Arizona Governor signs new immigration law, Obama disagrees with the states rights?

[Just_A_Mom]

I think you're missing the point this law. LOCAL law enforcment within the state of Arizona are required by the new law, not ICE. They are able to "go after them".

How is local law enforcement going to afford the manpower to walk into businesses, demand employee records and conduct investigations to verify they are legal?
How does local law enforcement have the right to inspect FEDERAL employment records without a search warrant.
I just don't see this happening.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Good questions....especially regarding man power, but I think you're going to "see it happen".

 

[AF6872]

JAM
By the way I do look like one of those illegals and my name might indicate that I was one. Back in the day before the "Celtic Tiger" we had a lot of illegal people from that individual country working here. I met many of them. They were afraid of being pulled over in any kind of traffic stop. They all went home when it was great to be there after their economy was the best in the EU. Since their economy is tanking once again they will again be here in force. Let's just give them amnesty. The Supreme Court says it is a right. Where is it a privelege?

 

[flieger83]

How is local law enforcement going to afford the manpower to walk into businesses, demand employee records and conduct investigations to verify they are legal?
How does local law enforcement have the right to inspect FEDERAL employment records without a search warrant.
I just don't see this happening.

Again, the law doesn't afford this as a "right" per se and NO LEO agency in AZ has said that this would be one of the duties.

They have simply said that in the course of a legal "contact" which so far EVERY law enforcement agent has said would be things like traffic stops for law violation, DUI checkpoints, etc...NOT simple random acts...the law would give them the ability to check.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
(Hong Kong visitor)

 

[Luigi59]

I've finally seen the light.

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist (immigrant) infiltration, Communist (immigrant) indoctrination, Communist (immigrant) subversion and the international Communist (immigrant) conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Brig Gen John. D. "Jack" Ripper
Commanding Officer
843rd Bomb Wing
Burpleson Air Force Base

 

[flieger83]

I've finally seen the light.

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist (immigrant) infiltration, Communist (immigrant) indoctrination, Communist (immigrant) subversion and the international Communist (immigrant) conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Brig Gen John. D. "Jack" Ripper
Commanding Officer
843rd Bomb Wing
Burpleson Air Force Base

Well Luigi, if you're going to "trash" (by that I mean insert ANYTHING into such a classic scene from a classic, SAC trained killer movie ) at least make the distinction that is appropriate:

"Replace Immigrant" with "ILLEGAL immigrant."

That's what the issue is, not legal immigrants.

Steve

 

[LineInTheSand]

Have a LEGAL immigrant aunt....she is CERTAINLY against illegal immigration....after all she did the right think, had to wait a good deal of time, while others exploit the system.

If you haven't dealt with illegal immigrants, it's good to remember a number are criminals, killers and thugs.

 

[Mel2001]

Have a LEGAL immigrant aunt....she is CERTAINLY against illegal immigration....after all she did the right think, had to wait a good deal of time, while others exploit the system.

If you haven't dealt with illegal immigrants, it's good to remember a number are criminals, killers and thugs.

Good point, and what I brushed on in my long-winded post from the weekend. Not ALL illegal immigrants come to the US to break the law further. MOST just want a better life for their families.

But, most illegal immigrants that are pulled over in traffic stops, or arrested from other incidents, ARE breaking other laws (drug dealers, coyotes transporting illegals across the border, sex trade, etc.) are the ones that the AZ law targets. I was talking w/a neighbor this morning who used to work for the State of CA. She said it was a beaurocratic nightmare in the early/mid 80's when the US allowed amnesty for the illegal immigrants. There would be 50+ people using the SAME SSN. The US should have a better system for issuing work visas, and then the laborers should be able to renew them--IF that's what they're in the US for. The federal law should also better explain what rights would be given to babies born on US soil to non-US citizens. But, I don't see this happening in my lifetime. We may have a manned mission to Mars, first!

 

[linkgmr]

Okay...I have a few questions....
Why did Mexico's Senate waste time passing a resolution to tell a politician in another country to veto a law? Do they have no other problems to solve? Are the "illegal immigrant's rights" mentioned by the Vice President of Guatemala anything like squatter's rights?
But the main ones are...
How, exactly, can they enforce this law constitutionally? It just seems to be at odds with the whole concept of equal protection. What constitutes "reason to suspect"? How can they honestly expect to enforce the bits about it being illegal to "knowingly transport" and "hire illegal immigrants for day labor"?

 

[flieger83]

Okay...I have a few questions....
Why did Mexico's Senate waste time passing a resolution to tell a politician in another country to veto a law? Do they have no other problems to solve? Are the "illegal immigrant's rights" mentioned by the Vice President of Guatemala anything like squatter's rights?
But the main ones are...
How, exactly, can they enforce this law constitutionally? It just seems to be at odds with the whole concept of equal protection. What constitutes "reason to suspect"? How can they honestly expect to enforce the bits about it being illegal to "knowingly transport" and "hire illegal immigrants for day labor"?

Here's a "reasonable suspicion" situation...

LEO pulls over a car for a legal reason (speeding, DUI checkpoint, minor accident, whatever...) and goes to the driver...

"License, registration, and proof of insurance please."

Driver...no response, or some mumbling, no eye contact, etc.

"Sir/Ma'm...did you understand my question?" Answer: "No hablo ingles" or "Kein Englische", "Je' n'parl Anglais..." whatever

"Sir/Ma'm...can you speak English? Do you have a Passport, ID card?"
(Note, tourists from overseas are required by LAW to carry their national ID (passport, ID, etc., with them while in the USA plus the little card they fill out when they arrive) and if they're driving, they must have either their national drivers license or an Int'l DL with them.

If after ALL this the officer has gotten nowhere, then they would probably have reasonable cause to suspect that something is amiss here and could call in for more assistance/information.

So they do a little more digging into the driver's credentials. If he/she turns out to be illegal, they detain them for ICE.

Now, for the "... "knowingly transport" and "hire illegal immigrants for day labor" portion...I'm "assuming" you don't live in a state with a huge illegal population. Where I live it is EASY to find the locales where these folks congregate for jobs. They are aggressive, will approach any pickup truck that slows looking for cheap labor. Go there, watch someone hire a bunch of them and then bust the driver and passengers. It's really easy, but ICE doesn't do it because the current government has zero interest in enforcing federal immigration laws.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[bsa07eagle]

Wow, I was pretty young when I lived in AZ, but I remember lots of people going to the corner lot and hiring those guys for day labor (everyone did it). I remember that we even did it a couple times.

Later,

Brian

 

[MakeItHappen]

Here's a "reasonable suspicion" situation...

LEO pulls over a car for a legal reason (speeding, DUI checkpoint, minor accident, whatever...) and goes to the driver...

"License, registration, and proof of insurance please."

Driver...no response, or some mumbling, no eye contact, etc.

"Sir/Ma'm...did you understand my question?" Answer: "No hablo ingles" or "Kein Englische", "Je' n'parl Anglais..." whatever

"Sir/Ma'm...can you speak English? Do you have a Passport, ID card?"
(Note, tourists from overseas are required by LAW to carry their national ID (passport, ID, etc., with them while in the USA plus the little card they fill out when they arrive) and if they're driving, they must have either their national drivers license or an Int'l DL with them.

If after ALL this the officer has gotten nowhere, then they would probably have reasonable cause to suspect that something is amiss here and could call in for more assistance/information.

So they do a little more digging into the driver's credentials. If he/she turns out to be illegal, they detain them for ICE.

Now, for the "... "knowingly transport" and "hire illegal immigrants for day labor" portion...I'm "assuming" you don't live in a state with a huge illegal population. Where I live it is EASY to find the locales where these folks congregate for jobs. They are aggressive, will approach any pickup truck that slows looking for cheap labor. Go there, watch someone hire a bunch of them and then bust the driver and passengers. It's really easy, but ICE doesn't do it because the current government has zero interest in enforcing federal immigration laws.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

Sorry, but about 95% of your post is legally incorrect. You don't understand the legal distinction between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" and what constitutes "search" and "seizure". Your hypotheticals and analysis would get you a an "F" at any law school. Please quit beating a dead horse.

Again, sorry.

 

[MakeItHappen]

But then I don't want them to tell the government or anyone else that the USA needs to provide them with anything in their language as the language in use in the USA is English.

Phoenix is playing a pretty good game against the Spurs tonight. Why are they wearing jerseys that read "LOS SUNS"?

Short answer: Capitalism.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Phoenix is playing a pretty good game against the Spurs tonight. Why are they wearing jerseys that read "LOS SUNS"?

Short answer: Capitalism.

That's only half Spanish.

NBA had less viewership than the NHL this year.

 

[flieger83]

Sorry, but about 95% of your post is legally incorrect. You don't understand the legal distinction between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" and what constitutes "search" and "seizure". Your hypotheticals and analysis would get you a an "F" at any law school. Please quit beating a dead horse.

Again, sorry.

Well, you know...I wasn't attempting to write a legal brief or precis for anything. And as I assumed most of the audience wasn't lawyers, I was going to use common vernacular (albeit not legalese and filled with words that would make a lawyer cringe) to try to describe the very situation that was described in fine legalese by the Maricopa County prosecutor in a TV interview.

But you are correct, my word choice would confuse any legal scholar as my comments mixed terms such as suspicion and cause. Again, I didn't dust my Blackstone's off to research this, I just typed "off the cuff"...and yes, I actually DO have a copy from earlier legal studies.

Suffice it to say my point was this: you will not see law enforcement folks just stopping people because they're "brown/black/green/blue" skinned or have accents. The entire issue of "legal presence" (insert words of your choice to describe having a legal right to be in the country) will ONLY come up if during a legal "contact" if something triggers the issue.

So to summarize...you are correct re: Reasonable Suspicion versus Probable Cause. I don't know where you apply the "search" and "seizure" portion but this isn't meant to be a huge legal class/debate, simply a discussion of a "potential law" in my home state. And I say "potential" because its not law until 90 days after the signing by the governor.

As for this being a "dead horse." While folks around the nation continue to misrepresent the "law", its intent, and debate it, etc., I fail to see how it could be a "dead horse."

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Maximus]

Have a LEGAL immigrant aunt....she is CERTAINLY against illegal immigration....after all she did the right think, had to wait a good deal of time, while others exploit the system.

If you haven't dealt with illegal immigrants, it's good to remember a number are criminals, killers and thugs.

I have personally worked with two good friends on US Citizenship. One (worked for me) from Ireland and another (Business partner) from Honduras; and if you haven't actually worked with in the process, you have no idea what they go through to get Citizenship. I've actually helped study for the history test and most here would flat fail that one without some serious book time It's years to complete and the scrutiny is incredible. My friend Luis is actually PO about the prospect of another "Amnesty" being passed, even though he has family he'd like to bring here.

BTW as a footnote, Luis has become very successful in this country, and has wrapped himself in the Flag; from his Harley Sportster, to his American only cars!

 

[Maximus]

Sorry, but about 95% of your post is legally incorrect. You don't understand the legal distinction between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" and what constitutes "search" and "seizure". Your hypotheticals and analysis would get you a an "F" at any law school. Please quit beating a dead horse.

Again, sorry.

Wow! lol

ACLU or SPLC?

I think the intention of this new proposed law, the 10th Amendment and 70% approval rating of this law in Arizona, show the passion people have for their rights as Citizens, and name calling isn't backing them off. It's not a dead horse and saying so, won't make it go away.

Mr. Obama, please secure our boarders and protect the Citizens you swore an oath to.

 

[MakeItHappen]

Wow! lol

ACLU or SPLC?

Neither. Your narrow-mindedness is showing.

I think the intention of this new proposed law, the 10th Amendment and 70% approval rating of this law in Arizona, show the passion people have for their rights as Citizens

At best, it shows folks sheer frustration with our lack of comprehensive immigration policy. At worst, (fill in the blank).

It's not a dead horse and saying so, won't make it go away.

It's a dead horse in the sense that the law will not stand until vetted by the courts. We'll await the outcome.

Mr. Obama, please secure our boarders and protect the Citizens you swore an oath to.

Well there you go again. Quit *****ing about Obama. This problem has been around for decades, but it's the President's fault. In Texas, we have one Republican Senator who has been in office for 17 years. The other Republican Senator has been in office 8 yrs., preceeded by another Republican Senator of 17 yrs. They all took an oath, but have done zilch, nothing about a comprehensive plan. The Leftists and the Rightists have screwed up on thing after another. More Americans need to think for themselves and quit listening to the political infotainers on TV and radio. You understand they get PAID to say stupid stuff. You betcha!

 

[LineInTheSand]

A number of "bad words" in that post....

 

[bruno]

ok folks lets keep this on the up &up. You can disagree vehemently with each other on what is a contentious national debate- without resorting to insults or profanity (either of which will also get you an F at any law school).