Competiveness rumor

UCLA traditionally receives more applications from potential freshmen than any college in the nation. This year, preliminary figures indicate that the number of applications is slightly higher than it was last year — 55,636 for 2009, compared with 55,437 for 2008.

All indications are that this year's fall freshman class at UCLA will be even stronger academically than last year's, which was superior. The average fully weighted grade-point average for freshman applicants increased to 3.89 from last year's 3.87. Nearly half of all applicants — 25,381, or 45 percent — have GPAs of 4.0 or higher.

Preliminary SAT composite test scores for freshman applicants also rose, from 1,799 last year to 1,812 in 2009. Admissions officials expect that after December SAT scores are processed, the 2009 applicants will be about 12 points above last year's level.

According to this year's acceptance letter more than 57,000 people applied.
 
Isn't a better comparison something like Berklee or Julliard, rather than the Ivies? It's a whole different set of skills. The Ivies don't ask about physical fitness, don't require leadership, and you won't get rejected for childhood asthma. I agree w/ the poster who suggested this might be a parental ego issue (and I'm a parent).

In high school, kids are all on the same path and are ranked on grades or SATs. Once they move on to the next phase, the comparisons have to end. Is a great engineer "better" than a great physician or dentist? Or a fantastic baker or BMW mechanic or author?
 
Does anyone else realize that luigi59 pulled those numbers (5000) out of the air. He said "he guesses". So until admissions posts those numbers let's stop bickering.

Luigi59 did a little more than "pull numbers from the air." :rolleyes:

My "guesses" are based on many different areas of knowledge. Perhaps if I used the word "educated hypothisis" you would accept it a little easier? :rolleyes:

The USNA does release their numbers - and the only number that matters is the number of candidates that are 3Q and have nomination, as those are the only candidates that may be selected.

And no one who does not complete an application should be considered to have "applied" - ridiculous to even count them, unless you want the "ego boost" that USNA appears to want by publishing such a ludicrous number.

BTW - What makes the SAs so "selective" is not the gross applications number, it is the "triple qualified/whole person" concept of admissions.

As I said in the other thread, there are lots of fat people at Yale and Princeton, lots of handicapped people at Harvard, and lots of people with asthma, peanut allergies, heart murmurs, and other conditions at Penn & Brown, but they're not at USNA.

And I would "guess" that 80% of the out-of-shape coach potatoes at many Ivy League schools could barely do one pullup or even approach the minimums on the CFA.

But if you actually believe that 17,000+ people applied to the US Naval Academy, I have some oceanfront Oklahoma property you may be interested in.
 
57000???? The academy actually wrote that they received that many applications?
 
I'm sure there are alot of parent's egos getting in the way with the selectivity numbers. Son's friend was accepted at an Ivy and when parent found out that my son was accepted to USNA, her response was this: "You might know more about this than I do, but I read in the Wall Street Journal that the Academies have lowered their standards for admission."

WoW!:eek:
 
At the end of the process, the goal is finding the right school for you. If the right school for you has a 100% acceptance rate, that's fine. I went to school with many people who chose a college b/c it was "the buzz" that year (or however we termed it then) or b/c it was the "most prestigious." And we're talking Ivies and the like. Most of them didn't end up graduating from the school at which they started b/c it might have been prestigious, but it wasn't the right school for them.

All schools like to trot out their "competitiveness" rankings b/c too many people base their decisions on such factors. USMA is plugging its Forbes ranking. We all know that schools that fare well in the US News rankings highlight that fact. And we adults SHOULD know that, while there are obvious advantages to selective schools, they aren't right for everyone and that millions of folks do extremely well in life with degrees from "less selective" schools.

And, BTW, I agree that the 17k number USNA uses for applicants isn't really accurate. However, one important point with USNA at least -- not all students even become official candidates. There is a weeding out process up front for those USNA considers non-competitive and, until they become competitive, they don't get a candidate number and don't, I believe, get included in the total number of applicants -- although I could be wrong about this. I don't believe civilian schools do that -- no, they're perfectly happy to take your $100 application fee and sent you a thin white envelope. :rolleyes: Not saying that completely skews the numbers, but it is a factor.
 
But if you actually believe that 17,000+ people applied to the US Naval Academy, I have some oceanfront Oklahoma property you may be interested in.

Be careful Luigi there is in fact a large naval contingent in Oklahoma, not to mention the FAA training center that has several Coast Guardsmen. Ok so ocean front property may be a stretch but we certainly have enough sailor here to make one think it is on the ocean. :wink:
 
Drexel offers free applications for those who visit. This drives up the numbers - esp since it is a one pager that you fill out while you are there and then just send in your transcript. No essay. This drives up the number. A lot of kids who apply to Drexel also apply to a number of other similar colleges as well.

I think it was the 12,097 accepted number that got me.
 
There is a weeding out process up front for those USNA considers non-competitive and, until they become competitive, they don't get a candidate number and don't, I believe, get included in the total number of applicants -- although I could be wrong about this.

They do get counted as "applications."

The official USNA numbers from the Class of 2011:

Applications - 11,999
Candidates - 8,822
Records Reviewed - 3,572 (completed applications)
 
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usna1985 makes a good point. The initial screening for the academies weeds out those who are obviously not qualified nor will be qualified academically.
All colleges have standards that applicants must meet to be qualified for admissions but applicants are generally kept in the dark as schools encourage them to apply.

Since the advent of rankings there are a number of statistics that make a college look good on the surface but are not very meaningful.
Some colleges encourage applications to drive up the number applying, hoping to increase their "selectivity". Look at Subdude's example with Drexel. Over 30,000 applications and under 3000 matriculate. But they had to accept 12,000 to get 3,000.

singaporemom - wow. perhaps there was a lack of reading comprehension?

Selectivity at the Academies has waxed and waned over the years. West Point took a huge hit during the Vietnam years. Around 1973, they could not fill the class with qualified applicants and every single qualified applicant was admitted. While those years were not particularly selective they did produce many of the Generals who are running our two wars today in Iraq and Afghanistan, including Gen. Petraeus.
Between the fall of 2002 and the fall of 2007 applications to West Point by male candidates declined about 20%. The trend is back up and male applications increased by 11% between the fall of 2007 and the fall of 2008.
 
I'm sure there are alot of parent's egos getting in the way with the selectivity numbers. Son's friend was accepted at an Ivy and when parent found out that my son was accepted to USNA, her response was this: "You might know more about this than I do, but I read in the Wall Street Journal that the Academies have lowered their standards for admission."

WoW!:eek:

Aww Singapore mom..I am sorry...whoever said that to you is just darn RUDE!! You should feel sorry for them as I feel there is certainly some deep seated insecurities in that poor persons life...Imagine, not being able to share joy of someones success with them because you feel you need to be one step (so he/she thinks) above...The Academys are top notch...and so are the ivy league schools...don't worry about the stones(rude, thoughtless words) that are cast...like I said, just have a lot of patience for the insecure, rude(snobby) people in this world, the will NEED our kindness!! Have a lovely day!! BE PROUD OF YOUR SOON TO BE MID!!!
 
: "You might know more about this than I do, but I read in the Wall Street Journal that the Academies have lowered their standards for admission."
:
My reply: The Ivy League also accepts some marginal students to enhance their stratified appearance!:rolleyes:
 
They do get counted as "applications."

The official USNA numbers from the Class of 2011:

Applications - 11,999
Candidates - 8,822
Records Reviewed - 3,572 (completed applications)

One thing I've noticed among my candidates -- the medical stuff kills a lot of applications. Kids discover they have something that either is unwaiverable or for which it will be difficult to obtain a waiver and quit mid-stream. Had it happen to 2 of my candidates this year. Not saying that has a huge impact on the numbers but it shows that trying to compare selectivity at any SA to a civilian college really is comparing apples to oranges.

The SAs really shouldn't be in that game. However, they are competing for some (not all) of the same kids for whom the Ivies and other selective colleges are also competing. If you suggest you're less "selective," you appear as less desirable. The whole thing is crazy.

Let's face it, my dog could apply to college. It would count as an application. But what would it mean? OK, PLEASE DON'T ANSWER THAT. :eek:
 
I am the original poster......here was my intent....encouragement...

If Lugi is correct.....one out of every three completed applications gets an appointment to the USNA....those are great odds, relatively speaking....

That should be very encouraging for those that are waiting to hear that have completed applications in the process....so take courage.....good news has a high chance of being right around the corner.....

The only reason I brought up the Ivy's, was not an ego thing........it would be a lot more daunting if one was waiting for an acceptance from an Ivy institution that accepts only .6-2 out of 10 of thier completed applications....
 
One thing I've noticed among my candidates -- the medical stuff kills a lot of applications. Kids discover they have something that either is unwaiverable or for which it will be difficult to obtain a waiver and quit mid-stream. Had it happen to 2 of my candidates this year. Not saying that has a huge impact on the numbers but it shows that trying to compare selectivity at any SA to a civilian college really is comparing apples to oranges.

Exactly. Couldn't have stated it better. :thumb:

usna1985 said:
The SAs really shouldn't be in that game. However, they are competing for some (not all) of the same kids for whom the Ivies and other selective colleges are also competing. If you suggest you're less "selective," you appear as less desirable. The whole thing is crazy.

Exactly. Couldn't have stated it better. :thumb:

usna1985 said:
Let's face it, my dog could apply to college. It would count as an application. But what would it mean? OK, PLEASE DON'T ANSWER THAT. :eek:

Very well. :cool:
 
Thank you, Pasquinel, for that clarification. I was about to put on my psychologist hat and post what I see in all of these mental gyrations about numbers and the resulting emotional response.:wink:

What I do hope that many "professional mailbox stalkers" get out of this is the encouragement that Pasquinel originally meant for them to take away from this thread. Hang in there! It is still just mid-March. Happy St. Patrick's Day, btw.:w00t:
 
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I have found this thread very interesting. I do not work in the USNA Admissions Office - but, do work in a college admissions office - and in terms of "competitiveness" of the USNA vs any other college/university (with the exception of other service academies) - 2 very important things must be taken into account;

1.) Nomination process.

USNA - like the other service academies - except for USCGA - require a two step enrollment process - Nomination and offer of acceptance. Those two steps are required for an appointment to the USNA. Most of you all know that. What you may not know - is what I found out while serving on my congressional district's nomination committee...there are some very good students out there - who do not earn a nomination.

2.) Service.

The USNA is called a "Service Academy" - because USNA graduates SERVE our nation upon graduation.

In my profession as a college admissions officer - I have come to understand that the vast majority of high school students have no clue about what they want to study. They do not have an idea of what career they may be interested in after graduation.

They should not be expected to know.

High school students who go through the process of nomination/appointment are confronted by the realization that - if offered an appointment - they would not just be choosing which college they will be attending...they will be choosing to serve our nation.

The majority of high school students would either not be qualified (physically, mentally) to serve our nation as a commissioned officer - or would ever be interested in serving - even if qualified.

That is where the "competitiveness" comes into play. As opposed to most colleges/universities - students who go through the nomination/application process - have already self-selected themselves away from their peers. As the president of my academy (who is a USNA graduate) likes to say - they have decided to try to take "the road less travelled."

Due to the fact that USNA applicants must go through the Nomination process AND must review their own persnal desire to serve our nation - when total number of applicants vs accepts gets shared/compared - let's say from UCLA vs USNA - it is not comparing apples and oranges - it is comparing apples and elephants.

It is my sincere hope that all students who have a sincere interest in serving our nation get to do so - either at a service academy or through some other road similarly less travelled.

Fuji
 
there are some very good students out there - who do not earn a nomination.

Very true. I have 3 LOA candiates this year w/o noms. All exceptional candidates but, in our geographic area, there is an excess of exceptional candidates. I would venture to say that these candidates are very competitive for Ivy league and similar schools -- and may, unfortunately (for USNA), end up at one of them.
 
I have found this thread very interesting. I do not work in the USNA Admissions Office - but, do work in a college admissions office - and in terms of "competitiveness" of the USNA vs any other college/university (with the exception of other service academies) - 2 very important things must be taken into account;

1.) Nomination process.

USNA - like the other service academies - except for USCGA - require a two step enrollment process - Nomination and offer of acceptance. Those two steps are required for an appointment to the USNA. Most of you all know that. What you may not know - is what I found out while serving on my congressional district's nomination committee...there are some very good students out there - who do not earn a nomination.

2.) Service.

The USNA is called a "Service Academy" - because USNA graduates SERVE our nation upon graduation.

In my profession as a college admissions officer - I have come to understand that the vast majority of high school students have no clue about what they want to study. They do not have an idea of what career they may be interested in after graduation.

They should not be expected to know.

High school students who go through the process of nomination/appointment are confronted by the realization that - if offered an appointment - they would not just be choosing which college they will be attending...they will be choosing to serve our nation.

The majority of high school students would either not be qualified (physically, mentally) to serve our nation as a commissioned officer - or would ever be interested in serving - even if qualified.

That is where the "competitiveness" comes into play. As opposed to most colleges/universities - students who go through the nomination/application process - have already self-selected themselves away from their peers. As the president of my academy (who is a USNA graduate) likes to say - they have decided to try to take "the road less travelled."

Due to the fact that USNA applicants must go through the Nomination process AND must review their own persnal desire to serve our nation - when total number of applicants vs accepts gets shared/compared - let's say from UCLA vs USNA - it is not comparing apples and oranges - it is comparing apples and elephants.

It is my sincere hope that all students who have a sincere interest in serving our nation get to do so - either at a service academy or through some other road similarly less travelled.

Fuji

Fuji,
I sure did know what I wanted to do, even though I never did it (a physical limitation). Sometimes just wanting to do something and finding it impossible, is just one of the best things that happens to you.

I really value your thoughts and eloquent way of making the point. From what USNA1985 and you have said about very good kids without nominations, I can only empathize with their disappointment.

If our nominee does not receive a USNA offer this year, he's just the kind of committed young man who will pick it up and re-apply next year, as he attends his 2nd favorite choice. He took a lot of time to research and think about applying before deciding to do so. Yeah, quite unusual.

We never encouraged or urged him to apply, but when he decided to do it, we were 150% behind him. Although I may have an inner and silent "Thank you, God." if he gets a TWE, I will also tearfully share his joy if he gets the Blue folder. Hey, I'm a VN era vet. I'm still emotional about the 57,000 KIA's, some of whom I knew well. Many more who came home are still living with that war.

Now we are in two wars with more likely to come. But if I were to be in any future combat, our son is one who I would want in my foxhole, for sure. Cool calm, thinking with vision.

Fuji, thanks again for those words of clarity.

D o N
 
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