Being investigated for disennrollment

Cadet12345, I'm not an Academy grad nor am I a former ROTC member but rather just old school military. I notice a few things wrong here that gives me pause on the future of our military by reading this thread. My main issue is what are they teaching or rather what are the cadets taking from the lessons.

You from your posts are sounding like you feel you're a victim. Not a good quality in someone that is going to be responsible for the welfare of troops that they will be responsible for.

The military is Not a unionized organization. If you have a grievance, there is no union steward to take up your cause. It's up to you to take charge of the situation as a future leader of troops and fix problems.
Asking for help on a forum is not the place to find solutions to a problem nor even to seek advice. Facing the issues head on with those that have direct influence on the situation is. That would be the chain of command. It's called a chain for a reason. If it can't be resolved at the first link in the chain, then you take it to the next higher link.
Sometimes it doesn't work out to your satisfaction. Sometimes someone else is the problem and sometimes you are the problem.
It will not get resolved until you determine what the root cause of the issue is and correct that.
Good luck with this but with that said, it's time to become that future officer you are striving to become.
Sorry if this sounded harsh. Just my uninformed opinion based on 20+ years in the business.
 
BTCS/USN said:
My main issue is what are they teaching or rather what are the cadets taking from the lessons.
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To be honest with you, the AFROTC program (and probably most entry level military training programs now) aren’t teaching cadets much of anything useful these days. As an AD officer and recent graduate of ROTC, I can say from experience that the AFROTC is not preparing these kids to become resilient and mentally tough leaders. Higher headquarters is more worried about mollycoddling cadets to the point where you wouldn’t even be able to tell they were being trained to enter the military. And as far as using the chain of command goes, people don’t even bother with that and just cry to HQ or the IG everytime someone steps on their toes. Anyway, this is what I saw in my time in ROTC and what I have seen to a certain extent in the active duty AF. I can’t speak for the other services, but I would be willing to bet the same attitude has permeated their cultures to a certain extent as well. This is probably a little off topic from the OP’s question, and I apologize, but you brought up a good point that I felt needed to be addressed.
 
Tex232 is absolutely correct. This is pervasive in AFROTC, because of the commissioning metrics the AF needs....they set it so that every possible cadet is pumped through, and then they push cadets out when they realize they took too many.

I don't really blame the OP...a retired AF Officer I know said ROTC is the "sketchiest" path to a commission, since standards can pretty much be made up as it goes along. That's not on the cadre really, that's just on the program as a whole. It's weird, to say the least.

The biggest issue is that unlike Navy ROTC where there is a pretty high vetting of Midshipmen before entering the program, pretty much ANYONE can join AFROTC. That's how the program has been set up since its establishment.
 
Tex and Akrogan - considering the autonomy the individual detachments have, I think this would be very unit-specific. I'm sure there are squared-away units and others where it is ... less so. The culture of the college itself may have much to do with it. At my son's school, the ROTC units are respected and flattering articles are written in the local paper about their 9/11 memorial and Veteran's Day activities. On other campuses, I'm sure military members are targeted not only by fellow students but by misguided professors. (Saw it in person 40 years ago, but that was only a few years after Vietnam.)

In this case there seems to be a real disconnect between the cadet-to-cadet evaluations and the cadre assessment of the situation. I would certainly be working my way up the chain of command. I also think though, this cadet's response of reaching out on the internet for advice is reflective of civilian reality. In the civilian world these days, if you jump over your boss to speak to the next one up the ladder you'd better be prepared to be looking for work. Even if you win that battle, you will be on your boss's crap list from there on out. The cadet may have been set up to fail - but as someone pointed out, the victim mentality doesn't work in the military.
 
Akrogan said:
The biggest issue is that unlike Navy ROTC where there is a pretty high vetting of Midshipmen before entering the program, pretty much ANYONE can join AFROTC. That's how the program has been set up since its establishment.
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eljay60 said:
considering the autonomy the individual detachments have, I think this would be very unit-specific.
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You both mention good points. The commanding officer of my detachment when I first entered the ROTC program was smart enough to know that AFROTC shouldn’t be taking just anybody, and he had some unit-specific prerequisites that cadets had to meet before joining (i.e. passing the PFT among other things). Granted, this was also during the draw-down of the 2012-2013-2014 years. Later, he PCS’d and a new CO came in, and he was all about toting the “diversity” and “inclusion” line - needless to say the unit standards dropped significantly. But now, with the defense buildup that is occurring, even higher headquarters is lowering the standard (minimum GPA to contract with the AF is now 2.0 instead of 2.5). And this isn’t restricted to accessions, the regular AF has now essentially said that promotion to O-4 will now basically be a give-me rank like O-1 thru O-3. Not to mention that they liberalized the tattoo policy and are now giving waivers for prior drug use. I personally work with another officer who disclosed cocaine usage on his ROTC record and he was still allowed to commission. So the list of standards that have been changed is endless.
 
Tex232 said:
So the list of standards that have been changed is endless.
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This runs on an endless loop that circles back on itself every few years depending on the situations we are in, this is nothing new.

During the height of the Iraq/Afgan war the standards for enlistment, commissioning, and promotions make todays standards look draconian in comparison. Fast forward a few years and Army 0-3's were getting pink slips as well as cutbacks in the other services. We seemed to have cycled back again where recruitment and retention is tougher so the standard gets adjusted once again.
 
BTCS/USN said:
Cadet12345, I'm not an Academy grad nor am I a former ROTC member but rather just old school military. I notice a few things wrong here that gives me pause on the future of our military by reading this thread. My main issue is what are they teaching or rather what are the cadets taking from the lessons.

You from your posts are sounding like you feel you're a victim. Not a good quality in someone that is going to be responsible for the welfare of troops that they will be responsible for.

The military is Not a unionized organization. If you have a grievance, there is no union steward to take up your cause. It's up to you to take charge of the situation as a future leader of troops and fix problems.
Asking for help on a forum is not the place to find solutions to a problem nor even to seek advice. Facing the issues head on with those that have direct influence on the situation is. That would be the chain of command. It's called a chain for a reason. If it can't be resolved at the first link in the chain, then you take it to the next higher link.
Sometimes it doesn't work out to your satisfaction. Sometimes someone else is the problem and sometimes you are the problem.
It will not get resolved until you determine what the root cause of the issue is and correct that.
Good luck with this but with that said, it's time to become that future officer you are striving to become.
Sorry if this sounded harsh. Just my uninformed opinion based on 20+ years in the business.
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I disagree with your complaint that he is even asking for help on this forum. Isnt that kind of the point of this forum to get information. I am not saying that that one shouldnt fix their own problem but knowlege is a powerful tool especially when you are confused about the situation. He seems to have no idea why this is happening and how to proceed. Maybe this is his weakness and why they want him out. I have no idea, but instead of just bending over and taking whatever they give him, maybe he should be armed with knowlege and advice from those who may understand the sitatuion a little better. I know they dont really compare but it's like telling me I shouldnt look up what a specific car should really sell for but isntead go to the dealership and figure it ourself by negotiating. I may do well and then again I may not do well as I wasnt prepared. . I dont mean to be disrespectful, but I think he did the right thing by coming here. I have no idea if it will help, but it cant hurt.
 
Jcleppe said:
Tex232 said:
So the list of standards that have been changed is endless.
Click to expand...

This runs on an endless loop that circles back on itself every few years depending on the situations we are in, this is nothing new.

During the height of the Iraq/Afgan war the standards for enlistment, commissioning, and promotions make todays standards look draconian in comparison. Fast forward a few years and Army 0-3's were getting pink slips as well as cutbacks in the other services. We seemed to have cycled back again where recruitment and retention is tougher so the standard gets adjusted once again.
Click to expand...

I’ll agree that the standards are a bit cyclical depending on the times. However I do truly believe that this time it is different, at least when it comes to accessions. And while I do fault the military for weakening the standards, I think some of the blame is also on society in general. My generation, as a whole, has not learned the skills necessary to become productive members of society. Rather, todays young people have grown up under kid glove treatment and have been taught that it is OK to get offended everytime someone expresses an opinion different than their own. Since the military is a slice of what comes out of civilian society, leadership has wrongly decided it is better to lower the standards than force newcomers to conform to longstanding military traditions.
 
Humey said:
I disagree with your complaint that he is even asking for help on this forum. Isnt that kind of the point of this forum to get information. I am not saying that that one shouldnt fix their own problem but knowlege is a powerful tool especially when you are confused about the situation. He seems to have no idea why this is happening and how to proceed. Maybe this is his weakness and why they want him out. I have no idea, but instead of just bending over and taking whatever they give him, maybe he should be armed with knowlege and advice from those who may understand the sitatuion a little better. I know they dont really compare but it's like telling me I shouldnt look up what a specific car should really sell for but isntead go to the dealership and figure it ourself by negotiating. I may do well and then again I may not do well as I wasnt prepared. . I dont mean to be disrespectful, but I think he did the right thing by coming here. I have no idea if it will help, but it cant hurt.
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Humey, that's fair. My point though about asking for advice on a forum is that one doesn't know where the advice is coming from. A portion of people on here have been out of the system for years, some have only a passing knowledge of how the system works due to simply knowing someone that has been in it or some that are currently living the dream as it were. Unless you know the source of the information you're getting, you don't know the value to place on it. Sort of like asking a subordinate to make an informed evaluation possibly without having enough information to have a valid recommendation. This is why I started with a personal disclaimer. I may have been coming totally out of left field. What I tried to convey was what has been past proven methods and detractors. Things change and what has worked in the past may not work today. If I'm wrong, and may well be, then I hope the OP can know to disregard anything I said in my post.
 
That is absolutely true . You are right that the advice given could be completely or partially wrong. That is always the problem when do researching on any subject. I used to work on a famous home theater forum. Most people would come in not knowing anything about a particular subejct or item . As they started doing more research they started feeling more confident about it. However as they did even more research they became more confused as everyone had their own opinion and many contradicted each other



BTCS/USN said:
Humey said:
I disagree with your complaint that he is even asking for help on this forum. Isnt that kind of the point of this forum to get information. I am not saying that that one shouldnt fix their own problem but knowlege is a powerful tool especially when you are confused about the situation. He seems to have no idea why this is happening and how to proceed. Maybe this is his weakness and why they want him out. I have no idea, but instead of just bending over and taking whatever they give him, maybe he should be armed with knowlege and advice from those who may understand the sitatuion a little better. I know they dont really compare but it's like telling me I shouldnt look up what a specific car should really sell for but isntead go to the dealership and figure it ourself by negotiating. I may do well and then again I may not do well as I wasnt prepared. . I dont mean to be disrespectful, but I think he did the right thing by coming here. I have no idea if it will help, but it cant hurt.
Click to expand...
Humey, that's fair. My point though about asking for advice on a forum is that one doesn't know where the advice is coming from. A portion of people on here have been out of the system for years, some have only a passing knowledge of how the system works due to simply knowing someone that has been in it or some that are currently living the dream as it were. Unless you know the source of the information you're getting, you don't know the value to place on it. Sort of like asking a subordinate to make an informed evaluation possibly without having enough information to have a valid recommendation. This is why I started with a personal disclaimer. I may have been coming totally out of left field. What I tried to convey was what has been past proven methods and detractors. Things change and what has worked in the past may not work today. If I'm wrong, and may well be, then I hope the OP can know to disregard anything I said in my post.
Click to expand...
 
Just to clarify.... Not even the Marine Corps would would drop a cadet for not being able to drill. Believe me when I say the Marines are absolutely fanatical when it comes to snap and pop! The AF idea of drill is walking from the golf cart to the tee box. Pima makes a good point on the FB photo issue, but keep in mind one does not need to be seen drinking a beer to be cited for minor in possession.
 
I’m quite unsure where drinking came into it. There aren’t picture of me on Facebook drinking. If there are some hidden out there, I’m definitely of age.
 
sheriff3 said:
The AF idea of drill is walking from the golf cart to the tee box.
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Hey now, that is not true, give the AF some credit! Drill is the mandatory FOD walk on Monday after an airshow. PT is playing golf only using a handcart for your golf bag!

No lie, but I thought I knew all of acronyms after being married 5 yrs to Bullet....NOPE! You could have asked me what a 4 v 4 meant, Red air vs Blue, 8 turn 6 turn 2, the difference between a bomb and a missile, TDY, PCS, TLA, DLA, etc., NO PROBLEM.
We get to the 82nd, (AF Jump ALO), and Bullet kisses me goodby in the TLF at 5:30 a.m., saying he will be back by 7:30, just going off to PT. In my groggy state, eyes closed, I replied okay, I love you. 30 seconds later my brain computed what he said, and I am trying to figure out what the heck is PT and why is he doing it O'Dark thirty! Needless to say I couldn't figure it out and now was wide awake until he returned. ( This was back in the 90's before you could google).

The AF is known as the Banker or Corporate branch of the military. Loved every second of our military life, but I really had an eye opening when we were at Bragg and later on at Leavenworth (CGSC).
 
Cadet12345 said:
I’m quite unsure where drinking came into it. There aren’t picture of me on Facebook drinking. If there are some hidden out there, I’m definitely of age.
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I think you missed the point. I was not saying you were drinking underage. I was illustrating how your generation compared to my generation (your parents) see social media and email.
~ We typically don't join every group out there, or accept friends just because our best friend is a friend of that person.
~ My DH and I will write an email, step away, re-read it, ask if it is appropriate, walk away again, and than hit send. Why? Because the minute I hit send, the receiver could now copy/paste it and send it to somebody else, damning us.

Personally, I think this has more to do with your leadership ability as a POC than drilling. You are no longer a GMC. Your email may have come back to bite you. Your words:
Cadet12345 said:
I also sent an email to a few cadets which contained some sarcasm, which I understand how it could be unprofessional on my part.
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I wish you the best.
 
There is literally nothing inappropriate about the email you wrote....sure it's a tad "sarcastic", but the GMC are still college students in a commissioning program, and can definitely understand what you meant. Had you used profanity/singled them out, etc, that's a whole different ballpark.

If that is so offensive to them, then this may be the wrong career choice.

Again, I think there's a lot more to this story, because just this + drill does not equate to disenrollment, at least in my eyes. I wish you nothing but the best, and look forward to any updates.
 
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