as a top 3 would they have to "twist arms."

It should be noted that mids are encouraged to list preferences that are realistic (i.e., perform terribly at SEAL summer program or Leatherneck and you prob shouldn't select those communities). The process must work because last year, 95% got their first choice and all but one mid got his/her 1st or 2nd choice.

My understanding is that there is no longer a "draft" for subs, largely b/c women can now select subs. Far more women want subs than there are billets (b/c few billets), but those ~15 slots for women alleviate some of the pressure that used to exist on men, when it was male-only.

Don't know about draft for Nuke SWO -- but could see a few folks being given their 2nd choice of Nuke SWO if there are quotas to fill.
Click to expand...

The "draft"/forced volunteering is alive and well. My class (2018) was the first in recent memory to not have a draft; in fact I think across the board our class had one of the lowest rates of people not getting their first choice, with most of those conventional SWOs who were forced to go nuclear or people who didn't get SEALS/EOD. 2017, on the other hand, had a 45 person shortfall, so they had a particularly harsh draft. A midshipman in my company got drafted with submarines 6th on his career preferences. One company (11 I believe) had 9 people get reassigned into subs, and none of them originally had it as their first choice.

To your first point, It would be one thing if the Navy gave somebody subs when it was their 3rd choice or whatever and left it at that; but that's not what happens. They get SARBed, and after a discussion that goes similar to how Memphis described, they leave and their service selection is changed so that submarines is now #1 on their preferences, even if it's not truly their first preference. In this way the Navy artificially inflates the statistics on the number of midshipmen that get their first choice for service assignment.

In regards to women, there are not enough spots open to women yet to compensate for the shortfall most years. I think we had around 20 spots for women, but there were probably 10 or 15 qualified women that weren't selected.

There was however a Nuke SWO draft for my class, but they made the decision that they would only take conventional SWOs and make then nukes vice drafting from other communities. I think maybe 10 or 15 people had to get reassigned.
 
In general, submarines is not as popular of a community choice as it used to be. In my day, it was very popular. Many midshipmen were actually disappointed for not getting selected. This was back during the Cold War. There were cat & mouse games being played between the U.S. and the Soviet Union. It was real Hunt for Red October kind of stuff. It seemed exciting. It was a popular choice.

But the Cold War is over (but may be making a come back). It became the war on terror. The Soviets weren't the enemy anymore.

Those who enter the academy are mostly patriotic types who want to make a difference. When we were still hunting for Osama bin Laden, it was pretty clear he was not hiding in a submarine. It was difficult to see what role the submarine force even played in this war on terror. We could launch cruise missiles at terrorist sites from the decks of our ships. We could send in the Marines to root them out of caves. We could hail fire from the sky from our jets ... but what are the submarines doing? Do the terrorists even have a Navy? Plus - you can't Snapchat from submarine - can you?

It's lost some of its glamour. Plus - the stories of forcing midshipmen into subs because of a quota shortfall feeds into the narrative that it's not something you want to do ... because, if it was, then why can't they find enough people to do it?

What I'm getting ready to say is almost unbelievable by today's standards. I graduated in 1979. I was in 5th company. I was the only person in my entire company to go naval air. I went to flight school and became a pilot. We had no Marine Corps pilots. We didn't have a single NFO. Everybody went SWO, subs, or Marine Corps. Don't get me wrong. It's not as if many wanted to be pilots and were not selected. They didn't even want to do it because it wasn't any more popular than some of the other communities. Almost everybody got their first choice. Back then, it was called Service SELECTION. Nobody talked about quotas. There probably were quotas but it didn't seem they were enforced very stringently. Now, I do think my company was somewhat unusual in this regard. I did not have a single companymate who went into naval aviation or aviation of any type. (Note: There were 36 companies in those days - so companies had fewer people. Also, attrition was astronomically higher than today. So, a significant number of my classmates who there on I-Day were not there on graduation day - over 30% attrition brigade wide. My company's attrition was higher than the average for some reason. I may have had only 20-or-so classmates in my company by graduation time.)
 
Memphis9489 said:
There's not really any draft. Ask anybody who is a high position in the nuclear community (especially if they worked in the Naval Academy administration ... because I know a few who have) and ask them if anybody has ever been forced, against their will, to be in the sub community. They'll say NO. In fact, that community prides itself on being an all-volunteer community.

Forcing a midshipman to go to a sub interview is not the same as being drafted. They may be six short from their quota and come up with a list of twenty midshipmen to interview. But they only need six.

So, what's the deal with this sub draft? Who is being "voluntold"? What is actually happening is that they are short on their quota and they twist a few arms and get them to volunteer. Now, that's not what that midshipman might tell his parents. "They forced me!" he/she may say. But that's never true. They buckled under.

It may go like this: They find a midshipman who indicates a level of ambivalence about their first choice. Red meat! Then they blow some sunshine up his/her a$$ about what a perfect fit he/she would be for the sub community. "You're exactly what we're looking for! You may not realize it, but there's over 80 years of submarine experience in this room and we can see an officer who is perfect for the community when we see one. You're who we want! You'll have a great career. Can you see yourself in the sub community?" An answer of yes, or a shrug of the shoulders - "I guess so" - is music to their ears. To their way of thinking, you just said, "My first choice and submarines are really the same thing." So, when they assign you to subs, they consider you getting your first choice. You volunteered! Not only that, you got your FIRST choice! Congratulations! The midshipman comes out of that room with his head spinning not realizing what just happened. Sucker! You just volunteered and don't even know it.

If that doesn't work, then they'll go "bad cop" on you. "Don't you think you're being a bit selfish? We have over 80 years of experience in this room and we're telling you that submarines is the best fit for you. Do you think you know more about this than we do? (asks the Navy Captain with four stripes on his sleeve - surrounded by two Commanders.) Do want to serve yourself or do you want to serve the Navy?" The midshipman eventually buckles under and agrees that serving in submarines might be something that he could see himself doing. That's volunteering! That just became his first choice! Congratulations!

The way to avoid it is to stand your ground. Weather through the "good/bad cop" routine. It's going to be uncomfortable. But what can they really do to you? Nothing! Don't be ambivalent about your first choice. Say things like this, "I would be lying to you if I told you that submarines was my first choice. It is not. I assume that the exposure the academy has afforded me to the various communities was for the purpose of providing me the opportunity to determine what I thought would be the best fit for me. I cannot see myself having a passion for serving in submarines. I respect that you think I would do well in that community. You are looking at those papers and see a midshipman who is a perfect fit. But what you can't see on those papers is what's in my heart - where my passion lies. I'm not volunteering. If you're ordering me into submarines - I'll say 'Aye! Aye! Sir!" and do my best. But I'm not volunteering. My preferences are what they are."

That midshipman will not be selected! They never order them into submarines. Those stories are myths.

The hyenas will go after a much slower-running antelope. The way to avoid the sub "draft" is simply not to be the slowest running antelope. Stand firm, even while they're pressuring you. Be the last man standing. I assure you, some other midshipmen will buckle under and they will meet their quota. The Navy will survive.
Click to expand...
Thank you for putting down those words. I will pass them onto my son!
 
Our DS has a good friend in his major who is two years ahead of him. This person was "approached" while at college (not NROTC or USNA) and "offered a large sum of money" to contract into NROTC or enlist and go Nuke (with the accompanying commitment)! They said no as they did not want that career, and are now moving forward with college and maybe "Direct Commissioning" after graduation. Apparently college students with Naval Engineering majors who excel, catch the "eye" of someone somewhere..:) If the Navy is doing this, they have to be having a difficult time getting qualified Officers to enter the Nuke profession from within (NROTC and USNA). After reading this thread, and talking with DS, he now is worried if he contracts thru his NROTC Unit, he may be "pipelined" into Nukes?

Maybe someone here with a lot more knowledge than I can advise, IF someone gets chosen for Subs even if it is not their first or second choice, can they do a tour or two and go into another field in the Navy or are they "locked" into the Nuke Sub Officer, or Nuke SWO role for their whole career? Our DS will serve in any capacity, but eventually desires to be able to go into his major concentration field and not be restricted from any of the Navy's Career fields. Does anyone here know if being a Nuke would preclude him from becoming a conventional SWO, JAG, Program Manager, Intel Officer, or any other Career?
 
This thread is super interesting but my burning question having no military experience is - what is so unattractive about subs that there is discussion of draft or being voluntold? Just being underwater for months/weeks (no idea)?
 
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