Federalist Article by Former Cadet

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Day-Tripper said:
Just like SuperSix00 said, "When we start to believe that God Almighty shares our opinions, we will justify doing extreme things... like flying planes into towers."

The German military had belt buckles which read "Gott Mitt Uns" or "God Is With US". Once you believe you have "God on your side" (thank you, Bob Dylan) you can do anything. Push live Jewish children into Auschwitz ovens, crash hijacked planes into skyscrapers, committing ethnic cleansing, slaughtering racial or religious inferiors, taking slaves & using religion to excuse it, etc. "Rape, murder..." (Thank you, Rolling Stones).

The Germans also had the slogan "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work Makes You Free") over the gates of Auschwitz & other concentration camps.

Thus, my reference.
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I was asking how we got from Ms MacDonald's faith to Nazis and mass genocide. She doesn't strike me as an extremist.
 
Absolutism is a much more accurate predictor of abusive rule than the religious beliefs or none beliefs of leadership.

Day-Tripper said:
No but when nations use religion as a basis for government, look out. Slippery slope. Nothing good comes from it.

"...but you never ask questions, when God's on your side." Bob Dylan circa 1963. True today as it was then.
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Using that logic, when nations use anti-religion as a basis for government, look out..... The 20th century was replete with bloody regimes that slaughtered 150+ million under an anti-religion banner.

Day-Tripper said:
Burning witches is bad and a natural result of religious-based government.
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Again, using that logic: slaughtering tens of millions of innocents is bad and a natural result of anti-religious government. Tissue thin argument against religious principals as a basis for government.

Religion is a cause but not the primary cause of endemic violence against mankind in the 20th-21st centuries. Anti-religious absolutist governments continue to be the principal threat to life and liberty across the globe.

"You gotta serve somebody." Bob Dylan. True yesterday, today and tomorrow.
 
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Army Vet, DAC and USMA parent here with plenty of required vaccines in my arm. Interested to see that the debate here seems to be about individual rights. This is about readiness for the collective/the nation. DoD can't wait around, and should not, for servicemembers to catch a virus/spread the virus/recover from the virus/quarantine/treat any long term health issues. DoD cannot and should not risk incidents like an aircraft carrier sidelined at the peak of the pandemic while the virus spread among the crew - sure, nobody died, but that is not the way readiness works. I am sorry for the Cadets leaving USMA but have to say, those Cadets would have had a tough adjustment to Army life and the loss of individual rights that goes with it.
 
After starting with the Federalist article, I had one idea about what motivated the author’s WP departure. Then, as I listened to the Hannity interview, it seemed that these three former cadets had left West Point for political reasons - they couldn't square serving as Army officers with their own moral/political belief system. Maybe Hannity took them in that direction, but they seemed quite ready to go there with him.

Those that make the decision to leave a SA voluntarily are not individuals with whom I'll invest my sympathies, especially given the fact that members of the military have never really had a lot of choice when it comes to medical decisions as to vaccinations. This doesn't mean I like the way the military and/or federal government have managed the Pandemic. I’m interested in the discussion, but a cadet who can’t set aside the politics of the Covid vaccine may not be a great fit at a SA.
 
#007Boa said:
Absolutism is a much more accurate predictor of abusive rule than the religious beliefs or none beliefs of leadership.



Using that logic, when nations use anti-religion as a basis for government, look out..... The 20th century was replete with bloody regimes that slaughtered 150+ million under an anti-religion banner.



Again, using that logic: slaughtering tens of millions of innocents is bad and a natural result of anti-religious government. Tissue thin argument against religious principals as a basis for government.

Religion is a cause but not the primary cause of endemic violence against mankind in the 20th-21st centuries. Anti-religious absolutist governments continue to be the principal threat to life and liberty across the globe.

"You gotta serve somebody." Bob Dylan. True yesterday, today and tomorrow.
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I agree with a lot of what you said. But American politics is morphing individual faith/religion into absolutism.

Ex1: We think the ends justify the means. Our morals and principles used to dictate our politics. If we held a particular belief, we found candidates or ballot issues that aligned. But now our political party determines which morals and principles we even consider worthy. Based on our “sacred” party, we can now morally justify lying about election results, call dirty men “the greatest Christian leader ever”, justify violence against the innocents and even claim that God’s demand for perfection leaves me no choice but walk away from an academy. That’s not faith, that’s party.

Ex2: Our “faith” is hypocritical. We demonize our opponents for their moral failures then excuse our candidates because “everyone is a sinner.” We glorify leaders that preach angry political messages about our pet issue but have nothing to do with Scripture or faith or true religion. We hold up Bibles as props, we choose not to stand with our brothers/sisters - when doing so would unite us, we rally to form coalitions against the “moral decline of America” while at the same time we identify a specific groups’ sins as worse than our own.

But worst of all, we weaponize faith. We whip people into frenzies by claiming they are somehow being “persecuted.” Most of these people have never been out of country to witness real persecution.

Christian Nationalism is neither real faith nor real patriotism.
 
Supersix00 said:
I agree with a lot of what you said. But American politics is morphing individual faith/religion into absolutism.

Ex1: We think the ends justify the means. Our morals and principles used to dictate our politics. If we held a particular belief, we found candidates or ballot issues that aligned. But now our political party determines which morals and principles we even consider worthy. Based on our “sacred” party, we can now morally justify lying about election results, call dirty men “the greatest Christian leader ever”, justify violence against the innocents and even claim that God’s demand for perfection leaves me no choice but walk away from an academy. That’s not faith, that’s party.

Ex2: Our “faith” is hypocritical. We demonize our opponents for their moral failures then excuse our candidates because “everyone is a sinner.” We glorify leaders that preach angry political messages about our pet issue but have nothing to do with Scripture or faith or true religion. We hold up Bibles as props, we choose not to stand with our brothers/sisters - when doing so would unite us, we rally to form coalitions against the “moral decline of America” while at the same time we identify a specific groups’ sins as worse than our own.

But worst of all, we weaponize faith. We whip people into frenzies by claiming they are somehow being “persecuted.” Most of these people have never been out of country to witness real persecution.

Christian Nationalism is neither real faith nor real patriotism.
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Who is this "we" and "our" you speak of? Thats a pretty broad brush you are painting with.
 
Korab said:
Who is this "we" and "our" you speak of? Thats a pretty broad brush you are painting with.
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You think so? What if someone else painted it?

From US Grant in his Memoirs:

“The line between the Rebel and Union element in Georgetown was so marked that it led to divisions even in the churches. There were churches in that part of Ohio where treason was preached regularly, and where, to secure membership, hostility to the government, to the war and to the liberation of the slaves, was far more essential than a belief in the authenticity or credibility of the Bible.”
 
A1Janitor said:
How many cadets died from covid?
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Rhetorical question, no doubt, but a better one might be........how many cadets got sick (like my DD) and were tested for everything under the sun, except for Covid. My belief? If they didn't test them, they didn't become a negative statistic, reflective of how the Academy handled the situation. Optics and all........So, she was quarantined etc,. like she would have been IF she had Covid, but not tested. Since then, she has had a myriad of health issues, and was sent to a number of specialist by WP for some tests. Was told that her problems are a result of untreated Covid.

Let's pump the brakes on how great the Academy has done with this. There are more issues, besides simply whether to take the vax or not.
 
Goat 965 said:
Rhetorical question, no doubt, but a better one might be........how many cadets got sick (like my DD) and were tested for everything under the sun, except for Covid. My belief? If they didn't test them, they didn't become a negative statistic, reflective of how the Academy handled the situation. Optics and all........So, she was quarantined etc,. like she would have been IF she had Covid, but not tested. Since then, she has had a myriad of health issues, and was sent to a number of specialist by WP for some tests. Was told that her problems are a result of untreated Covid.

Let's pump the brakes on how great the Academy has done with this. There are more issues, besides simply whether to take the vax or not.
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Now do the countries that banned the use of moderna for people under the age of 30 because of the problems associated with the vaccine.

I do not think the SAs did a great job with this. But I don’t believe the CDC and federal and state governments have either.
 
Goat 965 said:
Rhetorical question, no doubt, but a better one might be........how many cadets got sick (like my DD) and were tested for everything under the sun, except for Covid. My belief? If they didn't test them, they didn't become a negative statistic, reflective of how the Academy handled the situation. Optics and all........So, she was quarantined etc,. like she would have been IF she had Covid, but not tested. Since then, she has had a myriad of health issues, and was sent to a number of specialist by WP for some tests. Was told that her problems are a result of untreated Covid.

Let's pump the brakes on how great the Academy has done with this. There are more issues, besides simply whether to take the vax or not.
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I don't know enough to comment about what the SA's have done or are doing. But, I have to believe they wanted to avoid something like this:

www.armytimes.com

Soldiers in Fort Bragg’s SERE course experience COVID-19 outbreak

About 82 of the 90 cases were students, with the rest being cadre.
www.armytimes.com www.armytimes.com

110 tested
82 students positive
8 cadre positive

DS was 1 of the 82

Granted, the two situations are different. If an SA is "an environment conducive to the spread of the contagion", then SERE school is a Petri Dish.

I wouldn't be too quick to ascribe deliberate malfeasance to your DD's situation. The outbreak at Bragg seemed to be the result of a combination of factors: Incompetence born of inexperience and the desire/need to keep the pipeline flowing.

In any event, I hope DD's recovery continues and would recommend she limit her discussion about her recovery to the specialists and her family. Having been there and done that early on, if I didn't see some headline about long haulers, then the first question I would get for months after was, "Are suffering after effects?" It doesn't help. Every body is different and every physical or mental stress environment is different. DD's body was/is being tested by both kinds of stress.. My full recovery was very slow. It took about a year to get back to my 60+ year old declining trendline. as measured by my participation in HIIT: rest time between intervals, weight used, # of push ups, etc.

If your/her concerns are great enough, consult specialists who are not on the WP payroll.

Again, I wish her the best and peace of mind to Mom and Dad.
 
My 20 year old nephew was down with covid for 3-4 weeks last winter and hasn't tasted anything since. It's a weird disease and we don't know how much we don't know.
 
Supersix00 said:
I agree with a lot of what you said. But American politics is morphing individual faith/religion into absolutism.

Ex1: We think the ends justify the means. Our morals and principles used to dictate our politics. If we held a particular belief, we found candidates or ballot issues that aligned. But now our political party determines which morals and principles we even consider worthy. Based on our “sacred” party, we can now morally justify lying about election results, call dirty men “the greatest Christian leader ever”, justify violence against the innocents and even claim that God’s demand for perfection leaves me no choice but walk away from an academy. That’s not faith, that’s party.

Ex2: Our “faith” is hypocritical. We demonize our opponents for their moral failures then excuse our candidates because “everyone is a sinner.” We glorify leaders that preach angry political messages about our pet issue but have nothing to do with Scripture or faith or true religion. We hold up Bibles as props, we choose not to stand with our brothers/sisters - when doing so would unite us, we rally to form coalitions against the “moral decline of America” while at the same time we identify a specific groups’ sins as worse than our own.

But worst of all, we weaponize faith. We whip people into frenzies by claiming they are somehow being “persecuted.” Most of these people have never been out of country to witness real persecution.

Christian Nationalism is neither real faith nor real patriotism.
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While i agree with you I would argue that it works both ways. The people who consider themselves secular (nonreligious) can be just as fanatical as religious people. A prime example would be those that are called the Social Justice Warriors, the Woke, the anti-racists, environmental warriors those who drive the cancel culture, those who feel morally superior to those even 10 years ago and what I consider the biggest group, those who put health and comfort as their religion Just as religious people weapon religion, the other side does it with their cause but because their goals are noble in nature, we seem to ignore their extremism. I mentioned in a post somewhere that because someone had Covid, they did have some natural immunity even though we had no idea how long it lasts or how strong it is. Someone commented that i was wrong and as to put up a cross in front of a vampire to defend themselves, put up some hashtag like #dont spread covid lies. I thought to myself that the same people who claim that science is everything seem to believe that natural immunity either doesn't exist or doesn't exist for Covid. Now I was specific in writing that while the person may have immunity, no one really knows how long it last for or good it was and that they should be vaccinated anyway. Instead, what I said was some ridiculous right-wing anti-science comment because as well all know natural immunity in science doesn't exist.
 
cb7893 said:
I don't know enough to comment about what the SA's have done or are doing. But, I have to believe they wanted to avoid something like this:

www.armytimes.com

Soldiers in Fort Bragg’s SERE course experience COVID-19 outbreak

About 82 of the 90 cases were students, with the rest being cadre.
www.armytimes.com www.armytimes.com

110 tested
82 students positive
8 cadre positive

DS was 1 of the 82

Granted, the two situations are different. If an SA is "an environment conducive to the spread of the contagion", then SERE school is a Petri Dish.

I wouldn't be too quick to ascribe deliberate malfeasance to your DD's situation. The outbreak at Bragg seemed to be the result of a combination of factors: Incompetence born of inexperience and the desire/need to keep the pipeline flowing.

In any event, I hope DD's recovery continues and would recommend she limit her discussion about her recovery to the specialists and her family. Having been there and done that early on, if I didn't see some headline about long haulers, then the first question I would get for months after was, "Are suffering after effects?" It doesn't help. Every body is different and every physical or mental stress environment is different. DD's body was/is being tested by both kinds of stress.. My full recovery was very slow. It took about a year to get back to my 60+ year old declining trendline. as measured by my participation in HIIT: rest time between intervals, weight used, # of push ups, etc.

If your/her concerns are great enough, consult specialists who are not on the WP payroll.

Again, I wish her the best and peace of mind to Mom and Dad.
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Thanks for the comments, but to me, malfeasance would be if they tested cadets, found that they were positive, but did not include them in the stats. I think this falls under "plausible deniability".........."her symptoms were indicative of a number of possible issues" etc, and "we did not feel that they rose to the bar of Covid testing".........I am calling BS on all of it. She is getting better, and hopefully nothing is long lasting enough to DQ her from commissioning. If that occurs, we will be having a totally different conversation with Uncle Sam.
 
Goat 965 said:
Thanks for the comments, but to me, malfeasance would be if they tested cadets, found that they were positive, but did not include them in the stats. I think this falls under "plausible deniability".........."her symptoms were indicative of a number of possible issues" etc, and "we did not feel that they rose to the bar of Covid testing".........I am calling BS on all of it. She is getting better, and hopefully nothing is long lasting enough to DQ her from commissioning. If that occurs, we will be having a totally different conversation with Uncle Sam.
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I get your frustration, but please vent the frustration here and not in your daughter's presence. Concentrate on keeping yourself, and especially her, positive. I know its hard. There isn't a person in all of human history who said, "But, Daaaad....." more than my little master of the universe.

My DS was the first to report symptoms. They hustled off him off for a test faster than you can say "Jack Robinson" and sent him home to quarantine. Almost all but a couple of other students quarantined in the Vietnam Era barracks. He has kept a detailed record of every medical exam since, and he has had several, not specifically related to Covid. Sounds like you are covering those bases. He got through Ranger School roughly 8 months later, which is about the most stressful and unhealthy thing a person can do to one's body. I'm not her doctor, but I'll bet she makes a full recovery.
 
Goat 965 said:
Thanks for the comments, but to me, malfeasance would be if they tested cadets, found that they were positive, but did not include them in the stats. I think this falls under "plausible deniability".........."her symptoms were indicative of a number of possible issues" etc, and "we did not feel that they rose to the bar of Covid testing".........I am calling BS on all of it. She is getting better, and hopefully nothing is long lasting enough to DQ her from commissioning. If that occurs, we will be having a totally different conversation with Uncle Sam.
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While I am not a cadet at WP, our son is, and he has related that EVERYONE was tested, and continues to get tested if any symptoms present. Again, IMHO the discussion here should be related to "is the vaccine mandate for the military legal". If it is, then most of the arguments here regarding not taking the vaccine or getting sick are just arguments and not really valid for the purposes of the original post. It is informative to learn about specific instances, but the initial post was about the vaccine and why three future Army Officers left West Point. And my only point is if we stick to that initial issue, it boils down to the legality of the mandate.

The only issue IMHO is that if one does not get vaccinated, or contracts a "Breakthrough Case" that is severe, then Commissioning Standards or Physical Standards to serve come into play. No one seems to know what if any the long term or residual effects of contracting COVID are and I think reading here and other places that it varies, but you take a chance by not getting vaccinated (even as an applicant) that those actions MAY impact your future military career. The ONLY difference is if someone happens to be Active Duty, is that IF a medical issue effects your ability to serve you sometimes can get disability compensation if you are deemed medically unfit. How and when those standards come into play for the SA's I do not know.
 
DS spoke of a cadet who overslept for his test and was swiftly dealt with.
 
Impulsive said:
While I am not a cadet at WP, our son is, and he has related that EVERYONE was tested, and continues to get tested if any symptoms present. Again, IMHO the discussion here should be related to "is the vaccine mandate for the military legal". If it is, then most of the arguments here regarding not taking the vaccine or getting sick are just arguments and not really valid for the purposes of the original post. It is informative to learn about specific instances, but the initial post was about the vaccine and why three future Army Officers left West Point. And my only point is if we stick to that initial issue, it boils down to the legality of the mandate.

The only issue IMHO is that if one does not get vaccinated, or contracts a "Breakthrough Case" that is severe, then Commissioning Standards or Physical Standards to serve come into play. No one seems to know what if any the long term or residual effects of contracting COVID are and I think reading here and other places that it varies, but you take a chance by not getting vaccinated (even as an applicant) that those actions MAY impact your future military career. The ONLY difference is if someone happens to be Active Duty, is that IF a medical issue effects your ability to serve you sometimes can get disability compensation if you are deemed medically unfit. How and when those standards come into play for the SA's I do not know.
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With all due respect, the statement that everyone was, and continues to be, tested is inaccurate.
 
Goat 965 said:
With all due respect, the statement that everyone was, and continues to be, tested is inaccurate.
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If you have more accurate information than I do, then Thank You! I can only go with our son tells us, and he told us those who show symptoms are tested as is anyone who comes back from travel or has been exposed. Is EVERYONE tested, NO, and I never said that. Rather my statement was that everyone HAD been tested and testing continues if circumstances warrant it. My statement was solely related to those who are not vaccinated and IF the vaccine mandate is a "Lawful Order". I know that during the vaccine workup (when it was first made available), those who were fully vaccinated had much more freedom and less testing than those who did not elect to get vaccinated. And the three young ladies were correct in that if you were not vaccinated you had VERY limited freedoms, no off base anything, some training was no available, AND they had mandatory COVID testing (I do know the time frame but it happened).

West Point policy changes with NY State, WP abides by Orange County NY COVID Guidelines and does indeed test individuals under certain guidelines. So I probably should not have made the all inclusive statement "EVERYONE", but rather those individuals who meet the guidelines for testing or who are not vaccinated. And again, I am trying to relate this to the OP's original post regarding vaccinations or no vaccinations and is it a legal order to force someone to get a vaccine.
 
prospective2019 said:
In her case, she left before we'd ever find out. That is what was meant by that. I will not talk about her medical conditions on the internet out of respect for her, but she never fully recovered from the virus.

The cadet that had an adverse reaction the vaccine was found to have had a pre-existing heart condition.

Again, I respect her choice. But her choice had consequences, as all do. And I don't believe attacking the Academy with Sean Hannity is necessarily the best solution to this issue.
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I respect your opinion but find it hard to believe that a Cadet passed dodmerb with a pre existing heart condition. The vaccine has had many severe reactions and many young healthy people who were vaccinated are now sick with heart disease and a range of other various ailments they did not have before they had the vaccine. Also there are studies that show that natural immunity is far superior and last longer than the vaccine, something a simple antibody test would have confirmed. Some countries have stopped giving young healthy people the vaccine because of the high rate of vaccine injures.
 
DDmom said:
I respect your opinion but find it hard to believe that a Cadet passed dodmerb with a pre existing heart condition. The vaccine has had many severe reactions and many young healthy people who were vaccinated are now sick with heart disease and a range of other various ailments they did not have before they had the vaccine. Also there are studies that show that natural immunity is far superior and last longer than the vaccine, something a simple antibody test would have confirmed. Some countries have stopped giving young healthy people the vaccine because of the high rate of vaccine injures.
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CDC just released a document that states they have no known case of someone who previously got Covid has spread the disease.

Natural immunity and the assault on therapeutics are problematic.
 
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