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Possibly, sure. Was he going to class and getting credits? Was he paid over that time? Given free food and board. Sure, I think he was riding it out.
AFA Informant Program
- Thread starter DHinNH
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Possibly, sure. Was he going to class and getting credits? Was he paid over that time? Given free food and board. Sure, I think he was riding it out.
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You asked and answered your own question, and I think you are correct.
Sorry, but I can't wrap my cranium around your comment aseanag
If I am correct your DS is going UPT. This is a life and death career even during training. Actually, from a statistical perspective there is a higher rate of mortality during training than war time...sorry!
You are saying your child would not snitch when they showed up for a briefing at 6 a.m., and saw their peer at AppleBees drinking a beer the night before at 11 p.m.? You do know there is a 12 hr rule?
Should they be an out cast like you are inferring because he said I won't risk my life? wouldn't that qualify as a snitch? Do you want him to risk his life by remaining silent?
We are not talking about dirty purples, we are talking drugs, rape, etc.
Did the AF screw them over as a snitch? Yes, IMPO. However, I don't agree with your opinion about the AF and snitches. Their lives rely on following the code.
Like I have said, I think they got the short end of the stick, but as others have said there is more to this story.
My final opinion is this:
~~~ They were in the wrong place. They were not an angel to start with. They broke the code in the 1st place.
How is it we have lost site of this aspect in the 1st place? Had he not been at the party, he would not have been in the news.
He chose to attend. He had free will.
I support him if his facts are fact, but I see the AF side too. He knew it was not where he should have been when he entered through that door. The door that forced him to become a snitch.
~ If only he stayed home that night!
DS lived the honor code at USAFA. The big difference is sneaking around and putting on fronts to entrap people. Yes if you see a misdeed then they are honor bound to report it. What this cadet did is not the same.
IMPO he should have been disenrolled at the onset of his problems, not after a year and a half of behind the scene spying and being used by OSI.
Yes he served a purpose, that was his point in the article. He was used by OSI, given assurance, and left out to dry.
Pima
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aseanag said:
He broke the rules.
My point is he would have never been in this situation had he not broken the rules.
Which comes 1st the chicken or the egg?
He is not an innocent, He signed that honor code doc like everyone else. Did they leverage him? Probably.
Would they have the opportunity to "flip" him had he not crossed the line? Probably not!
I am just someone saying the woah is me goes only so far. The AF may have screwed him, we need to see their side too. However, he screwed himself when he went through the door where they nailed him.
The he is 17-19 doesn't work with me. There are many 18 yo enlisted kicked out with dishonorable for drugs too. They don't have a college to keep them safe until they are 22. Their arse is on the line as soon as their unit is called up.
falconfamily
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Deflection
So they release a statement that is damning to Thomas, now the discussion has shifted to the type of person that Thomas was, rather than the merits of the program and how it was administered. My concern is not so much with who Thomas was, it is how this program reflects on the culture of the Air Force Academy and it's leaders. This press release explains little and presents nothing more than a distraction from discussion the merits of using such a program on what is essentially a college campus with a culture that differs from the active duty Air Force in profound ways and how the use of such informants might undermine the culture of honor, trust, and leadership that the academy tries to instill.
So they release a statement that is damning to Thomas, now the discussion has shifted to the type of person that Thomas was, rather than the merits of the program and how it was administered. My concern is not so much with who Thomas was, it is how this program reflects on the culture of the Air Force Academy and it's leaders. This press release explains little and presents nothing more than a distraction from discussion the merits of using such a program on what is essentially a college campus with a culture that differs from the active duty Air Force in profound ways and how the use of such informants might undermine the culture of honor, trust, and leadership that the academy tries to instill.
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Now you're figuring out the military. Any member who doesn't "serve a purpose" is wasting space, and soon finds the door.
I think he got his carrot, and once out, like many who are kicked out, had to play the victim. "They just didn't like me." "I was too honorable." "I wouldn't go along with their games."
No.... the truth is, apparently he was a poor cadet with poor values. He served a purpose, and it wasn't to become an officer and once that had run its course, he got the "immunity" to not pay $200K or go to jail.
Remember, I don't agree with the program, but that's not because I think Thomas is any kind of victim here.
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Well, in fairness, I don't think the Air Force is going to have a release to start a discussion on the merits of the program. In the release they said it is effective, not only at AFA but the entire USAF. That doesn't mean I like it. It only means the release was to challenge misinformation from articles.
falconfamily
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Exactly LITS we really don't disagree here. But the elephant in the room is the informant program itself, Thomas is just one facet of what happened. Informants are not angels, there is a reason they are in a position to provide intel and why you can manipulate them. To focus our attention on Thomas's transgressions tells me that the academy know this is a growing problem for them as this story gains traction.
In focusing on the program, one has to ask why - if the program is so effective - why shut it down? There is a statement attributed to leadership that there are currently no informants in the Cadet Wing. OK - this is a valuable and much needed program - yet it appears that it is shut down for some reason. Have Sexual Assaults suddenly ended at the military academies? Has drug use ceased at the base? Every organization that runs such a questionable program will defend it as being necessary. Yet there are no current informants? Not sure what to make of this explanation.
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Yes and I don't care.
I have seen no proof of his drug use. Probably yes, but nothing conclusive. But what I do know is he was disenrolled 6 weeks before graduation, he was involved in multiple bust at USAFA, and he has come forward with accusation of mistreatment by AFA and OSI. AFA has come forward with a charge of a rotten cadet that was in trouble years ago and we disenrolled him 6 weeks prior to his graduation.
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Generally speaking ... I think people in general are preyed on to some extent by LE because they know that people are by and large afraid of them. It's not a shock that this happens within a service also, and I would actually be surprised if CID and NCIS don't do the same thing. In truth, you don't even need to "turn" someone. Recruiting someone woulld probably not be all that difficult by simply appealing to their sense of service.
I'm still stuck on the Academy keeping him around when according to their own statement he should have been booted two years earlier ... Why ?!?!? Did they really know about the informants? Their own statement said they were briefed by OSI prior to his disenrollment but that his conduct prior to working with OSI was enough to get him disenrolled ... then why would you keep him around for two more years unless you knew what he was doing?
I'm still stuck on the Academy keeping him around when according to their own statement he should have been booted two years earlier ... Why ?!?!? Did they really know about the informants? Their own statement said they were briefed by OSI prior to his disenrollment but that his conduct prior to working with OSI was enough to get him disenrolled ... then why would you keep him around for two more years unless you knew what he was doing?
falconfamily
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Absolutely. I agree +1000!
Also to be considered is that these young people are trained to follow orders. So even if Mr. Thomas did absolutely nothing wrong but (say) OSI learned that he was friends with someone they were looking at, he could be hauled into that small room with people who out rank him sitting across the table and be told (ordered) to become an informant. He would not be likely to question the legality of the request. Nor, how it fit into the honor system. He'd feel that refusal was not an option - and the OSI agents would not tell him it was.
What I'm saying is that it's not only dirt-bag cadets that get used, it's (in all probability) normal everyday cadets who think they have no choice but to go along.
Is that consistent with what they're trying to build?
What I'm saying is that it's not only dirt-bag cadets that get used, it's (in all probability) normal everyday cadets who think they have no choice but to go along.
Is that consistent with what they're trying to build?
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I would suggest that it is the normal everyday cadets who are the targets to become CIs. "One strike and your ours" if you will.
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Haha, I don't disagree. I think the program is horrible. The foundation of my statement is, Thomas is not a victim. He could have had it much worse. I'm not arguing he shouldn't have had it worse.
None of us know if Thomas is or isn't a victim! He could have had it much worse(payback) and he could have had it much better(commissioning). Only time, the pending South Dakota Senator invesitgation and future legal court proceedings will clear the air.
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Um..... we have his demerit total, which was greater than the amount needed to be disenrolled. He's not the victim. He may have been used, but he's not a victim.
What should REALLY interest us is, was Thomas overstepping his authority and entrapped folks.
Based on the trend in this thread where the discussion has shifted from primarily the program to primarily Thomas, it appears that the AFA tactic is working as intended.