Federalist Article by Former Cadet

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jebdad said:
"Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS" https://www.science.org/content/art...er-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital
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The question... WHY does vaccination remain vital? Vital implies "life". The IFR on this disease is less than 0.05% for the group of people of whom we speak. Their symptoms, for the most part, are a runny nose and fatigue for about a week, maybe some loss of smell and funny taste.
 
Seven years ago I was transferred to another school. I didn't want it but it turned out for the best for lots of reasons.

They sent me over to teach Biotechnology Foundations. That scared the snot out of me. I'd heard from three science teachers that they turned down the course because they thought they were not qualified to teach it. I'm talking about men and women with hard science degrees. It was a new course and I built it to a vibrant course that high-flying kids signed up for. What got me by initially was my practical experience from years of doing basic lab tests. I was good at doing the physical/practical skills needed to do biotechnology lab stuff. I also discovered I knew more science than I had given myself credit for. I barely graduated high school but have since earned two master's degrees, but the crowning qualification was my time at the Marines' Chemical Biological Incident Response Force. A huge education experience. I had the phone numbers and was on the Rolodex of the world's top bioweapons experts including Bill Patrick and Ken Alibeck.

That education which was gained from the attendance in the premier courses in the world and practical experience in exercises and real world operations, plus life, led me to the conclusion that science is science and reality is reality. The immune system will do what it will do, and the vaccine will do what the host and organism will allow. Studies and lab results aside, nature will deal the cards and the planet in the end, will win.
 
You know what, I'm tired of all of this discussion about natural immunity versus vaccination immunity. How about we just looked at the economic cost of acquiring natural immunity versus vaccination?

42,000,000 cases x 3% hospitalization rate x $20,000 per day x 20 days stay = more than 500 billion dollars. That's roughly $12,000 per Covid case.

Now look at the cost of adverse reactions to the vaccines.

192,000,000 US people vaccinated x .0001 (vastly inflated estimate of serious adverse reactions to vaccination requiring hospitalization) x the same cost per day x the same number of days = roughly 8 billion dollars. That's roughly $42 per vaccination case.

Which scenario makes more financial sense?
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
You know what, I'm tired of all of this discussion about natural immunity versus vaccination immunity. How about we just looked at the economic cost of acquiring natural immunity versus vaccination?

42,000,000 cases x 3% hospitalization rate x $20,000 per day x 20 days stay = more than 500 billion dollars. That's roughly $12,000 per Covid case.

Now look at the cost of adverse reactions to the vaccines.

192,000,000 US people vaccinated x .0001 (vastly inflated estimate of serious adverse reactions to vaccination requiring hospitalization) x the same cost per day x the same number of days = roughly 8 billion dollars. That's roughly $42 per vaccination case.

Which scenario makes more financial sense?
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What’s the cost to the government for all these “free” vaccinations and booster #1 and 2 and 3, etc? Isn’t that an important data point in your economic analysis?
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
You know what, I'm tired of all of this discussion about natural immunity versus vaccination immunity. How about we just looked at the economic cost of acquiring natural immunity versus vaccination?

42,000,000 cases x 3% hospitalization rate x $20,000 per day x 20 days stay = more than 500 billion dollars. That's roughly $12,000 per Covid case.

Now look at the cost of adverse reactions to the vaccines.

192,000,000 US people vaccinated x .0001 (vastly inflated estimate of serious adverse reactions to vaccination requiring hospitalization) x the same cost per day x the same number of days = roughly 8 billion dollars. That's roughly $42 per vaccination case.

Which scenario makes more financial sense?
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No offense, but no one in their right mind would argue that a person should just get covid to avoid getting covid. I don't think that's the point. The whole discussion on natural immunity was just an aside to illustrate how inconsistent the approach to covid has been.
 
jebdad said:
No offense, but no one in their right mind would argue that a person should just get covid to avoid getting covid. I don't think that's the point. The whole discussion on natural immunity was just an aside to illustrate how inconsistent the approach to covid has been.
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What has been inconsistent? The approach and advice from the US Government (under both President Trump and President Biden)? The advice of the great majority of the scientific community?

The approach (not including masking, stay at home orders and social distancing) for Covid-19 has been as follows, and it has been entirely consistent:

1. Covid-19 introduced to the world. Quarantine and isolation periods are given, and updated throughout the pandemic
2. People get Covid-19. Some people get sick, some people don't get sick, some people die
3. Vaccinations are available for Covid-19. It is advised that you get vaccinated regardless of whether you had it or not prior to vaccination
4. Some people choose to get vaccinated. 1st dose (including J&J), 2nd dose, booster
5. Some people choose to not get vaccinated
6. People continue to get Covid-19. Some people get sick, some people don't get sick, some people die
7. Vaccinations continue to be available for Covid-19. It is now advised that you get vaccinated so that if you do contract Covid-19, you have a much lower chance at hospitalization and death - whether you had it or not prior to vaccination
8. Some people choose to get vaccinated. 1st dose (including J&J), 2nd dose, booster
9. Some people choose to not get vaccinated
10. People that have not been vaccinated, whether they had Covid-19 or not, can continue to get Covid-19 (just like the non-vaccinated) but still have a much higher risk of hospitalization and death

That's been pretty consistent since January of 2020
 
IMHO, the ONLY question here is "was the order to get vaccinated lawful"? If it was, then there is no getting away from it short of a waiver. Therefore, these three young ladies, no matter their reasoning violated at the very least policy, at the worst a lawful order. Sometimes there is no "GOOD" choice, but if you desire something enough you need to do whatever is necessary to obtain it. Most of the people impacted by this policy are Freshmen and Sophomores (who can administratively separate at will without ramifications) since my understanding is just about every Junior and Senior are vaccinated by now, and went through the whole COVID process at WP from staying home for a semester to wearing masks full time and having no off base privileges at all, while missing some normally available training. The junior in question got COVID and apparently as mentioned before never fully recovered (and hence fell under the Commissioning Standards Protocol). IOW, she would have not been able to Commission even had she completed the Academy, and my thoughts are that had she been a Senior may have been able to finish WP and get her diploma as others have done.

I feel for the three young ladies and the loss of their dreams, however maybe at least some of it was their choice, and as we all know choices have consequences. The World is not what it used to be, and likely may never return to that, and for that I sympathize with ANYONE who has COVID problems or vaccine issues. Four years ago we would not even be discussing this matter.
 
cb7893 said:
+1

Why do Americans rush to the Nazi allusions and metaphors so quickly? Politicians, protesters, holders of petty grievances of all political stripes do it and it shows thoughtlessness at best and dangerous ignorance at worst.

Nothing illustrates it better than former Cadet MacDonald’s citing of the Nuremberg Code as a justification for refusing the vaccine. Really!?!?!? She, or whoever is advising her, should type “Josef Mengele” into her Google Machine.

At the same time, putting her particular Christian-centric worldview on the same continuum as Auschwitz shows a similar level cluelessness.
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I will say that as my wife and I come from families of Holocaust survivors and being asked for our papers when going to a restaurant (which is now the law in Los Angeles) is very reminiscent of when the Nazis used to ask for your papers. Of course, it isn't the same, i would never use the comparison to make a social or political comment, but in reality, it does leave a nasty taste in my mouth. Now, this may be an American thing where honestly we are never asked for documentation compared to Europe where it may be more normal. The irony of course is that you now have to show paperwork to go to a restaurant in Los Angeles, but none needed to vote. (sorry, but i think its ironically funny)
 
Always remember, the missions of the academies are to graduate the right people, not accept them. Along the way some of the deadweight has to be cut.

I'm looking forward to the moment I can get by COVID booster, and when I see whiny service members commenting on not wanting to get a shot, I remember the year I got the flu vaccine three times (two shots, one nasal spray) and not because I wanted to.... and had to take malaria pills before heading to South America.

Come on snowflakes, that needle doesn't hurt THAT much.
 
I am actually surprised that her argument was that since the vaccines were actually even produced prior to the emergency order, that they arent valid either . I mean if she is going to argue that the current batches used were created during the emergency order then she should complain the original lots were created prior to approval. I assume they were produced before the emergency order because if i remember correctly, once it was approved, they shipped pretty quickly.

Just to let people who seem to think like Republicans and conservatives are crazy, I am both and a Fox viewer and i just got my 3rd shot (booster) last Friday. Most people in the US have no idea what real disease is like and think our current status (minus Covid) of being free of Smallpox and Polio and the other diseases that used to plague the world is just normal. Does anyone know someone who had polio. I do, My mother in law was born right after the WWII and went to live in Israel where she contracted Polio. She survived but not without screwing up her feet to where the muscles are deformed and have very little feeling and she walks with a limp. She was lucky to survive and the problem with the foot is a small price. Has the vaccine become political, absolutely but on both sides. One side thinks the vaccine is a miracle cure and natural immunity is made up and other other side thinks they are putting nanochips in the vaccine. Does it work 100% of the time, no it doesn't. Nothing works 100% of the time. I personally know someone got contracted Covid, got both shots, and then contracts Covid again. I guess that disproves natural immunity and the Vaccine (it doesn't) Does the Vaccine t make you feel like crap. Yes I was feeling like crap all day Saturday. Guess what I got Shingles Vaccination 3 months ago, and i was sick as a dog for two days. Actually, four days because a month later, i had to get the second Shingles vaccination.
 
A freshman dropout? And "Federalist" not only gave her "ink" but also used her WP photo as her contributor photo? Well, they got their clicks... and I learned nothing.
 
Humey said:
I am actually surprised that her argument was that since the vaccines were actually even produced prior to the emergency order, that they arent valid either . I mean if she is going to argue that the current batches used were created during the emergency order then she should complain the original lots were created prior to approval. I assume they were produced before the emergency order because if i remember correctly, once it was approved, they shipped pretty quickly.

Just to let people who seem to think like Republicans and conservatives are crazy, I am both and a Fox viewer and i just got my 3rd shot (booster) last Friday. Most people in the US have no idea what real disease is like and think our current status (minus Covid) of being free of Smallpox and Polio and the other diseases that used to plague the world is just normal. Does anyone know someone who had polio. I do, My mother in law was born right after the WWII and went to live in Israel where she contracted Polio. She survived but not without screwing up her feet to where the muscles are deformed and have very little feeling and she walks with a limp. She was lucky to survive and the problem with the foot is a small price. Has the vaccine become political, absolutely but on both sides. One side thinks the vaccine is a miracle cure and natural immunity is made up and other other side thinks they are putting nanochips in the vaccine. Does it work 100% of the time, no it doesn't. Nothing works 100% of the time. I personally know someone got contracted Covid, got both shots, and then contracts Covid again. I guess that disproves natural immunity and the Vaccine (it doesn't) Does the Vaccine t make you feel like crap. Yes I was feeling like crap all day Saturday. Guess what I got Shingles Vaccination 3 months ago, and i was sick as a dog for two days. Actually, four days because a month later, i had to get the second Shingles vaccination.
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I remember playmates who got polio when i was a kid. I remember everyone got mumps, measles, and chicken pox growing up. None of those things were fun and can be life threatening. Used to work with a guy who was deaf because he had measles as a toddler. Vaccines are a wonder.
 
Humey said:
Does anyone know someone who had polio.
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My older brother got polio after he received the polio vaccine when he was 3 years old. He walks with a slight limp and one of his legs is twice the size of the other.

My nephew, who is a cancer survivor twice, took the JnJ covid vaccine. He has been hospitalized 5 times this year with covid vaccine caused issues. He almost died 3 of those 5 times. He has never had covid. Two covid vaccinated members of his household were exposed to a covid positive person at a wedding and then they tested positive. No one else in the house tested positive or became sick including my nephew.

Same nephew takes a seizure medication. He was fine with the brand name drug prescribed for seizures. Insurance required him to switch to a generic drug. He was fine. Pharmacy switched generic brand manufacturers and his seizures were no longer controlled. All three medications had the same active ingredient and all three were considered identical to the others so theoretically there should have been no difference. Unfortunately for him there was a difference.

You just never know 100% how someone is going to respond to a drug, vaccine, or disease. As a pharmacist I am sometimes quite conflicted on how to respond sometimes. Nothing is 100% and the problem is when you are part of the exception.
 
ChatterMom2 said:
My older brother got polio after he received the polio vaccine when he was 3 years old. He walks with a slight limp and one of his legs is twice the size of the other.

My nephew, who is a cancer survivor twice, took the JnJ covid vaccine. He has been hospitalized 5 times this year with covid vaccine caused issues. He almost died 3 of those 5 times. He has never had covid. Two covid vaccinated members of his household were exposed to a covid positive person at a wedding and then they tested positive. No one else in the house tested positive or became sick including my nephew.

Same nephew takes a seizure medication. He was fine with the brand name drug prescribed for seizures. Insurance required him to switch to a generic drug. He was fine. Pharmacy switched generic brand manufacturers and his seizures were no longer controlled. All three medications had the same active ingredient and all three were considered identical to the others so theoretically there should have been no difference. Unfortunately for him there was a difference.

You just never know 100% how someone is going to respond to a drug, vaccine, or disease. As a pharmacist I am sometimes quite conflicted on how to respond sometimes. Nothing is 100% and the problem is when you are part of the exception.
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I doubt there hasnt been a vaccine or medication that hasn't killed a person. at one point or another. I think there is an old saying that "you are arent a surgeon (doctor) until you have killed your first-person" My point is that while its true that an unlucky few may be hurt by the vaccine, the majority and that means 95% or more won't and instead will be helped by it. 150 people die each year from Tylenol. Advil-type drugs have an estimated 16500 deaths every year but they think it's more like 3200, so I will go with the smaller number and there are about 3000 deaths from aspirin. So if you take the over-the-counter pain killers, that adds up to about 6350 deaths per year. That doesn't include injuries like 20,000 major bleeds from aspirin. And yet we pop them in our mouths as if they were candy.
 
Humey said:
I am actually surprised that her argument was that since the vaccines were actually even produced prior to the emergency order, that they arent valid either . I mean if she is going to argue that the current batches used were created during the emergency order then she should complain the original lots were created prior to approval. I assume they were produced before the emergency order because if i remember correctly, once it was approved, they shipped pretty quickly.
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I was thinking about this whole line of reasoning regarding the "new" and APPROVED version of the Pfizer. How many of the people raising this issue and the Nuremberg Code as the reason that they won't take the vaccine would be willing to sign an agreement to take the vax immediately, with no further objection if ad when OFFICIAL/NEW BATCH Pfizer was provided. If there is even an OUNCE of argument or waffling then to me, they are just sea-lawyering the issue and looking for any shred of argument to push their anti-COVID vax views.
 
CatDog99 said:
Please explain.
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Just like SuperSix00 said, "When we start to believe that God Almighty shares our opinions, we will justify doing extreme things... like flying planes into towers."

The German military had belt buckles which read "Gott Mitt Uns" or "God Is With US". Once you believe you have "God on your side" (thank you, Bob Dylan) you can do anything. Push live Jewish children into Auschwitz ovens, crash hijacked planes into skyscrapers, committing ethnic cleansing, slaughtering racial or religious inferiors, taking slaves & using religion to excuse it, etc. "Rape, murder..." (Thank you, Rolling Stones).

The Germans also had the slogan "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work Makes You Free") over the gates of Auschwitz & other concentration camps.

Thus, my reference.
 
Walman888 said:
I don't think we are quite to this point yet.....
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No but when nations use religion as a basis for government, look out. Slippery slope. Nothing good comes from it.

"...but you never ask questions, when God's on your side." Bob Dylan circa 1963. True today as it was then.
 
Supersix00 said:
I hear you and definitely a good reminder. To clarify, this in no way attempts to dissuade anyone's personal faith. Faith is incredible.

But mixing faith and national issues? Drawing black and white moral lines on every minor issue, making a morally "good side" and "evil side", hypocritically excusing certain standards yet criticizing opponents that commit them, escalating to levels of holy wars.... it all eventually leads to creating a hyped up, militant, nationalistic fervor based on ungrounded spiritual principles. It's dangerous and yet very clear & present today.

"If I God is on my side, I'll demonize my opponent..."
"We're fighting God's battles..."
"Because I follow a God who demands absolute truth, I cannot participate in something that has been built on a mountain of lies."

Bad news, Hannah. There is no holy side here. We all fall short of absolute truth. And if you think one side has mastered it, you'll continue to be disappointed.
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Complete agreement here.
Burning witches is bad and a natural result of religious-based government.
 
Cerberi said:
You must be living in a cave if you think these are the only military members pushing back on the vaccine and the woke agenda being pushed.

Up to 25% of the SEAL community alone was reported unvaccinated just a few weeks ago. There are numerous lawsuits filed on behalf of military members and cadets all working there way through the courts

the mainstream media may not be reporting it, but there is legitimate concern about the number of unvaccinated military members and what that means to readiness if they remain unvaccinated.

and remember for these three women in particular, there first six months at West Point, the current civilian leadership was outwardly skeptical of any vaccine created under the Trump administration and publicly stated mandates were not the proper policy.

they have never explained why they think differently now.

I am vaccinated, had classmates resign from active duty over the anthrax vaccine - they weren’t anti vaxers but they felt leadership was lying to them.

These women gave up their dreams of graduating from USMA and serving on active duty.

agree or disagree with their choice but respect their decision as they gave up a lot. They at least had the courage of their convictions while many of us would simply get vaccinated to avoid the hassle
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Having the courage of your convictions isn't always a good thing.
 
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