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marine

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Currently, I have letters of assurance to all the service academies, except the Coast Guard (didn't apply). I want to go to the Naval Academy. With that being said, I just received a nomination to the Naval Academy from my congressman. My dilemma is this: I have interviews scheduled in the near future as part of my senators' nomination process. Should I call and cancel these interviews and inform my senators that I no longer wish to seek a nomination from them since I already have the nomination to the Naval Academy and have completed all the Naval Academy's other requirements? It seems to me that this would be the best approach. That way, if I receive more nominations, they do not go to waste. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.
 

USNA69

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Seek a nomination from all possible sources. Continue with the Senatorial nomination process. It will give the Academy flexability in maximizing filling the class.
 

Just_A_Mom

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marine said:
Should I call and cancel these interviews and inform my senators that I no longer wish to seek a nomination from them since I already have the nomination to the Naval Academy and have completed all the Naval Academy's other requirements? It seems to me that this would be the best approach. That way, if I receive more nominations, they do not go to waste. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.
Congratulations on your LOA's! Nicely done.

You should most definitely continue to pursue nominations. Even if you get more that one then the admissions office will only use one for you and free up the other one(s) for other worthy candidates. You other nominations will not go to waste.
Look at it this way:
If you get a nomination from a Senator - seems possible since you are obvioulsly a strong candidate - then the admissions office can use your Congressional nomination for another candidate from your district.

It is a huge chess game and the way nominations are maximized to fill the class with the best possible candidates.
 

FatherOfFive

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This is none of my business but if I understand you correctly the advice you are giving him is to continue to seek nomiations that he will not use - even though he will see no personal benefit because the individual service academies will benefit?

In short you want him to dress up, go to more interview(s) to get additional nomination(s) that he will not use so the Academy can use this unused nomimation on someone from the same district who wasn't nominated that the Academy has taken a shine to but for some reason wasn't nominated?

I'm not an expert, but based on the above posts, if you were in my son's State/district I would say congratulations you have obviously worked hard to get where you are, but please do me a favor and stay home.

-FoF
 
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USNA69

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JAM is totally correct. Here is an example:

Candidate "A" receives a primary nomination from MOC "X".
Candidate "B" recieves a first alternate nomination from MOC "X"
Candidate "A" receives a primary nomination from MOC "Y".
Candidate "C" receives a first alternate nomination from MOC "Y"
Candidate "B" who is head and shoulders above Candidate "C" will be selected by the Admissions Dept and recieve a nomination as first alternate. So both Candidate "A" and Candidate "B" will attend the academy.

Same scenario but Candidate "A" chooses not to attend his second interview.
Candidate "C" will receive the primary nomination from MOC "Y" and Candidate "A" and Candidate "C" will attend the academy. The more qualified Candidate "B" has been left out of the process.

I would suggest that if you are the parent of Candidate "B" that you help Candidate "A" get dressed up and drive him to his interview with MOC "Y".

General Rule is to apply for and receive as many nominations as possible. This will ensure the Admissions Dept is able to select the best candidates, not the ones they have taken a "shine" to, from each state.

I guess if one only cares about themselves, a single nomination is sufficient. But if they want to get a head start on the teamwork that will be instilled in them as midshipmen, they can help by ensuring that the most qualified candidates receive nominations.
 
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Stealth_81

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FoF,

Each congressperson can nominate up to 10 candidates for each slot available, so if a candidate is nominated by more than one source, he still will only get one appointment, and the unused slot will move on to one of the remaining 9 nominees. No one is really bumped out of the nomination process, except for the lowest ranked candidate who would be # 11 in line anyway. This is how it was explained to me by Senator Kohl's staff. Our son is continuing to interview for all possible sources, which is what he was instructed to do.

Stealth_81
 

USNA69

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Stealth_81 said:
FoF,

Each congressperson can nominate up to 10 candidates for each slot available, so if a candidate is nominated by more than one source, he still will only get one appointment, and the unused slot will move on to one of the remaining 9 nominees. No one is really bumped out of the nomination process, except for the lowest ranked candidate who would be # 11 in line anyway. This is how it was explained to me by Senator Kohl's staff. Our son is continuing to interview for all possible sources, which is what he was instructed to do.

Stealth_81
There are three ways MOCs can nominate:
COMPETITIVE-The MOC simply presents 10 nominations and the Admissions Dept. chooses the most qualified.
PRINCIPAL WITH NUMBERED ALTERNATE-The Admissions Dept is forced to accept the principal, if qualified. If not, they must continue down the ranked list and choose the first qualified candidate.
PRINCIPAL WITH COMPETITIVE ALTERNATE-The Admissions Dept is forced to accept the principal, if qualified. If not, the Admissions Dept can choose any of the alternates as it sees fit.

Given that most MOCs are Type "A" personalities who want to be in charge and in control, guess which method is most used. My example above applies specifically to the PRINCIPAL WITH NUMBERED ALTERNATE method.
 

Just_A_Mom

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FatherOfFive said:
This is none of my business but if I understand you correctly the advice you are giving him is to continue to seek nomiations that he will not use - even though he will see no personal benefit because the individual service academies will benefit?

In short you want him to dress up, go to more interview(s) to get additional nomination(s) that he will not use so the Academy can use this unused nomimation on someone from the same district who wasn't nominated that the Academy has taken a shine to but for some reason wasn't nominated?

I'm not an expert, but based on the above posts, if you were in my son's State/district I would say congratulations you have obviously worked hard to get where you are, but please do me a favor and stay home.

-FoF
After I made my post I actually thought of your argument. Every instruction my daughter has received from USNA and USMA asks them to seek every nomination possible. So he would be following instructions. Likewise, all of my daughter's nomination applications asked if she is seeking nominations from other sources and what those sources are.
I don't believe that by staying home he hurts anyone, but could be helping a kid from his own congressional district.

This scenario would never happen in our district because our Senator's committees interview within one week - this coming Saturday and during the week next week. Our congressman's committee interviews the following Saturday.
Announcements are made by the Senators in Dec and by our Congressman in January. Our kids are not put in the position that Marine is in.
I even wonder if our congressman makes his announcement so late because he wants to see who he senators nominate. If a kid in his district has an LOA and gets a nom from a senator then he could nominate someone else. I do know that his nominations manager said his office does everything possible to maximize nominations. He also uses the competitive process.
 

Whistle Pig

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69 ... thanks for the clear explanation of a confusing issue. And I suspect you're correct on the method, altho many others have suggested that the 1st MO, i.e. "competitive" is what most use. I can tell you, not ours.
 

USNA69

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Whistle Pig said:
69 ... thanks for the clear explanation of a confusing issue. And I suspect you're correct on the method, altho many others have suggested that the 1st MO, i.e. "competitive" is what most use. I can tell you, not ours.
Several years ago, the majority did use the competitive method but, my understanding is that the pendulum has shifted. You are correct in that it is a confusing issue, even with the congressional offices, and I have seen instances where the majority of the staff was not aware of exactly how their MOC selected, only that single individual who was in charge of the process.

With numbered alternates, the most qualified candidate can most definitely be left out of the process so my advice remains, follow up on all nominations to the maximum extent possible.
 

FatherOfFive

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USNA69 said:
My example above applies specifically to the PRINCIPAL WITH NUMBERED ALTERNATE method.
In that case, I can see your logic. My son's MOC's do not use this method, they claim to use the the competitive method. Under the competitive method you would be advocating robbing Peter(#11) to pay Paul (#12 or higher). And this is what I was objecting to. My thinking was if there was someone out there who was so good the Academy wanted them yet they were not able to convince a member of congress to give them a nomination then some hanky panky is going on for the Academy to want them. To those candidates there is always next year.

In my opinion, any MOC who uses the "Principal with numbered Alternate method" is doing the nominees no favor.
 

Just_A_Mom

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Think about this: If Marine's Senator uses the competitive method then all 10 slots go to the academy for the pick. He has an LOA so he is good but what if one or more of the 10 have LOA's?? The academy can only pick one of those for the nomination and if he is not picked then he goes into the national pool.
He should cover his bases and go to his interview and try for a primary or to be the #1 pick in his congressional district.
 

2011's Mom

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I thought the LOA worked a little different. It sounds like Just A Mom is saying that even with a nomination the LOA recipient may not get to go if there is another LOA in that MOC district. I thought the LOA doesn't count against the MOC 1 open slot. They still nominate 10 (of which the LOA recipient must be one of them) but the LOA gets to go in without being charged as the one slot of that MOC. In our area our MOC told us that last year he was able to send 6 (or maybe 7) to USNA even though he had only one slot because there were several LOA's in our district.

Am I totally confused? My daughter has an LOA and MOC has verbally said she will get nomination but they can't make it official until after interviews in December. It sounds like Just a Mom says even with an LOA and a nomination my daughter could be out of luck. Incidentally, she already passed DoDMRB.
 

USNA69

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Well, since I contributed to the beginning of this, I guess I owe it a conclusion.

First off:
FatherOfFive. Under the competitive method you would be advocating robbing Peter(#11) to pay Paul (#12 or higher). And this is what I was objecting to In my opinion said:
FoF, I think you have a slight misconception of the process. Should marine choose not to go through the second selection process, he will simply ensure that one other candidate will receive a Senatorial nomination. Since the Senatorial process is much more competitive, this candidate will probably receive a congressional nomination regardless. Therefore, whether or not marine continues with the nomination process may only affect, at the most, one other candidate.

Candidates with LOAs are still responsible to complete the MOC nomination process.

Each MOC may, by law, nominate 10 candidates for each opening which he has at the Academy. He may, by law, choose any one of the three methods which I outlined above. For simplicity, let’s just look at one opening. marine gets a congressional nomination from his first interview. We are not sure what type of nomination this is since he never told us. It could be a primary nomination or he could be the ninth alternate, though, with a LOA, probably not. With that said, the MOC is not necessarily privy to the fact that marine has a LOA. Again, let’s assume that the Congressman only has one opening and either (1) he selected another candidate as primary or (2) he allowed the Admissions Dept to do a competitive selection and they selected another candidate. In either case, marine, as stated below by JAM, enters the national pool and competes with everyone in the nation who has qualified but did not receive their MOC’s nomination. LOAs are not a factor. The Academy selects utilizing whole person points, commencing with the highest and working their way down until the class is filled. It is highly unlikely that someone with an LOA will be turned away but it is possible through a variety of reasons.


Just_A_Mom said:
Think about this: If Marine's Senator uses the competitive method then all 10 slots go to the academy for the pick. He has an LOA so he is good but what if one or more of the 10 have LOA's?? The academy can only pick one of those for the nomination and if he is not picked then he goes into the national pool.
He should cover his bases and go to his interview and try for a primary or to be the #1 pick in his congressional district.
Absolutely. JAM is entirely correct. All candidates should cover all their bases.


Candidate for 2011's mom said:
I thought the LOA worked a little different. It sounds like Just A Mom is saying that even with a nomination the LOA recipient may not get to go if there is another LOA in that MOC district. I thought the LOA doesn't count against the MOC 1 open slot. They still nominate 10 (of which the LOA recipient must be one of them) but the LOA gets to go in without being charged as the one slot of that MOC. In our area our MOC told us that last year he was able to send 6 (or maybe 7) to USNA even though he had only one slot because there were several LOA's in our district.

Am I totally confused? My daughter has an LOA and MOC has verbally said she will get nomination but they can't make it official until after interviews in December. It sounds like Just a Mom says even with an LOA and a nomination my daughter could be out of luck. Incidentally, she already passed DoDMRB.
The LOA candidate, if he or she is nominated against a MOCs available openings will count against that MOC. Your district had competitive candidates and they were selected, as per JAM, through the national pool by the Admissions Dept. so your MOC did not actually “send” them himself. Perhaps he is boasting a little too much.

In summary, usually the LOA guarantees a slot, either through the MOC actual nomination or through the national pool. However, applications are up this year, there is a rumor of USMA starting a LOA “war”, and a LOA does require a MOC primary nomination. Low mid-year grades could lower the total whole person points. Once the candidate enters the national pool without a primary MOC nomination, selection is based entirely on the whole person concept. Therefore, a LOA with a primary nomination is the only guarantee. Cover all bases. Get as many and as high a nomination as possible.

I hope this hasn’t continued to be too confusing.
 
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2011's Mom

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Sorry, still confused! Daughters LOA is pretty clear ... "the Academy Board has approved you for admission .... you are virtually assured of an appointment upon receipt of a nomination . . ." Since the LOA doesn't say primary nomination, it sure sounds like any nomination will suffice. When she talked to her Academy Admissions person last week she was told the only thing remaining is her nomination - and they never said it must be a primary nomination. It was very clear verbally that as soon as the receive her nomination that she'll get an appointment.

USNA69 - you clearly say that an LOA requires a primary nomination to be a sure thing yet that sounds contradictory to what MOC and admissions seemed to imply. Our MOC made it clear there will be no primary nomination to anyone. He is only sending up a list of 10 names and the Academy can do with it what they want. MOC staffer tells us that her LOA combined with his nomination (not primary) guarantees her a spot and also the district gets another spot too.

This can all be very confusing and I appreciate everyones help in untangling the confusion. If what USNA69 is saying is true, they my dd needs to keep pushing for a senator nomination as well as congressional and VP etc....
 

USNA69

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2011's mom,
The nomination which the LOA, MOC, and the Academy Admissions refers to is a bonafide official nomination which marries a single candidate with an single opening. One nomination per each opening which the MOC has for that particular year. It will be either the primary candidate if the MOC goes that route or the one candidate that the Admissions Office selects if the MOC goes the competitive route. All other candidates who have qualified academically, physically, and medically become qualified alternates. Once all the mandatory nominations are completed, the Admissions Office will fill the remainder of the class with qualified alternates based solely on order of merit from the whole-person points system. Seventy-five percent of these qualified alternates are required by law to obtain one of the MOC's remaining nine alternate nominations for each opening.

So yes, if your daughter does not have the single nomination as either depicted by being a principal or selected as the primary by the admissions office, she does not have a true bonafide nomination. She will enter the qualified alternate national pool and compete with candidates nationwide based solely on merit. Yes, she needs to keep pushing and try to obtain an official mandatory nomination to prevent her from having to compete nationally. As of now, she does not have the "nomination" as specified in the LOA.
 
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FatherOfFive

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USNA69 said:
So yes, if your daughter does not have the single nomination as either depicted by being a principal or selected as the primary by the admissions office, she does not have a true bonafide nomination.
Ok, now that I understand this, I say we shoot the messenger! :wink:

I have learned a great deal more than I knew before. My kid will not get an LOA so this aspect is trivia for him, but talk about misleading! If my kid received an LOA and fulfilled all the requirements stated and did not receive an appointment, meanwhile he had turned down a half a million dollars in full ride scholarships to other schools, not to mention other academies, I would consult an attorney. Fortunately, this situation while possible, I hope happens about as often as a meteor crashing into a home and killing someone while they sleep. To continue to interview for nominations on this basis is akin to buying meteor insurance.

All this talk of: that 'nomination' is not really a 'nomination' reminds me of Bill Clinton and Monica what's her name. "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is." While I do not dispute what you are saying, this is Bull Hockey!

Meanwhile, getting more than one nomination to the same academy is difficult to achieve as many congressman will compare notes with the Senator's office to avoid this very thing.

-FoF
 

USNA69

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FatherOfFive said:
While I do not dispute what you are saying, this is Bull Hockey! FoF
This may be Bull Hockey but it is also federal law. The law very specifically states that each MOC may have a maximum of five bodies at the Academy at any one time. Once these slots are filled along with SecNav, the President, etc., again federal law dictates that the remaining slots be filled by qualified alternates. The first 150 of these openings are based on merit alone. Merit being the whole-person point concept as modified by the admissions board. 75% of all these qualified alternates must have one of the alternate MOC nominations. All of this is federal law. It won't do you any good to shoot the messenger. If you don't like it, talk to your MOC.

Keep in mind that a true nomination is a single candidate filling a single opening. All the other nominations are alternates.

The Academy literature, in many locations, states that all candidates should pursue all possible nominations.

Yes, the vast majority of LOAs do enter the Academy but it is not guaranteed until that candidate receives a nomination into one of his MOC's available openings.

Probably the only place that this could hurt would be doing the Senatorial process first. A 9th alternate nomination resulting and a subsequent failure to apply for the Congressional where the candidate would have a much higher odds of receiving a primary. Thus, the candidate would be a qualified alternate instead of a nominee.

Second scenario: The 150 qualified alternate mandatory merit openings have been filled. Two candidates with exactly the same order of merit. One opening. One has applied for every available nomination. The other only did one. Which candidate shows the most perseverence? Which do you think the Admissions Dept will choose?
 

FatherOfFive

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USNA69 said:
The Academy literature, in many locations, states that all candidates should pursue all possible nominations.
It depends on what that means, if it means, pursue multiple nominations it should say that. I read that and I took it to mean apply to all nominating authorites to which are qualifed by law to apply to.

If I told you to pursue all possible avenues to get to the football game on time, would you continue to pursue additional avenues after arriving at the football game?

If an LOA does not guarantee appointment, it should say that as well.

Again, I do not have a dog in this fight, but if I had an LOA and met the conditions spelled out in the letter and did not get an appointment I would seek damages. And if this is how the Navy is going to treat people, it would make me question why anyone would want to be a part of that. Can anyone say Coast Guard?

Q: What does the 'A' in LOA stand for:
A: Nothing!

Out of the 200-300 people who receive LOA's how many of them belive that if they follow all the requirements spelled out in the LOA they are guaranteed of receiving an appointment?

I would guess 99%+ would. And 99%+ would be wrong. That why I say it is misleading.

I am guessing that for all my ranting I am tilting at windmills as these types of occurences are as scarce as hens teeth. Otherwise they would be getting sued.

I am not asking you to defend the system, I am just giving my opinion of it.
 

jamzmom

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FatherOfFive said:
Meanwhile, getting more than one nomination to the same academy is difficult to achieve as many congressman will compare notes with the Senator's office to avoid this very thing.

-FoF
Depends on the state. My son had no LOA. He received five nominations. Three to USMMA & two to USNA. One of his nominations came from NJROTC. One Representative gave him two to different academies. Talk about difficult to understand. Every person he talked to said to apply to all sources. I don't know why he'd gotten so many. Could be that there were not enough qualified applicants here? Does having more than one look better to an academy? I dunno. I do know that our state offices compared notes on the nominations so each was aware that he was going to get them & from who. Its a strange process & very difficult to figure it out. Just do what they tell you & no one looses an eye in all the fun & games. ;)
 
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