BSA Core Values....

I tend to agree with the article in the original post, the BSA needs to make a decision and make that decision a national one. Personally, they also need to keep up with the times, but that's just my opinion.

BSA is not what it used to be when I was younger, even Cub Scouts has changed it's perception among its peers. When I was young it was common to see scouts wearing their uniform to school on meeting days, that would Never happen today.

Face it, BSA is just not cool anymore, I remember my older son came home from a District Jamboree and told us he saw quite a few kids from his High School, kids he never knew were in Scouts. I laughed when he said they all had a look on their face that said "Don't tell anyone you saw me here"

The lack of kids not participating in Scouts in my opinion, has nothing to do with a generation being slackers (Something I don't believe this generation is) it has to do with the growing number of out of school opportunities kids have today. When looking at the Club Sports that start as early as 4 and 5 years old, Music camps, High School EC's, these kids are pretty busy these days. Many wouldn't have the time for Scouts even if they wanted to join.

Sure not every Eagle Scout is a model citizen, that can be said for almost every organization. Even the Military is not the last bastion of honor and integrity the recruiting commercials lead one to believe, one only need to read the newspaper to understand that. There are those that just check off the required boxes to reach Eagle, even then that's quit a few boxes. Parents that push their kids to reach Eagle are doing them no great service. Even with all this very few scouts ever make Eagle.

I'll admit, both my sons made Eagle, they did it on their own and with guidance from the Scout leadership. When my younger son reached 18 the troop had shrunk to low membership levels, recruiting new scouts is hard today for reasons I mentioned above. We were lucky, our kids were in a good troop with great leaders but trust me, over my involvement I saw plenty of the opposite. Scouts were a great opportunity for my wife and I to be involved with our boys in ways that we had not imagined. The boys learned to Scuba Dive, both getting Advanced Certs. We went on two dive trips to the BSA Seabase. The boys gained a love for backpacking and still enjoy it today. What they learned in orienteering was of great value when it came to Land Nav in ROTC. I remember when my older son started ROTC, he called one day and said they had just done a 7 mile Ruck March, he laughed because most the new cadets grumbled when they heard they would have to carry a 30lb pack, my son thought "Wow this is easy, last summer we did 50 miles with 65lb packs around Mt. Rainer. Scouts was a benefit to both of them.

Scoutpilot,

Your right, not a lot of people my age are running to join the Elks or Eagles, these organizations are suffering as well. I have to admit, my wife and I did join the Eagles in our neigborhood, actually a lot of fun, who would have thought.

As far as our generation screwing everything up, it's easy to feel that way. I thought the generation before mine messed things up pretty good, Vietnam tops that list. I guess I'm at the tail end of what they call Baby Boomers and we have a lot to answer for that is true. Every generation has problems with the generation that came before, I figure you must be in your early 30's, it won't be long before these younger kids start blaming your generation for the problems they will have, it's a big circle.

Your generation is no worse or better then the generations before, just different. I look at this generation of 20's and 30 year olds and see a lot of passion to make change, undeniable sacrifice, and a drive to make a difference. There were a lot of those same qualities in our generation. Most of the problems you mentioned were overseen by those older the I, and I share your frustration but I don't feel they ruined "Everything" although they did put a few dents in the fender.

Your right, we did raise this new generation of 20 sometings, and from those that I've met, that makes me pretty proud. Slackers, I don't think so, my kids have done more in their lives to date then I ever did, it was exhausting sometimes just to keep up.

Now the trick will be to keep this new generation from falling into the same pattern as those generation before, easier said then done.

Hopefully BSA will figure it out before they hurt themselves anymore, there is a lot of good still there with the right leadership.
 
I tend to agree with the article in the original post, the BSA needs to make a decision and make that decision a national one.

Maybe it's my inner Libertarian speaking, but I would have liked to see the BSA let each individual troop decide on a policy, given that this is a very polarizing issue and there's not a whole lot of consensus at the national level over what to do (and that the inmates are running the asylum at the National Council). I think the current policy of keeping gay youth but not gay leaders will work about as well as the Treaty of Versailles; before long, I think this will set off another firestorm a la summer of 2012 when the gay ban was reaffirmed. I hope I'm wrong, I hope this gets settled without that degree of rancor and name-calling, but I'm not optimistic.
 
BSA is not what it used to be when I was younger, even Cub Scouts has changed it's perception among its peers. When I was young it was common to see scouts wearing their uniform to school on meeting days, that would Never happen today.

Face it, BSA is just not cool anymore, I remember my older son came home from a District Jamboree and told us he saw quite a few kids from his High School, kids he never knew were in Scouts. I laughed when he said they all had a look on their face that said "Don't tell anyone you saw me here"

I'd disagree here. Most of the kids in my high school were impressed with my friends and I who made Eagle, and it was the norm for the kids who were involved in scouting to wear something scouting related to school, even on non meeting days. Not a uniform, but a troop fleece or cap. Ditto for the girls who were involved in Girl Scouts and who earned their Gold Award. Granted, our troop enrollment was low (in my HS of 800 or so kids, half of them male, only about 30 or so were in my troop) but those who were scouts were generally held in high regard, especially the Eagles. There were a few kids who thought scouting was for dorks, but they were a minority.
 
I'd disagree here. Most of the kids in my high school were impressed with my friends and I who made Eagle, and it was the norm for the kids who were involved in scouting to wear something scouting related to school, even on non meeting days. Not a uniform, but a troop fleece or cap. Ditto for the girls who were involved in Girl Scouts and who earned their Gold Award. Granted, our troop enrollment was low (in my HS of 800 or so kids, half of them male, only about 30 or so were in my troop) but those who were scouts were generally held in high regard, especially the Eagles. There were a few kids who thought scouting was for dorks, but they were a minority.

I think a lot depends on where your from and the High School you attended.

My son's high school didn't allow military uniforms worn on campus by recruiters or even attendees at the Vetrans Day Assembly (Which usually included at least one protest) BSA was seen by most as a conservitive organization not welcome on campus, advertising for scouts was not allowed either.

Glad to hear your school was different, not all fall into that category.
 
I think a lot depends on where your from and the High School you attended.

True. To be honest I was surprised by how supportive people in my town are of scouting. Even the teachers at my high school who politically are to the left of Karl Marx (and I'm in RI, so there are plenty of them) thought highly of scouting.
 
I only knew a couple other scouts in High School, and it certainly wasn't the "in" thing.
 
My son just finished his eagle paperwork and will be an official eagle in the next month. We were blessed with a great troop (which I think is the key) and it's been a wonderful experience and he has loved his time in scouts. It's been hard to make the campouts with his varsity sports but he is becoming an ASM when he turns 18 in March and is looking forward to hitting a few more campouts before he goes to school.

I hope the organization survives their wishy washy policy and remains a popular choice for young boys to grow and learn. It has really helped to shape my son in a positive way.
 
Congratulations to him!! My oldest made Eagle last year and I know how much work it represents.
I love that my son has stayed active in the troop with his two younger brothers. Scouting is still going strong especially where there is good leadership from the adults.

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The "membership but not leadership" decision is not going to work. It is a clear cave to outside pressures. If the BSA can't decide what it stands for and practice that, it will continue to decline.

As a program Scouting has SO much potential. Unfortunately, I think the BSA is trying to be all things to all people a little too often. Yes, their goals are comprehensive in terms of citizenship, outdoors skills, community involvement, hobbies, etc, etc, but I think they are in need of some focus.
 
USMA at one point not to long ago had 50% of her cadets were Eagle Scouts.

When was "not to[o] long ago?"

Just curious, because I find it hard to believe that anywhere near 50% of my male classmates are Eagles. Admittedly anecdotal, but any one company at USMA should serve as a relatively random sample, and I can think of only one Eagle among my classmates in my company.

We're celebrating the 25th anniversary of our graduation on May 24th. Sometimes I think that 1989 was not too long ago. Sometimes I know it was a long time ago.
 
I think that there are plenty of other avenues to pursue leadership and to weigh so heavily on one organization is short sided . I tried being involved with GSA with my 3 daughters and the organization made it very difficult for a mother of 4 children ( spanning only 5 years) so I dropped it. My children have all found other avenues for leadership and have not suffered. My DS is USNA class of 2018.
 
I have followed this topic for a while now and decided I should speak my perspective.

A few things I should specify early in this conversation. First, I am a Eagle Scout, Class of 1973. Secondly, I am, admittedly, a very religious person. Third, while I try my best to live my life based upon the values of my faith, I am fully aware that not everyone shares the same values or the same faith as I. These three things guide me in my thoughts regarding BSA.

As Raimius has pointed out, Scouting has so much potential, but yet is in need of focus. One such focus that I would encourage them to remember is that they are part of an International Organization. Scouting IS world wide. I have been fortunate enough to participate in Scouting functions in Japan, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Kuwait, Qatar, and of course the good old USA! At an early stage in my Scouting career, I was taught to be tolerant of others and that would lead to respect. I bring this forward because I have always felt that this was one of the best assets Scouting gave me. I learned very quickly that not everyone shared my belief system and that that was OK. That skill set proved to be invaluable as a Marine was one thing that set me apart from my peers. It also greatly helped me when dealing with foreign nationals.

With that in mind, I would really like to see BSA teach that tolerance again with a broader acceptance policy at the National level. I have often felt that they as an organization could help this Country greatly by being a wonderful example by showing the Country that people of multiple faiths, background, and belief systems can cooperate, and compromise to find the best solutions to move forward.

++ Great post. Based on the way you think, I am sure you were and are a
fantastic leader. We sure could use a lot more people, like you, leading from a stance of inclusivity rather than exclusivity.
 
What a loss....

I have also been involved in scouting most of my life. As a young man, I was taught the importance of respect for all and treating others, as I would like to be treated. When I became an adult leader, my organization was an oasis, if you will for many young men to enjoy an environment that was safe and they felt protected and could learn from mentors. We had a family atmosphere in our unit and many activities included the family. Our sponsorship was the “parents of troop…” Many who wanted to join our unit knew what and how we operated and had a strong attraction to us because of the “core values” we cultivated and parallel BSA guild lines.

Under false pretenses a family joined our unit. Their son was welcomed with open arms by the adult and scout leadership. The family knew all to well BSA policy and frankly I didn’t care about their relationship between themselves. Many families suspected the two men where gay and I had a few families leave because of this. They wanted to be part of our unit because of the environment we had and did not want to expose their family to “the gay issue”. On our next outing, the two men expressed their affection for one another openly. This upset most of the other families who promptly packed up and left. Now remember these two men knew BSA policy and acted for the “shock value” and wanted to test the boundaries. As a matter of respect for others, I never had a straight couple express their affection openly during meetings or outings. The ranks of our unit began to shrink quickly. Shortly after the scouts noticed many of their friends vanished and the subject of gay preference became a hot topic amongst the boys. The gay family was asked to leave and as predicted with much resistance. The local paper that one of the gentlemen worked for printed an article about their negative experience and how narrow-minded we were in the BSA unit. I thought, to myself maybe I am behind the times until the adult leadership fell apart when a scout was inquiring about the definition of gay preference and behavior. Never ever, never ever should an adult have a conversation with a minor outside the family about this subject. Soon more families left and our scouting unit fell from 100 scouts to just ten!

Our unit was an oasis where families felt they could enjoy other families who shared the same values as theirs. They felt it was their responsibility to teach their children about the value of chastity, marriage and family. Not have someone else from the outside force his or her opinion.

The families who were members of our unit, we had some single moms too, wanted a safe area free of conversation about sexual preference and behavior. And to accept all walks of life, to become responsible fathers of their own families!

The two men had an agenda to destroy our BSA unit. And they succeeded. It’s a well-coordinated attack on a 100-year-old institution that lost sight of its core values and leadership at the top forgetting its about the scouts and not the money.


Push Hard, Press Forward
 
I question the strength of the club and organization that can be completely taken down by two dudes kissing.

By stigmatizing loving same-sex couples, y'all allowed benign behavior to become an oversized issue - and regardless of the couple's intentions, it would have been a non-issue if inclusiveness and mutual respect was actually the reigning ideal.

What was the shock value? Did they hold hands? Gasp, did they kiss? Somehow I doubt that kind of behavior was completely avoided by all members in scouting events. And if it was, in fact, enforcing the club rules equally would make a discrimination grievance hard to sell.

Never ever, never ever should an adult have a conversation with a minor outside the family about this subject.

Wrong. So wrong. I've been with my husband around my young nieces and nephews. Sponsor family. Other families. Etc. Kids: "Why are you two holding hands? How come you're married as two guys?" Me: "We are in love and we are married." Kids: "Oh ok, cool" and they move on without a second thought. Kids understand love and won't be uncomfortable unless an adult/parent stigmatizes a behavior. And to have to characterize same-sex relationships by sex instead of love just further justifies ignorance and stigmatization. Explaining it as love and affections is a language kids understand and is hardly rated over G.

Seriously, if two men kissing can bring down an entire club with such "strong core values," how strong are those values. As tpg emphasized, encouraging and teaching mutual respect and acknowledging that people come in many flavors and belief systems probably would have made this scenario a non-issue.
 
My Choice......

Congrats hornetguy for being selected to attend the AFA and finding success completing the road less traveled. And thank you for your service!!

Our Scout unit was, by design, organized not to be clouded by someone’s sexual preference. Or behavior, there are as you know many creepy straight folks out there. We focused on the ideals Scouting offered and these lessons of character building and leadership became the center point of our goals. The families found a common ground to pull together as a small community, if you will. (I learned families are not by blood but function)

I take great offence for someone or something to intervene the values, morals and ideals I display and teach my family. And so should you! As fathers, we reserve that right and it’s our responsibility. (Everyday the media is telling us how to look, how to behave as an example)

For example: a young hip rapper who designs catch phrases in his art to promote hate and/or violence. You would certainly take action on what young ears are exposed to.

Or as another example: Your state politicians are not skilled in spending and balancing a budget, decide to find “out of the norm” revenue streams. And now cannabis is legalized. You would certainly be worried about someone telling a young person you are raising, “Its ok! Its good for you, everyone is doing it.”

I have always had a personal practice to size someone up by “their works, their deeds, what they value” as a gauge of their content, their character. Not based upon their sexual preference or behavior, its none of my business.

Don’t make it my business.

You and I have a common thread. We both served our country proudly, to preserve the rappers ability to sell his art, allowing his followers to buy it or not. We served willingly to sacrifice our lives so voters could elect the Politian’s and allow us to choose for ourselves what we put in our bodies.

However, don’t force me to accept whatever you're selling. Too many have sacrificed everything for us, to simple "choose."

Push Hard, Press Forward
 
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I was never in Scouts...I'm a girl, so definitely not Boy Scouts, and never ended up in Girl Scouts. What I've noticed though, is that it seems like many of those my age who are in BSA/GSA stay in and finish up their Eagle Scout Award or Gold Award (GSA version of Eagle Scout) just because it's such a big accomplishment. Other than that, they don't like Scouts as much as they used to when they were younger for whatever reason. Don't know why, not going to attempt to guess; probably a variety of reasons. I think that's worth noting.

Actually, someone mentioned something the other day about getting their Eagle Scout Award and someone said, "You're in Boy Scouts?" and the kid said, "Yeah," sort of sheepishly, as if it was something not to be proud of.

That's just something I noticed, and it seems to possibly be a growing trend(?). It doesn't seem to be considered the "cool" thing to do.
 
Perfect.

Wrong. So wrong. I've been with my husband around my young nieces and nephews. Sponsor family. Other families. Etc. Kids: "Why are you two holding hands? How come you're married as two guys?" Me: "We are in love and we are married." Kids: "Oh ok, cool" and they move on without a second thought. Kids understand love and won't be uncomfortable unless an adult/parent stigmatizes a behavior. And to have to characterize same-sex relationships by sex instead of love just further justifies ignorance and stigmatization. Explaining it as love and affections is a language kids understand and is hardly rated over G.
 
I was a Scout for a few years in Middle School. I think I was a First Class? That sounds right. Anyway, I quit (as did many others) when high school started because there were other activities to take up my time. This was about 20 years ago, but even then, the majority didn't stick around to make Eagle. High school had sports, drama, and a bunch of other things which can compete for a kid's attention.

I think that my experience was good for those oh-so-fun years between 11 and 14. I never liked sleeping in the woods all that much, but enjoyed having friends in the Troop. That's really all it was for me.

Unless the Scouts change their organizational view with respect to gay members and atheists, I don't think I'd encourage my sons (should I have them) to do it. There are other ways to have social interactions and learn about leadership. We will never camp as a vacation, so I don't so much care if they learn how to tie knots and build a fire. The Army can teach them that if they go that route, and if they really want to do it, I can find a summer camp that teaches the same skills. The County pool can teach them how to swim. Rec league can give them sporting experience, and there are numerous artistic outlets in my area should that be of interest to them.

I don't think there is one set of "traditional values" given the diversity of our country. That term always bugs me.

If the Scouts don't want to associate with gay people or those who don't espouse religious faith, it doesn't seem to me that the organization is willing to leave behind a WASPy 1950s worldview. That's not realistic, and not really relevant anymore. Sure, things like being responsible and honest still are, but the BSA doesn't have a monopoly on teaching those values. I do think the reluctance to change is what'll continue to cause a decline in membership, and that's what'll devalue what it means to make Eagle. Worse, it'll be seen as an organization that fits on one side of the culture wars (if it isn't already). When I was in it as a kid, BSA was apolitical and was embraced by a lot of folks on the outside. I remember Steven Spielberg coming to the Jamboree in '89, and he has since disassociated with the organization because of its choices. That is the real shame.

I know others have a different opinion.
 
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