Sad day for America today: Attack on our democratic process

There is no factual basis for dispute of the results of the election. The only basis for the claim of fraud is President Trump's repeated claims over the last year both before and after the election that the only way he could possibly lose an election would be due to it being rigged or because of fraudulent practices. Because he has repeated that claim so often and because it has been endorsed and propagated by the sycophantic Republican members of Congress who chose to endorse and strengthen his claims, a percentage of the weak-minded populace believes that the election results are questionable.

And, of course, the Republican members of Congress who are choosing to contest the results of the election use the resulting percentage of the populace who believe the claims that those same members of Congress spread as justification for their attempts to overturn the results of the election.

Talk about the ultimate in circular arguments. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so ******* sad.

Both parties have contested election results upon suspected fraud in the past. Everyone deserves to have their convictions about any tampering or fraudulent action answered. This has been a crazy election cycle because of the pandemic, and the subsequent mail in ballots. Again, I’m just trying to look at this from multiple perspectives to see how others think. But, it is not just a few people that have these doubts. They deserve the truth. I would think the same way if the positions were flipped. We all need to be civilized and do our best to relate to others.

gibby42 said:

Both parties have contested election results upon suspected fraud in the past. Everyone deserves to have their convictions about any tampering or fraudulent action answered. This has been a crazy election cycle because of the pandemic, and the subsequent mail in ballots. Again, I’m just trying to look at this from multiple perspectives to see how others think. But, it is not just a few people that have these doubts. They deserve the truth. I would think the same way if the positions were flipped. We all need to be civilized and do our best to relate to others.

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Transparency is best. I wasn’t there, I don’t support the actions.

I just thinks it’s prudent to wait for the correct information to come out. I certainly admitted I wasn’t familiar with it - I turned it off when I saw it. It will take time.

Here is a new article:

A1Janitor said:

Transparency is best. I wasn’t there, I don’t support the actions.

I just thinks it’s prudent to wait for the correct information to come out. I certainly admitted I wasn’t familiar with it - I turned it off when I saw it. It will take time.

Here is a new article:

Facial recognition identifies extremists storming the Capitol

Trump supporters say that Antifa members disguised as one of them infiltrated the protesters who stormed the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.

www.washingtontimes.com

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The Washington Times is a Conservative news source founded by Sun Myung Moon, also the founder of the "Moonies" cult. He spent 18 months in prison for tax fraud back in the 80s. He also claimed he was the second coming of Christ. Not even kidding. Look it up.

XRVision is a Singapore-based company that was bought by a European investment firm. They don't even have a functioning website yet.

The evidence they present is a tattoo they, as well as other right-wing sources, claim is Stalinist in nature. It is actually a symbol from the video game "Dishonored," about a former military officer who launches a one-man war against a corrupt government. Not exactly out of line with the protesters beliefs.

gibby42 said:

Both parties have contested election results upon suspected fraud in the past. Everyone deserves to have their convictions about any tampering or fraudulent action answered. This has been a crazy election cycle because of the pandemic, and the subsequent mail in ballots. Again, I’m just trying to look at this from multiple perspectives to see how others think. But, it is not just a few people that have these doubts. They deserve the truth. I would think the same way if the positions were flipped. We all need to be civilized and do our best to relate to others.

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I believe the current count for the Trump team's record in court this election season is 1 for 63 and the one victory had nothing to do with fraud but allowing pole watchers to move closer to the action.

So the courts have virtually unanimously rejected all of Trump's claims about fraud in this election. Rejected by courts chaired by both Democrat and Republican jurists including those specifically appointed by Trump himself.

All of the claims of fraud and malfeasance in the election have been debunked and none of them hold water. Trump's own attorneys in court have admitted that their cases have not been about fraud and that they had no evidence of widespread fraud.

All of the state results have been certified and submitted. George's results were counted three times including a handout of every single ballot. There was no measurable discrepancy found in the results.

So I stand by my statement: there is no factual evidence of fraud in the selection. There is no justification for disputing the results. All of the attempts to claim fraud have merely been a money grab by Trump in order to line his pockets and his PAC for future activities. The claims by Republican members of Congress are simply attempts to ingratiate themselves with Trump's base, which is frankly despicable.

Anyone who subscribes to Trump's claims of fraud is simply too lazy to do independent research of multiple sources of information to find out the actual data, or is unwilling to accept factual data because it conflicts with their own preset dogma.

In either case, I have no time, nor patience, for individuals of that ilk.

gibby42 said:

Both parties have contested election results upon suspected fraud in the past. Everyone deserves to have their convictions about any tampering or fraudulent action answered. This has been a crazy election cycle because of the pandemic, and the subsequent mail in ballots. Again, I’m just trying to look at this from multiple perspectives to see how others think. But, it is not just a few people that have these doubts. They deserve the truth. I would think the same way if the positions were flipped. We all need to be civilized and do our best to relate to others.

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It is not true both parties have objected for fraud. No free pass on both sides’ism.

I thought long and hard about whether to contribute on this thread. As I am posting you should be able to ascertain what decision I made.

Yesterday’s events were horrible and unacceptable. Peaceful protest is one thing but storming the Capitol Building is something completely different.

In my view the events of yesterday started many years ago and resulted in what I hope was the climax yesterday.

If there is going to be change then it needs to start with us. We need to get back to a time when we could have a discussion about political differences without resorted to hurling insults.

Republicans aren’t Racists, Democrats aren’t the loony left. In this respect our common enemy is the media and their constant desire to go to the extreme when ‘reporting’. I put ‘reporting’ in quotes as it is very rare to actual see the reporting of facts these days, we are more used to seeing opinion pieces.

I for one hold my family and friends to be the only thing that is really important to me and that is where I will spend my energies. Four years of a Democrat or Republican presidency will have little meaningful impact on my life. Certainly not enough to justify me breaking the law or losing my life.

I just hope that we can all moderate the extremes in our language and views and in our treatment of others who do not share our perspective.

People who were saying ‘Trump is not my president’ were ignored as irrelevant by myself, I will do exactly the same to those that say ‘Biden is not my president’.

gibby42 said:

First time jumping in on this thread, or political topics on the forum at all for that matter. In my opinion, on both sides, the media has become an echo chamber for the extremes on the political spectrum. Whichever way you lean, you turn on the news network that agrees with your point of view and are affirmed that your belief is the sole truth. I am guilty of this as well, but I wish we had a source without so much commentary that is so negative to the other side. Breaking into the capitol is no way to get the point across that you are unhappy. Millions of Americans are questioning the results of the election, myself included, but there are better ways to go about this rather than slandering the opposition and threatening their well-being. In terms of today’s events, neither the riot today, or the riots over the summer were peaceful. Innocent people died and businesses were destroyed over politics. We have become so divided it scares me as a teenager about to go off on my own to a country that is starting to seem foreign. Our nation is all about the freedom and ability to formulate your own opinion, while respecting and valuing the opposition. Even if we disagree, we should fight to make sure that every voice is heard on every issue. We need to take a step back and think about our values as a society and realize that we are more alike then we are different. We all want to feel safe, we all want more money in our pockets, and we all want to continue the great legacy the United States has left behind. We should be proud to be Americans in all circumstances, and that includes acknowledging that thoughts differ in different people. If we keep heading down the road we are on, nothing awaits us.

Sorry for the ramble, I just feel like we should all realize that our media is inherently biased on either side. We should try and recognize different perspectives, and that someone in the Midwest will naturally think differently than someone on the coast for example. But we are all Americans and should be proud of that fact.

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AMEN to all of this.

And you are a teenager?

This is exactly why things will be OK. I needed to read this personally today. These people are our future. Your words are wise beyond your years.

So well stated. Wow.

This is what happens when you convict police officers for performing their duties in good faith.

Instead of acting instinctively and decisively, they refuse to utilize deadly force fearing retribution.

I can't help but wonder how different this may have been handled if this building (and its occupants) were guarded by Marine Security Forces.

The Capital is not an Embassy. Civilian Police Officers have different missions than Military units. I presume that the rules of engagement are different. Weapons, tactics, and training are similar but ultimately different. "Optics" are different.

But... as a member of the MSG for 3-years, I can tell you we trained for these scenarios routinely. We educated, drilled, inspected and grilled our unit members in the rules of engagement, legal issues, and anticipated scenarios. After Action Reports were conducted and improvements made.

Physical barriers, less-than-lethal options, dogs, multi-levels of security, and strongly understood rules of engagement were all a key part of the mission plan.

I hope that this will be the last time mobs infiltrate the seat of our government. But I pray that those in-charge of security take the time to truly dissect what happened and where improvements can be made.

When each of my kids was 13, I took them to DC for a week-long bonding experience. Both had been there before, but this was a chance for them to shape the itinerary, at a point where they understood more of what they were experiencing about their country’s heritage, history and traditions. (And with a promise that I’d minimize the “when Mom and I lived here” stories.)

For DD, a highlight was when our MOC’s staffer gave us a personal tour of the Capitol — just us and beyond what tourists normally see. The topper was when we got to see the House chamber from the gallery above. It was a fantastic experience for a kid who’d only seen this august space in pictures.

For DS a few years later, we were even more fortunate. The House was out of session, so our MOC’s staffer took us — just us — onto the House floor. We stood in the “well,” where members give their speeches, directly in front of the dais where each year, the President delivers the SOTU speech, with the VP and Speaker directly behind him. It was an intimate view of what I consider hallowed ground for the world’s greatest experiment in representative government.

Both my wife and I have been in close proximity to “power” as junior staffers on Capitol Hill, at 1600, and with other typically Washingtonian organizations. But nothing matched the awe and inspiration captured in my kids’ eyes on those two occasions.

So it saddened me terribly when I saw the photo yesterday of the shameless, disgraceful hooligan who planted himself casually on the Speaker’s chair, as if it were nothing more than a shabby recliner in his living room. Those visits to DC, and those close-up experiences inside the Capitol, helped shape my kids’ desire to serve, protect and defend our country as commissioned officers. Too see it all cheapened so nonchalantly was depressing.

Someone yesterday posted here a sketch of Lady Liberty weeping into her hands. It was fitting. My kids’ grandparents survived Nazi and Soviet occupation on one side, Japanese occupation on the other side. So my kids appreciate more than others the freedoms we have. It’s a shame that others have cheapened it so.

@MidCakePa eloquent post as usual. I'm taking the side of American strength and resilience with my pic of the flag and eagle. Yesterday was a terrible day but not our most terrible day. Freedom isn't easy and surely not free. I was stationed at two headquarters commands in Washington and have been in many of those grand buildings both officially and as a tourist. The attack on the capitol was sickening to watch. Those people are criminals and not patriots exercising the 1st Amendment. My kids have lived here since 6h and 8th grade and have been all over the city which also helped influence their life decisions. We will survive though and recover. It will take some time to heal.

Thunderbolt462 said:

The Washington Times is a Conservative news source founded by Sun Myung Moon, also the founder of the "Moonies" cult. He spent 18 months in prison for tax fraud back in the 80s. He also claimed he was the second coming of Christ. Not even kidding. Look it up.

XRVision is a Singapore-based company that was bought by a European investment firm. They don't even have a functioning website yet.

The evidence they present is a tattoo they, as well as other right-wing sources, claim is Stalinist in nature. It is actually a symbol from the video game "Dishonored," about a former military officer who launches a one-man war against a corrupt government. Not exactly out of line with the protesters beliefs.

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To follow up your post, this article gives more context to the false claims about antifa involvement:

https://mashable.com/article/antifa-conspiracies-trump-mob-january-6-capitol-debunk/

unkown1961 said:

To follow up your post, this article gives more context to the false claims about antifa involvement:

https://mashable.com/article/antifa-conspiracies-trump-mob-january-6-capitol-debunk/

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We should be careful using “Mashable”.

There are other places reporting differently.

FutureAdademyDad? said:

Anyone who subscribes to Trump's claims of fraud is simply too lazy to do independent research of multiple sources of information to find out the actual data, or is unwilling to accept factual data because it conflicts with their own preset dogma.

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Correct. The fact is that Republicans were not nearly as organized and effective as Democrats. The result was largely determined in the months before the election through successful efforts to change the method of voting and organize a campaign to capitalize on it - Republicans counted on election day voting, when mail-in voting was the decisive factor. Effective yes, illegal no.

However, replacing "Trump's claims" with "Clinton's claims" or "Abrams' claims" in the sentence yields the same conclusion.

A1Janitor said:

We should be careful using “Mashable”.

There are other places reporting differently.

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+1

Yes! It is very easy to identify people sole-sourcing their news. It is also an established trend in today's media that reports in the initial days/weeks are woefully inaccurate.

A1Janitor said:

We should be careful using “Mashable”.

There are other places reporting differently.

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I'd say the same for the Washington Times, particularly with this specific article (also see Thunderbolt's post above) - and I used to subscribe to them when I lived in DC in the 80's (but they've changed from Reagan conservatism).
But compare the two articles provided: The Times 9-sentence article has an un-named retired military officer offering vague accusations with no detail vs. the article from Mashable that offers context to and detail to these claims.
As to the other places supporting antifa, I only see these claims from Newsmax, Laura Ingraham, Atty Lin Wood (we know how reliable he is, he claims Justice Roberts is a pedophile), and Sarah Palin.
But here are a couple of fact-checking sites on the antifa claims:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-mob-capitol/
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...ainted-man-horned-fur-cap-capitol-riot-suppo/

In sum, there are admitted Trump supporters who were there (including elected state representatives - one who live-streamed his storming the Capitol). And the demonstration has been being planned on Trump supportive websites. Even the woman shot was a Trump supporter. This demonstration was a group of Trump's supporters who took action after he told them - Walk down to the capitol…you’ll never take back the country with weakness.

It used to be that we had two parties who basically wanted the same thing for their constituents, but they just had different ways of getting there.
Now we have two parties in which vengeance is the only motivation for anything. I have been ashamed of many of the actions of people in this country for most of 2020 and it continues on into the new year. Call me surprised.

Who is sitting in the office of the POTUS has never made any difference in my life, other than the glorious 80's when I got all kinds of flight time. Thanks for all that JP-4, #40

THParent said:

Now we have two parties in which vengeance is the only motivation for anything.

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Vengeance may be the motivator for most of the the rioters yesterday, but vengeance isn't the motivator for a slick Yale Law School Graduate with Presidential ambitions.

Okay. I don't thinks he's slick, but he sure does.