Can an Engineering Degree Wait?

Devil Doc said:
"Engineering degree, pfftttt"
-Chuck Yeager
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Yeah. It was good that Chuck had a friend in Jack Ridley!

Tex232 said:
BTW, Architecture (marine, or otherwise) is not engineering. Architects are the dreamers, engineers make those dreams happen ;)
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I will add that;
Architects design buildings
Structural and MEP Engineers design systems to make buildings work

and

Civil Engineers design targets.
 
@tlatrice you are echoing what I said. I was answering the person saying it was not possible. It is. I totally agree with you about the OP, and that is why I included the suggestion that the undergrad degree still has to be a science degree for it to work. If bypassing an engineering degree now because it is hard, therefore bypassing a STEM major as well is the goal, then it probably isn’t a good plan.

And BTW - people like you impress me so much! My only chemistry class in my life was in high school and I barely survived! All my kids have an aptitude for math and science and it amazes me because they received no help from their parents in genetics or in guidance. When they needed help with calculus or now in organic chemistry, I am happy that my two that are still science majors are athletes and get excellent academic support and tutors provided. Because I am useless to them.
 
kinnem said:
Technology changes, yes. But human beings remain the same, and history, as a social science, is a study of the past actions of human beings. It's still relevant and even useful, especially for those at the highest levels like Mattis. There's a reason he's so well read. It's relevant... including the writings of Marcus Aurelius almost 2,000 years ago. Ask Mattis about that the next time you bump into him.

I would also add that what a degree in history teaches, which is relevant in the civilian world, is how to do research using primary and secondary sources. If you think research isn't useful I think you would be mistaken.
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Well put. Human thought and behavior, individually and in groups or societies, is more complex than almost any physical or biological system. The human capacity for reflection and abstract thought - the ability to generate ideas about life and society and the workings of the world - makes us more dynamic and complex than any other living species and harder to predict than any physical or chemical system.

If we are going to defeat the Chinese, we will absolutely positively need leaders and officers who have - in addition to their understanding of how things work - a deep grasp of history and of the sources of human thought, illusion, desire and behavior.

A good education should combine a thorough grounding in lower-division physics, chemistry, biology and advanced math with advanced study of "the best that has been thought and said" in our civilization.
 
THParent said:
Devil Doc said:
"Engineering degree, pfftttt"
-Chuck Yeager
Click to expand...

Yeah. It was good that Chuck had a friend in Jack Ridley!

Tex232 said:
BTW, Architecture (marine, or otherwise) is not engineering. Architects are the dreamers, engineers make those dreams happen ;)
Click to expand...

I will add that;
Architects design buildings
Structural and MEP Engineers design systems to make buildings work

and

Civil Engineers design targets.
Click to expand...
And combat engineers blow up those targets.
 
Chuck Yeager. Almost as well known a modern philosopher as Yogi Berra!
 
BTW, Architecture (marine, or otherwise) is not engineering. Architects are the dreamers, engineers make those dreams happen ;)[/QUOTE]

Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering is a tier 1 major for NROTC. Tier 1 majors are defined as "engineering programs of Navy interest". It combines architecture and engineering together, so you can dream it AND make the dream happen.
 
@LiftsToFly ,

The approach of my DS, AROTC Cadet commissioned in 2015 is reflected in some of the previous comments.

He was/is a math machine. He loved Chemistry in HS and started as a Chem E major, against the advice of his academic adviser. He changed his major from Chem E to Chem when he realized he hated the tedium of Engineering Courses and the lack of Academic freedom in the major. He wanted to take CS and foreign language classes. He thrived and both the CS and foreign language courses have made possible his position leading a Signal (communications) detachment for a Special Forces Battalion. I'm sure he could swing a Masters in Chem E if he so chose, but he is 7 years and a whole life from having chosen the Chem E major. You can expect similar type changes in your life, without having to give up your goal of becoming a pilot.

You might consider changing your major to Physics which will require a full complement of Math courses. Also, take an elective or two in the engineering department that would be applicable to flying...and smoke the classes.

BTW DS did a Project Go Russian program in Kiev. His running mate was an AFROTC cadet, majoring in Russian and is an AF pilot today.

Best of Luck!
 
ProudDad17 said:
BTW, Architecture (marine, or otherwise) is not engineering. Architects are the dreamers, engineers make those dreams happen ;)
Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering is a tier 1 major for NROTC. Tier 1 majors are defined as "engineering programs of Navy interest". It combines architecture and engineering together, so you can dream it AND make the dream happen.
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Many people like to call themselves engineers, few can actually claim the title truthfully. Basically if you're not eligible to earn a PE stamp, you're not an engineer. Not saying marine engineering isn't a real field, just pointing out a few cold hard facts.
 
Physics is a good alternative to Engineering.

Some schools (e.g. Michigan, Illinois, Cornell, Purdue, Rensselaer, Brown) have an "Applied Physics" or "Engineering Physics" path within the Physics major which will allow you to take some of your elective courses in the Engineering school.
 
Jmoney457 said:
AROTC-dad said:
Jmoney457 said:
There is nothing practical or worthwhile to learn there that is applicable to anybody's future career as a naval officer. Offering majors like that makes the naval academy a four year black hole of sorts, just a place to age the body for four years before a commission is granted
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I would expect that our current SECDEF, who holds a BA in history, would disagree with you.
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Shook hands with Mr. Mattis last year after my junior year, when he was commencement speaker. I recall he said after the speech that one of the positive aspects of the Merchant Marine Academy is that both majors, Engineering and Trans, have some technical aspects.

But, to digress, getting a degree in History back in those days was excusable. Today, I think we live in a different environment, and it is more clear now than it was before that studying history is a waste of time due to the use of technology just about everywhere these days.
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Interesting. I received a double major in History and Chemistry with a Pre-Med focus after 8 years enlisted service in the USN. Attended UC San Diego and accepted into several Medical Schools. The degree in history was harder than the science courses - I am not joking. We had two tests a quarter - Mid Term and Final aka Blue Book exams. What you received on those tests were your grade. Average amount of reading was about 2,100 pages a week. No favoritism, no participation points, etc. This was not a 'regurgitate' approach which under grad science was. The amount of critical thinking to this day, taught by some of the best History minds in the World including Harvard and Stanford, etc brought me to my MBA. That led to me becoming a very successful Technology business leader. I did not attend Medical School, I make more money than a general surgeon and do not have carry malpractice insurance, be on call, make rounds at 5am, eat horrible hospital food, etc.

Between the discipline and 'getting my stuff together' from the USN, learning how to critically think, analyze and make an informed decision were all lessons learned during my History studies. Now, the same can be said about Medicine and Engineering but simply put you have more of a human element in soft sciences. No one can debate what major or subject of mastery is best only you can. Let's look at this through different lenses and take into consideration students strengths, career paths, etc.
 
I still remember walking into one of my Civil War history courses. He had us divide up on who thought the Civil War was started because of slavery or states rights. Then he made us swap to the other side and write a paper on that side of the house. We repeated at the end of the semester. That singular exercise is one I remember decades later that really helped me get my critical thinking and analytical skills in shape for not only making decisions as a Marine, but my career now. It taught me to listen, think, rethink, poke holes in my theory, research and support my opinions with facts.
 
Tex232 said:
ProudDad17 said:
BTW, Architecture (marine, or otherwise) is not engineering. Architects are the dreamers, engineers make those dreams happen ;)
Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering is a tier 1 major for NROTC. Tier 1 majors are defined as "engineering programs of Navy interest". It combines architecture and engineering together, so you can dream it AND make the dream happen.
Click to expand...

Many people like to call themselves engineers, few can actually claim the title truthfully. Basically if you're not eligible to earn a PE stamp, you're not an engineer. Not saying marine engineering isn't a real field, just pointing out a few cold hard facts.
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This is blatantly wrong, I suggest you stop posting this ridiculous info. To get your PE you have to do these things:
To use the PE seal, engineers must complete several steps to ensure their competency.
  • Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program
  • Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam
  • Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE
  • Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam
The Merchant Marine Academy's Systems Engineering/Shipyard Marine Engineering degrees are accredited by the ABET. So are the degrees awarded to the NavArch and Marine Engineering majors at the Webb Institute. As long as these degrees are ABET accredited the students are free to take the exams and do their time as EIT (Engineer In Training) under a PE. These people are all eligible to pursue the PE.


 
Jmoney457 said:
Tex232 said:
ProudDad17 said:
BTW, Architecture (marine, or otherwise) is not engineering. Architects are the dreamers, engineers make those dreams happen ;)
Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering is a tier 1 major for NROTC. Tier 1 majors are defined as "engineering programs of Navy interest". It combines architecture and engineering together, so you can dream it AND make the dream happen.
Click to expand...

Many people like to call themselves engineers, few can actually claim the title truthfully. Basically if you're not eligible to earn a PE stamp, you're not an engineer. Not saying marine engineering isn't a real field, just pointing out a few cold hard facts.
Click to expand...

This is blatantly wrong, I suggest you stop posting this ridiculous info. To get your PE you have to do these things:
To use the PE seal, engineers must complete several steps to ensure their competency.
  • Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program
  • Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam
  • Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE
  • Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam
The Merchant Marine Academy's Systems Engineering/Shipyard Marine Engineering degrees are accredited by the ABET. So are the degrees awarded to the NavArch and Marine Engineering majors at the Webb Institute. As long as these degrees are ABET accredited the students are free to take the exams and do their time as EIT (Engineer In Training) under a PE. These people are all eligible to pursue the PE.
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And I suggest you read my post. I specifically pointed out that I was not stating marine engineering is not a real engineering field. However architects are not engineers, I stand by that. And believe me you don't need to lay out the requirements for a PE. I'm an EIT myself - I know full well what is required.
 
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I'm a tier 3 major MIDN, and have hopes of being selected for flight school after commissioning. While it's definitely harder without a tier 1/2 degree, it's definitely possible, as I have met multiple 2LTs and ENS who have been in my case. Harder, but possible. Weigh the risks bc at the end of the day, it's needs of Big Navy
 
You can call yourself an engineer without a PE. If you offer engineering services to the public without a PE you are probably breaking the State’s licensure law (depending on the state). If you have “engineer” on a business card or correspondence and you are not a PE you are probably breaking the law. It typically does not get enforced unless someone complains to the state’s engineering board. Then an enforcement action takes place and you are given a cease and desist order and a fine. I know this to be the case - I am involved in such a board.

My dad was a combat- wounded combat engineer in WWII. After the war, he became a heavy machinery construction worker and a member of the “operating engineers” union. On both counts, the use of the term “engineer” is entirely appropriate. If he offered his services as an engineer in a design capacity, it would have been unlawful.

The term “engineer” depends on context. And BTW, everything I just wrote has almost no application to government employees (including military).

And if you graduate from an ABET accredited program, you have met one of the registration requirements. The academy engineering programs meet this requirement.
 
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