Careers after military ROTC vs Academy

[hornetguy]

The facilities are better than most graduate departments at major universities. We have incredible instrumentation in our labs, most things are almost brand new. Since I've been here, I've watched instruments I used in class 2 years ago already be replaced. We have TWO NMRs (these are incredible instruments that many school have archaic versions of), 2 X-ray diffractometers, and lots of ICPs, GC/MS, FTIRs, etc. While this probably means nother to you, this is a top notch place for chemistry.

Yup, grad degree could be vastly different. I was applying for MIT, Harvard, RAND, and some others. I mostly went for policy based programs, though I had the chance to continue in chemistry or another technical field as well. I chose policy instead.

 

[Zaphod]

I am a Biochemistry major with a Japanese minor.

Ohayo gozeimashta, Hornet-san!

(Or however the hell you spell it!)

 

[America's Finest]

This may be true when you leave at 27 and 5 yrs in, but it will have little or nothing to do as the reason when you leave at 8, 12 or 20. You will be treated just like every other job candidate. Your RESUME regarding your job positions will be your make or break. Companies do not care at that age where your undergrad came from, they want to see your job progression and if you fill the squares for the position. They are not going to take the SA grad who did not get a Masters over the ROTC grad who did. It does not make business sense. The airlines are not going to hire the SA grad who flew A-10's over the ROTC grad who flew F-22s just because he is an SA grad. Defense companies are not going to hire the SA grad who never did a Pentagon rotation for a Pentagon job over the person that did.

It is what you do after you graduate that will determine how your corporate career chances will pan out.

If you are starting to weigh the option o only doing a 5 and dive, I would suggest that you be smart, and as soon as you get to your 1st base, get your Masters on the military dime. You should be able to complete it in time so you owe no more time back. That way you are still close enough for your undergrad degree to matter, but you give yourself a leg up with a grad degree.

Think about it, let's say you leave at 30, are you trying to get an entry level position in management? Of course not! Thus, you will admit that your career positions over the last 8 yrs and a Masters will be of more value than who your commissioning source is.

I would say, that the SA from an academic point does give a better advantage than ROTC for one reason. SA cadets have a higher chance to get great academic slots after graduation...Harvard, Rand, Rhodes, etc. That will translate into a major plus not only for your military career, but post military, regardless of when you leave. For example, every yr the SA will have cadets that go directly to Oxford, Harvard, MIT, Rand, etc for their Ph.D. They will incur an additional commitment, but it doesn't matter. The military has tagged them as their future leader, thus their career will be given an early edge. If they decide to leave, what company is not going to say take the guy with a Ph.D from MIT? That being stated, just because you are at an SA does not mean you are competitive for these scholarships, you will need to be the best of the best to even get the chance to compete for this, and when you do, you are competing against not only other SA cadets, but students from around the country.

That's what I meant: people who leave after 5 years. Many even get job offers at or before graduation telling them that they have a seat saved in their company for when they finish their commitment. Obviously, later on when people start accumulating merits those will play a larger role than where they graduated.

Oh and I am not sure if you were directing that comment at me about 5 and dive or just for the general public but just in case: I have no intentions of leaving after 5 years. I plan to have a military career and join the civilian workforce after that.

 

[Pima]

That's what I meant: people who leave after 5 years. Many even get job offers at or before graduation telling them that they have a seat saved in their company for when they finish their commitment

That may be very true for small corporations, but in defense world or fortune 500's they are not going to hold a seat for you in 5 yrs. IMHO, that is just a generic statement, they don't believe that in 5 yrs you expect to walk in and start a job the next day just because of the ring knocker on your finger. The only way that really does happen is if you stay in personal contact through those 5 yrs., and even then it might be iffy...look at our economy now, 5 yrs ago nobody would have predicted 10% unemployment. Those that are able to leave this summer, might be re-thinking that option. If they do, in a large majority decide to stay, it is highly likely in a few yrs certain commissioning yrs will face a RIF or see promotion rates drop severely. I recall at one time the AF O-4 board dropped to 60%.

 

[America's Finest]

That may be very true for small corporations, but in defense world or fortune 500's they are not going to hold a seat for you in 5 yrs. IMHO, that is just a generic statement, they don't believe that in 5 yrs you expect to walk in and start a job the next day just because of the ring knocker on your finger. The only way that really does happen is if you stay in personal contact through those 5 yrs., and even then it might be iffy...look at our economy now, 5 yrs ago nobody would have predicted 10% unemployment. Those that are able to leave this summer, might be re-thinking that option. If they do, in a large majority decide to stay, it is highly likely in a few yrs certain commissioning yrs will face a RIF or see promotion rates drop severely. I recall at one time the AF O-4 board dropped to 60%.

The economy may be changing it but I am just saying what I have heard from graduates (as recent as the a few graduating this year). I never asked which company it was but I am pretty sure they weren't small corporations. It's not really generic since it does happen although it might not be as common now since as you pointed out, the economy is changing things.

 

[raimius]

It also depends what AFSC you have.

In '07 I met an A1C who had already been offered a $100K job, because companies wanted someone who knew how his AFSC (contracting) worked.
Security Forces probably wouldn't get the same type of offer!

 

[Pima]

I agree.

For example, if you are going to be an interpreter regarding Persian or Chinese languages, you betcha they will have a job for you. There just aren't enough people with that experience. In reality, a Persian major probably has many more opportunities than an engineer.

If you are going to be an A & F, don't bank on it (no pun intended).

I am not trying to be Janie RainCloud, but I think your belief is not realistic. I know multiple officers, some that were AFA grads, who had problems finding jobs. Mainly because they never planned for the day they were going to leave the military. They loved what they were doing in the military, and never realized that it did not translate into the corporate world. Some waited 8, 9 months before they landed a job.

Let's be real, how marketable is a USNA grad who went into submarines for IBM if they did not use their time wisely in the military to build their resume...i.e. job positions and getting a Masters. IBM will not take them on because of the USNA ring, but because their job centered around computers and they got a Masters.

How about the USMA grad who opted for Special Forces. Not a lot of companies need a Special Forces guy on their team. What they need is a CFO or a Systems analyst. If you spend the whole time being the best in Special Forces, but your only job was scheduling jumps, and you did not get a Masters, that ring means nothing. Same for Helo's...not a huge demand for a helo pilot that worked in life support, but there is a demand for helo pilots that worked in the weapons shop.

Granted, companies like Lockheed, Pratt & Whitney, Raytheon, SAIC, Rand, etc love the military grads, but then the question is are you willing to relocate to where they are at?

SA grads will have a leg up in the defense world at the 5 yr marker, but not in the corporate world. That leg up for defense companies, again is not about your ring, but more based on your military experience AND your security clearance. Your military experience will not be theoretical, but reality. You will know what works in the field and what doesn't. The avg college grad does not have that insight.

I just don't want people to believe that just because you have a ring, it means you are the pick of the litter. In the real world a lot more goes into the equation, than just your undergrad when you are looking for mid-management positions. If you decide to stay for 20, than it becomes even more important to plot your career, because you are not looking for mid-management, you are looking for SR Mgmt. Bullet always kept that sight in his view, he strategically planned his career. As I have stated, he called the ball because people were actively recruiting him. He could have stayed much longer. He retired at the same time as 8 other fliers at our base. The ones that did not become busdrivers in the sky, landed up taking lower level jobs because all they ever wanted to do was fly. Financially the difference is huge! Their retirement and current job keeps them at the same pay check as they were in the military. For us, his retirement check is pure gravy!

 

[bruno]

SA grads will have a leg up in the defense world at the 5 yr marker, but not in the corporate world. That leg up for defense companies, again is not about your ring, but more based on your military experience AND your security clearance. Your military experience will not be theoretical, but reality. You will know what works in the field and what doesn't. The avg college grad does not have that insight.
In the real world a lot more goes into the equation, than just your undergrad when you are looking for mid-management positions. If you decide to stay for 20, than it becomes even more important to plot your career, because you are not looking for mid-management, you are looking for SR Mgmt.

I don't think I would agree with this completely. Having retired from the Army and and being a General Manager in a very large multinational manufacturing company- my perspective is a little different than that. For example I believe that you will be a very competitve person in industry at the 5 year mark- because your peers will still be pretty inexperienced and you will be able to demonstrate that you have had a fair amount of responsiblity compared to them.
When you get to the 20-30 year mark though, in my opinion you will not walk into any Senior Management job unless it's in the Defense industry because you have never made a payroll, designed and managed a capital project the way industry looks at them; developed a budget forecast and lived with it (and DoD budgets are laughable when you discover what the rest of the world means by the term- you live with it and measure everything as a variance to budget, and money doesn't move from account to account!) - which is why there are som many retired officers in the Defense contracting world. Unless you retire as a General Officer- you aren't gonna be the VP of anything initially after retirement- you will probably be behind your contemporaries until you prove yourself, because at that level you will find that they want relevant experience in organizations doing the same kind of things or else you shot thru the organization itself. (And it will rather disconcerting at first to discover that the VP is a lot younger than you but has a Harvard MBA and was a consultant for 5 years before getting hired by your organization).

So is your ring valuable or not? Sure is- because there is a great network out there that will allow you to crack the door open and get you in front of the right people with your resume when hiring decisions are being made. Shooting resumes out blind is about as hit or miss a method of getting hired as you can find. Most people get decent jobs because they know who and when to talk with someone in the organization- and that is where your academy or service connections come into play. Most resumes don't get past the admin people who are screening them- so if you can get in front of the hiring manager - you then get the chance to demonstrate just how broad and relevant your experience really is. The SA old boy net (or the VMI net or Texas A&M connection etc etc...) will give you a shot at distinguishing your resume from the 50 others that they may see. A picture may be worth a thousand words- but an in- person interview with the person who is actually the decision maker is worth a lot more than that (They still may not hire you if you can only speak in "Militarese" or if every 5th word is a vulgarity or you can't manage to turn 20 years of being an infantryman into relevant operations management experience).
Finally- like Pima- IMO there is not a chance in the world that someone who tell s you that you have a job 5 years from now is being honest unless it's Dad and he owns the company. The economy is really lousy ; companies in every industry are looking one quarter out and being very cautious about hiring anyone & there are a lot of highly qualified people out there looking for work. Nobody will hand you anything regardless of where you went to school, but especially for a junior officer- you will have some advantages and a network to help you exercise those advantages. Most Junior officers learn quickly how to deal with stress, priorities, make decisions and WORK as long as it takes to accomplish any mission given them. You would be amazed at how many of your peers at the 5 year mark haven't learned those attributes yet.

 

[BeatNavy]

They still may not hire you if ... you can't manage to turn 20 years of being an infantryman into relevant operations management experience.

That's something I worry about at times, but won't having a graduate degree in the right field show you have the skills to do the job properly?

 

[bruno]

That's something I worry about at times, but won't having a graduate degree in the right field show you have the skills to do the job properly?

No- you misunderstand- what I'm telling you is that you can get hired with the skills and experience that you have acquired and you will have some good networking contacts to help you do so- but you have to think about translating your skills and experiences into something that they can understand and be realistic about your immediate hiring goals. As a Junior Officer youare IMO actually ahead of your peers in experience. As a career officer- You should not think that because you are retiring after Commanding a 700 man Infantry Battalion you should expect to immediately walk into a job as a VP with a corporation because that is what you perceive as being equivalent to your former responsibilities. That is not realistic- you have experience but not direct relevant experience compared to the people who have spent 25 years in that Industry. Does that mean you won't get hired? Not at all- a military career does give you lots of relevant experience but you will generally have to demonstrate that your time has given you all the skills that they need. My comment about a 20 year infantry career is actually an example of how you do translate those experiences. Nobody else in the world hires someone to move large numbers of people slowly thru the mountains while someone is shooting at them- but lots of them do look for people who can plan, coordinate and execute complex multinational operations. With your time in the military you should be well prepared to think and present well in person - so the advantage you may well find from leveraging your SA/military networking connections is you will get that chance to sell yourself rather than just be another paper or electronic resume to be discarded by HR.