Class of 2020 passes Point of No Return

coachkarl

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Most of the Class of 2020 signed their 2 for 7s this week. Amazing how much stress this generated ... one of DS's best buddies failed a final shot at the PRT right before the Reform and will separate from the Academy. Texted back and forth with a Mid Mom for a few hours ... her son is agonizing over signing. Lots of doubts. He was given a few extra days to think it over.

It got real serious real fast this week.
 
It does get serious for many. It tends to really hit those that tend to have academic or PRT issues as they are hanging on and they know the repercussions if they miss the mark going forward. There are also some who struggle with, ‘Is this for me?’ I would say there really aren’t that many at this point who question that part. We lost one in company due to that. He actually left USNA, went to NYU and enlisted in the reserves. We didn’t have the big ceremony they do now. We got handed the papers the night before class started went back to our rooms with our buddies, signed them and celebrated with Dahlgren Pizza. For the large majority, it was rather uneventful, we were comfortable with our decision. Best of luck to your DS. 2/C year is definitely a fun one and a kick in the pants too.
 
Wow it's really real like that? I'll admit I didn't here about the 2 for 7 signing until a couple days ago, I didn't know it was such a huge deal :p
 
In our day, no one signed anything. It was "understood" that, once you attended your first day of class as a 2/C, you had made the commitment. We had a big party to celebrate.

However, in our day, there also wasn't much effort made to get people to pay back their tuition if they were separated after commitment. As I remember it, those separated for academics were typically just sent home, unless there was a belief they had intentionally tanked. Those separated for conduct or honor were supposed to be sent to the Fleet as enlisted. Not sure how often this actually happened.
 
In our day, no one signed anything. It was "understood" that, once you attended your first day of class as a 2/C, you had made the commitment. We had a big party to celebrate.

However, in our day, there also wasn't much effort made to get people to pay back their tuition if they were separated after commitment. As I remember it, those separated for academics were typically just sent home, unless there was a belief they had intentionally tanked. Those separated for conduct or honor were supposed to be sent to the Fleet as enlisted. Not sure how often this actually happened.
Same era here - USMA. In our day no one separated for academics or other honorable reasons was hounded to pay back tuition or serve in enlisted ranks.
 
My son and the rest of his 2020 class just had their Cow Affirmation at West Point last night. In the beginning of the summer when he got home after finishing his second year he made a few comments like "if I reaffirm". We started wondering, and pried a little. He never said he wouldn't reaffirm, just made a couple comments. He isn't a top student academically, but is "comfortably average", for lack of a better term (low B GPA), and he is solid in all other respects. It is just that the grind there wears a kid out. Can really be compared to a low security prison for some. He loves West Point in most respects, but hates it in a few. The end of an academic year is probably a bad time to ask an academy kid about reaffirming. So they at least give reaffirmation a thought before committing.
 
It tends to really hit those that tend to have academic or PRT issues as they are hanging on and they know the repercussions if they miss the mark going forward

> Do they hound seperated Midshipmen for repayment now ? My recollection is same as '85's --as long as you didn't do something stupid like try to fail out, or honor and conduct offenses, there was no repayment obligation. Perhaps there was a Reserve enlisted obligation, but I knew a handful who got Ac Boarded the last two years and didn't have any payback.

In our day, no one signed anything. It was "understood" that, once you attended your first day of class as a 2/C, you had made the commitment. We had a big party to celebrate.
Thanks ... all these "signing the paper" comments had me wondering if I missed something. I thought perhaps it was the contents of the very large "2 for 7" mugs that caused me to forget signing some paper.
 
No, we definitely didn't sign anything. I recall one of my company mates didn't attend class for several days at the beginning of 2/C year as he decided whether to stay (he stayed). So, we considered it at least a moral obligation and there was certainly the "threat"/expectation that, if you left after starting classes 2/C yera, you'd be sent to the enlisted ranks for the number of years equal to what you'd spent at USNA. As noted, I don't recall this actually happening to anyone, though it probably did at least some of the time.

From what I've heard anecdotally, today they really do hound you. I believe that, if separated honorably (academics, PRT, performance -- anything other than honor and criminal activity), you have 3 options. Pay back the money. Join the enlisted ranks and pay back X years (not sure how many). Complete college on your own, join the officer ranks through OCS, and pay back X years (not sure how many).

I would expect (but don't know) that, if separated "dishonorably," the only option would be repayment. I also would expect that separation for medical reasons would not incur any repayment obligation.

My guess is that sometime between when we graduated and today, two things coincided. Someone decided that there should be some "teeth" in the position that USNA was "free" for two years but after that, there were consequences to leaving. And, when that happened, lawyers got involved and decided there needed to be a contract to enforce that obligation. It is probably a better system for both sides than the uncertainty that existed in our day.
 
From the sound and pics of the "signing the scroll", etc, I think that this is more about recognizing the significance of the milestone
and not any serious contract signing because the contract was always there even when it was not officially recognized.
 
Class of 2019 Firstie at USMA recently separated for honorable reason. Given 3 options (chose #3):
  1. Pay back $180,000 (3 years at $60k/yr)
  2. Enlisted ranks for 3 years
  3. ROTC
Sad that lawyers and accountants pass judgement on those who strive valiantly, but fall short.
 
From the sound and pics of the "signing the scroll", etc, I think that this is more about recognizing the significance of the milestone
and not any serious contract signing because the contract was always there even when it was not officially recognized.

I think (a mid/parent can correct me if I'm wrong), that the 2/C sign an official contract on regular paper that lays out the obligations. The scroll signing is for ceremonial purposes only. As a legal matter, if a mid doesn't sign a contract, as a legal matter it could be hard to enforce the payback obligation. I agree it was there all along, but my guess is that at some point when the USN tried to enforce it, a smart lawyer said, "Show me where my client actually agreed to this." And thus the current process was born.

Sad that lawyers and accountants pass judgement on those who strive valiantly, but fall short.

As noted, the concept isn't new, merely that it is now being enforced.
 
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I don't know what it was back in the day, but current mids actually do sign an "Agreement to Serve" doc (press hard, make 3 copies..), prior to IDay, that covers this.

It also appears to kick in upon "commencement of the Second Class Academic Year", whether or not one actually attends class that day.

The other interesting thing is that it appears that a voluntary resignation by a 4/C or 3/c Mid isn't automatically accepted, rather it is "accepted when found to be in the best interests of the naval service" - so, legally, they could keep you if they want

The one caveat is that the Agreement to Serve states that the policy is "subject to change without any advance notice" so maybe that is why they are required to sign a new doc at the beginning of 2/C year.

Relevant text:
https://www.usna.edu/Admissions/PermitToReport/_files/documents/AgreementToServe.pdf
II. For Midshipmen Who Enter the Naval Academy Directly from a Civilian Status
a. I understand that if I am discharged from the Naval Academy or if my resignation therefrom is accepted, the following policies are presently applicable:
1. Fourth and Third Class Midshipmen (1st and 2nd years). Any Fourth or Third Class Midshipman who is discharged from the Naval Academy or whose resignation therefrom is accepted will be discharged from the Naval Service. (A resignation tendered by a Fourth or Third Class Midshipman will be accepted when found to be in the best interests of the naval service).
2. Second and First Class Midshipmen (3rd and 4th years)
a. A Second Class Midshipman who is discharged from the Naval Academy or whose resignation therefrom is accepted prior to the commencement of the Second Class Academic Year (which is considered to commence on the first day classes formally convene for the Fall semester) will be discharged from the Naval Service.
b. Following the commencement of the Second Class Academic Year, a Second or First Class Midshipman who is discharged from the Naval Academy or whose resignation therefrom is accepted prior to completing the course of instruction may be transferred to the reserve component of the Navy or the Marine Corps in an enlisted status and ordered to active duty for not less than (2) years, except in those cases where the midshipman is physically disqualified, unfit, or unsuited for military service in an enlisted status. In cases where the Secretary determines that the midshipman has breached his or her agreement per Section I.A. and also determines that the midshipman is unsuitable for enlisted service, the Secretary of the Navy may direct that the midshipman reimburse the Government of the United States for educational benefits received at the Naval Academy to be calculated as described in Section IV, below.​
b. I understand that the discharge and active duty obligation policies stated in Section II.A. above are subject to change without advance notice during the course of my attendance at the Naval Academy and if I am discharged from the Naval Academy or if my resignation therefrom is accepted, determinations with respect to my discharge and/or active duty obligation may be made per such revised policies in lieu of those policies in Section II.A., above.
 
The USN may have them re-sign it just to remind them on the theory they might not remember what they signed prior to I-Day. It makes sense.
 
That particular piece of paper has been in the PTR for at least 25 years, followed by the fall 2/c year re-sign.

As usna1985 says, it’s good practice to have a thoughtful and mindful signing.
 
My 2 for 7 was two years ago, and if I remember correctly, when you went up to sign you actually signed two things: one being the legal commitment to service and the other being the scroll. I believe we were provided an opportunity to read the fine print of the first document at some point on the day before signing.

The number of people that decide to leave right before signing is very low. Many who were going to leave do so at the end of youngster year and skip doing all the summer training. I think there was one girl that freaked out when they called her name to sign and ran out of Memorial Hall, but she came back with a different company and ended up signing the next day. In this day and age far more people are separated involuntarily than leave of their own accord. I would wager less than 1/3 of the people that were separated from my class over our 4 years at the Academy did so voluntary, although I don't have access to the numbers to back that up.
 
I would wager less than 1/3 of the people that were separated from my class over our 4 years at the Academy did so voluntary, although I don't have access to the numbers to back that up.

Based on what I've heard (from official sources), the #1 reason for leaving is still personal desire to leave -- though much of that attrition occurs in the first year. #2 is failing the PRT. Very, very few today are booted for academics. There is the honor/conduct/criminal activity group -- and that number can vary dramatically if, for example, there is a major incident.

In my day, some folks "voluntarily" resigned after they were hit with a major conduct violation. The thought of months of restriction, 100s of hours of room/marching tours, a D or F in conduct -- and the resulting consequences for service selection, etc., caused some to rethink whether they wanted to stay under those circumstances. So, technically, they chose to leave -- and it definitely was a voluntary decision in that they were not asked to leave. But it wasn't a decision made in a vacuum. Not sure if that still happens today.
 
I think (a mid/parent can correct me if I'm wrong), that the 2/C sign an official contract on regular paper that lays out the obligations. The scroll signing is for ceremonial purposes only. As a legal matter, if a mid doesn't sign a contract, as a legal matter it could be hard to enforce the payback obligation. I agree it was there all along, but my guess is that at some point when the USN tried to enforce it, a smart lawyer said, "Show me where my client actually agreed to this." And thus the current process was born.



As noted, the concept isn't new, merely that it is now being enforced.

My 2/C said that when they break the threshold on their first class of 2/C year is when they become obligated. Also, when I asked him how it felt to have signed he said “the same. I was already committed.” So, legalities aside, I think most 2/C themselves view it as a formality.
 
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