AF decisions

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VN-Commission said:
Is the army generally safe with what's going on? As in, are they at risk of letting go 50% of cadets like what AF ROTC did?

I apologize, but I'm not very well-versed as to what's going on.
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AROTC handles personnel and accessions somewhat differently than AFROTC. They do not engage in a sifting process at the end of sophomore year like AFROTC does. IMO experience (many decades now), attrition in AROTC is solely due to things like misconduct, change of mind about wanting to commission in the Army, grades, things of that nature. What can and has happened with the Army, though, is that active duty slots can get squeezed, so seniors can (and have) end up sweating whether they get active duty or, instead, get forced into a reserve component. And that is totally based on the national OML and number of active duty slots. At the moment, I'm not aware of any such squeeze, but as with all services, needs of the Army dictate.

Finally, there has been some chatter that the number of national scholarship awards this year out of high school was down. If true -- and it seems likely that it was -- that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could simply be a reflection of the high number of applicants who didn't have SAT/ACT scores. Or it could be that they just didn't have the budget to give higher numbers. Nevertheless, often when something like this happens, those unused scholarships get returned to individual units to dispense on campus as they see fit. But I'm not sure that anybody knows at this point if that will happen this year or not.

Bottom line, I'm not aware of a significant blood-letting in AROTC like what seems to have happened this year with AFROTC; and I've never heard of mass forced disenrollment from the program.
 
shiner said:
@mtnwing sorry to learn that the changing needs of the Air Force have impacted you and your family. I can understand why anyone would be upset with a sudden change in scholarship. It is an important message to share with applicants to remind them of the fine print of their offer. Events like this are rare and are often caused by the broader economic landscape of the country. A reduction in force has happened through the years and those who were prematurely eliminated from Active Duty certainly found themselves in an unexpected predicament of needing to find a new job. For the most part, events like this have not occured in the recent past. All to often here at SAF we choose to focus on the excitement of youth who are eager to serve our country. There are potential down sides and you have shared the experience with those here at SAF. I think that was your objective.

He is a great student in a non technical major that ended up having his scholarship reduced because of a change in force planning by the Air Force, he was relieved of any commitment to the AF, and should have no problem securing other funding to continue his education at Yale or any other institution of higher learning. The Air Force did not take his completed courses away from him. They did not eliminate his potential to get an education - he was going to college regardless of his ROTC scholarship. He is a tremendous person with a bright future. The path may not be as straightforward as he originally planned, but that is the story for many visitors to this site who aspire to ROTC or a Service Academy and are not selected. There is heartache in this process. There are ups and downs. This is certainly an unfortunate event but a challenge he is certainly going to get through. It stings - we get it.

Let's move on.
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well written. Here is the funny thing. Not one person has offered to help my sons. Instead they just want to throw punches. Pages of insults. So the let's move on stings even more.
 
mtnwing said:
I was told the Army is actually adding people and is not the same. But I only have one data point. Read your "contract" carefully however as I have now learned as it's not the same as what the recruiter or the people that stand in front of 350 people at school tell you.
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But......wait. hold on a sec.

We need to sort this out. We gotta get to the bottom of this travesty.

Did he get Straight A's? This point is unclear.....
 
mtnwing said:

I can't say my son was aware either. I'm sure something he signed probably said something somewhere, but he was pretty much told that as a scholarship cadet, unless he screws something up, he will get an EA slot.
His detachment also did not make cadets aware of what their ranking in their detachment might be. He showed up for everything, volunteered for extra, had good (though not perfect) grades in a tough major (engineering). His weakness was his PFA (slow run), but still well above passing. Very high AFOQT scores. He upheld his end. He did not expect this.
So maybe the cadre is supposed to tell some of these things to the cadets - but maybe they don't do their job.


So I am not the only one?
brought up a true issue that the AF was not up front with parents and kids?
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The TRUE ISSUE is things were signed without reading OR UNDERSTANDING them.

OF COURSE all the contingencies are not stated over and over to the kids mom. That’s the other thing, this is your SONS responsibility. Not Moms. It IS there. Same as all the details are in mortgage or investment contracts that one signs. Had your son specifically ASKED the recruiter? He also would have gotten the straight answer.

Yes, it normally (Probably) doesn’t matter as much in non-cut years. But to say this is all on your recruiter is just plain NOT FAIR.
 
Bushrod said:
I'm also unclear on how many years mtnwing's brother served in the AF.
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But.....what if he got high marks for enthusiasm?

That should make all the difference.

I believe "High Enthusiasm" is the #1 factor for EA and FT slot decisions.

So......was his enthusiasm very high, high, kinda high, close to high, high-ish, our outside the realm of high????
 
mtnwing said:
Not one person has offered to help my sons.
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It may be another thread, but it has been mentioned in the last day or two on this forum that at one AFROTC unit -- and I'm sure it's not the only one -- the local AROTC PMS has been in communication with the PAS and offered to talk to affected AFROTC cadets. So your son at Yale might start there, if he hasn't already been approached.

And as to your other son, the one who wasn't selected for an HSSP scholarship, your statement is simply untrue. Many people, including me, have offered ideas.

I'd suggest knocking off the emota-posting.
 
May I mention something? You keep saying straight A's, you keep saying the best however why couldn't it affect those people? The best athletes have been cut, the best fighters have been cut, and more. What's more, there's no such thing as "best" only better. You can be number one in a race and someone beats you it just happens. Hey look for three and a half years I was told I was Corps Commander material.....interview goes amazing andddddd "You weren't picked because you have a chip on your shoulder" yep still being told I'm corps Commander material. Well, you know what I did? I focus on items I could control.

Life's not fair, it never has been. I had two parents, went down to one and back to two, is that fair? Nope, I had a perfect 100 in an AP Class but because my teacher didn't like me (I did the work, he took 20 points for "neatness" when on the rubric there were only 5 possible points) I went to a B is that fair? Nah, and there are thousands more. I could try and find them but it's not worth my time! What is worth my time is looking at what I could control and beating into the ground with every fiber of my being.

If life was fair, we would all start with the same amount of money, two parents, food on the table, and everyone would have the same chance at everything. But we don't, we don't give our enemies a "fair chance" because if we did uh we could lose. In the military, there's inside information you don't always find out till you've messed up or someone tells you because they liked you. It's human nature to not be fair! You don't give people you dislike a "fair" chance.

I read somewhere else by a current USAFA cadet "You need to get past the idea that someone "deserves" or doesn't "deserve" to be here. It's your teammate suck it up" Did he earn the scholarship, yes, was he told this could happen by word of mouth no, did he get told in a contract yes, but guess what? It happened, we got upset, now that everyone is aware of the risk let's figure out a way to move on. Let's figure out how to be better.
 
FlyFalcon said:
May I mention something? You keep saying straight A's, you keep saying the best however why couldn't it affect those people? The best athletes have been cut, the best fighters have been cut, and more. What's more, there's no such thing as "best" only better. You can be number one in a race and someone beats you it just happens. Hey look for three and a half years I was told I was Corps Commander material.....interview goes amazing andddddd "You weren't picked because you have a chip on your shoulder" yep still being told I'm corps Commander material. Well, you know what I did? I focus on items I could control.

Life's not fair, it never has been. I had two parents, went down to one and back to two, is that fair? Nope, I had a perfect 100 in an AP Class but because my teacher didn't like me (I did the work, he took 20 points for "neatness" when on the rubric there were only 5 possible points) I went to a B is that fair? Nah, and there are thousands more. I could try and find them but it's not worth my time! What is worth my time is looking at what I could control and beating into the ground with every fiber of my being.

If life was fair, we would all start with the same amount of money, two parents, food on the table, and everyone would have the same chance at everything. But we don't, we don't give our enemies a "fair chance" because if we did uh we could lose. In the military, there's inside information you don't always find out till you've messed up or someone tells you because they liked you. It's human nature to not be fair! You don't give people you dislike a "fair" chance.

I read somewhere else by a current USAFA cadet "You need to get past the idea that someone "deserves" or doesn't "deserve" to be here. It's your teammate suck it up" Did he earn the scholarship, yes, was he told this could happen by word of mouth no, did he get told in a contract yes, but guess what? It happened, we got upset, now that everyone is aware of the risk let's figure out a way to move on. Let's figure out how to be better.
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you are absolutely right. I am a fighter jet parent. sorry, but I hope some kids and parents learn from this because we were blind sided. We are not stupid but we made horrible mistakes and were very uninformed on the risks of the path we took. If we had known the AF scholarship was contingent on the wind we would have accepted a guaranteed Academic Scholarship which he also had. The AF is flat out screwing kids and no one here want's to admit that. They will write nice things like it was Force Reduction and this is not normal. But no one here will admit they are screwing kids and parents that they stood in front of a big HS graduation telling the school, "Join the Air Force -- we are going to pay for 4 years." No they don't want to admit that they did that. They say it's OK because they sent an 18 year old paper work to sign so it's JUST FINE to do this and screw young adults. IT's LEGAL. Yep it is. Is it right? NO
 
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Maybe it would make a difference, depending on the size of the audience, during the award ceremony?????

If there are 349 attendees, then the USAF can say/do whatever they want, with no recourse available to "the victims" of DoD and Congressional mandates.

I can't remember......how many people were there, that day????

This is crucial. Be sure your recollection is on-point!!!!!!!
 
I am sorry, how exactly were you blind-sided? You/your child was provided with a contract that disclosed the terms, and presumably given adequate time to read the document, fine print and all, line by line. Did you take time to read your mortgage, credit card agreements, etc. or did you blindly sign? Banks advertise on TV all the time and don't disclose each and everyone of the provisions. The consumer has the responsibility of understanding ALL the terms in the contract prior to signing. Your son is the consumer in the situation you described and the terms were clearly presented to him in the contract.
 
I am so sad that this conversation has devolved the way it has. Yes, mntwng is upset and is going a little too far. Yes, I knew there was a chance that my son would not get an EA. But do any of you know what the recruiters and detachments are telling these kids? Are any of you that are totally unsympathetic listening in on those conversations? Sure they are told that there was a very small chance ( much less than 10%) that they (scholarship cadets) might not get a slot, but really only if they screw up. Our kids did not screw up, and they got screwed anyway. Sometimes screwing people is perfectly legal and in the contract. Great. If you read the wording of the contract that is posted, it is still very nebulous. As posted :
" I understand that I must compete favorably with applicants for a POC Enrollment Allocation. Failure to do so will result in disenrollment and the consequences thereof."
I mean, how nebulous is "compete favorably"? Maybe some of you see this as 50% will not get a slot. Again, my son was told compete favorably meant everything that he did. He believed, based on what he was told, that he was doing more than "competing favorably".

The AF has a right to do what it did. That doesn't make what they did any less awful for the cadets who have put in a huge effort for the past two years. My son had to make a commitment last September. He could not just walk away from it. The AF could. These cadets have lost a lot. They were fine young adults who stuck with it and have already shown perseverance, intelligence, and leadership. Most weren't there just for the scholarship money. Many were there without any scholarship. These are the fine young adults who wanted to serve their country.

None of us parents are stupid. Some of us aren't as familiar with the military than others. We have no military background and familiarity with the military in my family. We asked the question we thought we needed to before accepting the scholarship. And my son was going off of what he was told by his detachment - that as a scholarship cadet, unless he outright screwed up, he would get an EA slot. He made decisions based on this wrong information.

Now, there are young men and women that will have to leave their college because of financial concerns. Or families are scrambling to try to figure out where the money is going to come from. This is hard on families and these very bright kids. They will recover. They will find their paths, I am sure. But some of you could learn a little sympathy for what these families (yes, it affects the whole family) are going through.

And there are cadets who lost so much so quickly, not to mention the time put in. They lost their current job, they lost their future career, the lost their main college activity/club, and they lost what amounts to their "fraternity". They are hurting. We, as the parents who love them, are hurting for them. Telling us all "IT WAS IN THE CONTRACT" is not useful, helpful or kind.
 
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@mtnwing, first, I am sorry about the frustration and disappointment. When our DD started AFROTC, we did not realize the competition level nor how her degree choice would affect her place in EA. We did not understand what a big deal getting a slot was. At her det, command stressed how competitive this year was and offered various avenues for assistance in other procuring other scholarships/military avenues(including introductions to other recruiters). There are a lot of excellent cadets right now that were placed in a character defining moment. Even though it stings, your child will need to ask for help navigating the néw landscape. The hardest part as parents is to not be able to help. But with determination and grit, I am sure your child will navigate fine as their current successes stack up higher than one EA slot. All the best to both of you
 
NYmom said:
I am so sad that this conversation has devolved the way it has. Yes, mntwng is upset and is going a little too far. Yes, I knew there was a chance that my son would not get an EA. But do any of you know what the recruiters and detachments are telling these kids? Are any of you that are totally unsympathetic listening in on those conversations? Sure they are told that there was a very small chance ( much less than 10%) that they (scholarship cadets) might not get a slot, but really only if they screw up. Our kids did not screw up, and they got screwed anyway. Sometimes screwing people is perfectly legal and in the contract. Great. If you read the wording of the contract that is posted, it is still very nebulous. As posted :
" I understand that I must compete favorably with applicants for a POC Enrollment Allocation. Failure to do so will result in disenrollment and the consequences thereof."
I mean, how nebulous is "complete favorably"? Maybe some of you see this as 50% will not get a slot. Again, my son was told compete favorably meant everything that he did. He believed, based on what he was told, that he was doing more than "competing favorably".

The AF has a right to do what it did. That doesn't make what they did any less awful for the cadets who have put in a huge effort for the past two years. My son had to make a commitment last September. He could not just walk away from it. The AF could. These cadets have lost a lot. They were fine young adults who stuck with it and have already shown perseverance, intelligence, and leadership. Most weren't there just for the scholarship money. Many were there without any scholarship. These are the fine young adults who wanted to serve their country.

None of us parents are stupid. Some of us aren't as familiar with the military than others. We have no military background and familiarity with the military in my family. We asked the question we thought we needed to before accepting the scholarship. And my son was going off of what he was told by his detachment - that as a scholarship cadet, unless he outright screwed up, he would get an EA slot. He made decisions based on this wrong information.

Now, there are young men and women that will have to leave their college because of financial concerns. Or families are scrambling to try to figure out where the money is going to come from. This is hard on families and these very bright kids. They will recover. They will find their paths, I am sure. But some of you could learn a little sympathy for what these families (yes, it affects the whole family) are going through.

And there are cadets who lost so much so quickly, not to mention the time put in. They lost their current job, they lost their future career, the lost their main college activity/club, and they lost what amounts to their "fraternity". They are hurting. We, as the parents who love them, are hurting for them. Telling us all "IT WAS IN THE CONTRACT" is not useful, helpful or kind.
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Very well said NYmom!!! I especially like that last paragraph.
 
Just a few thoughts:
  • Stop with the AF lied thing and the high school graduation rant. Do corporate recruiters tell college kids at job fairs that if you accept the job, we can pull the offer in case of budget shortfalls or things like pandemics? Of course not. Talk to people who move cross country to take a new job only to be laid off a few months later. Budget crunches are a given and recipients of an ROTC scholarship should know that selection to EA is not automatic.
  • Kids need to also realize that positions can be downsized while Active Duty as well - just like with corporate jobs.
  • At the graduation, the ROTC rep states that a scholarship was earned. Is this true? Yes. Is there fine print that the scholarship can be lost but is not highlighted in a congrats speech? Yes. All scholarships have this. Ask the kids who lost theirs due to social media posts for instance.
  • Do we have any outside confirmation of Yale cutting these people? Are the bloodbaths at certain schools? My two ROTC kids have not heard a thing like this in their detachments.
  • I'm sorry this happened, but you have a kid in Yale who can still go OTS or to another service - and he's at Yale. And you have a kid with a full ride to good college (Rutgers) who can also go OTS or do ROTC for freshman year and then apply for a scholarship. That's a pretty good Plan B.
 
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