Defense bill closes door on pro sports after graduation...

shiner

USAFA Grad, Faculty 3yrs, ALO 7yrs
10-Year Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2010
Messages
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I do think we are overdue for a policy that sticks. I also think for Cadet Andre Carter, he made a good faith decision to attend USMA and affirmed his commitment with the understanding he had the deferment option. I think anyone else who has affirmed their decision should be grandfathered, but then the door closes.
 
I do think we are overdue for a policy that sticks. I also think for Cadet Andre Carter, he made a good faith decision to attend USMA and affirmed his commitment with the understanding he had the deferment option. I think anyone else who has affirmed their decision should be grandfathered, but then the door closes.
I think that there have been several conflicting policies just during Cadet Carter's time as a candidate and at USMA.
 
just go back to the old policy and leave it, taxpayers should not be funding the education of pro athletes; you supposedly went to an academy to prepare for a military career.
They why are taxpayers funding the World Class Athlete program? I think that is a double standard. The NFL has the potential to be a good PR program for the academies so there is value in that. The reality is that most if these athletes will get cut from the pros quickly and go back to serve their time and we aren't talking about droves of cadets or midshipmen here.

The only statement I don't like is that Carter's life goal is to play in the NFL. Then why did he go to USMA? I totally get why he'd want to try to make it in the NFL if they come knocking but if that was his goal, he could have gone a more sure route.
 
On one hand we talk about what the sports programs bring to the academies. On the other hand we talk about the limitations the programs have in competing with top programs.

It seems worthwhile to defer for top athletes pursuing the pros. Especially for someone like this guy who has a legitimate chance at a career.
 
The NDAA prohibition impacting Cadet Carter seems like the natural backlash to what Congress likely saw as a PR fiasco resulting from Ens. Kinley's situation. A shame that the rules keep shifting. Given the continual shifts, any Cadet or Midshipmen candidates with a real desire to turn pro should just stay away from a Service Academy.

Anything stopping Cadet Carter from out processing if he is selected in the draft and simply paying off his tuition obligations with sums received from his contract? That would be an unfortunate look for the Service Academies.
 
There are two choices for USMA/USNA/USAFA football programs:
  1. Recruit top athletes and provide a path to the NFL for those with sufficient talent
  2. Compete at a level appropriate to the talent recruited - D3 or maybe stick to a strict Ivy League type schedule
A third choice of getting embarrassed at a more competitive D1 level is not acceptable and an embarrassment to the SA's and the military.

In any case burying the change without debate in a funding bill is disgraceful.
 
On one hand we talk about what the sports programs bring to the academies. On the other hand we talk about the limitations the programs have in competing with top programs.

It seems worthwhile to defer for top athletes pursuing the pros. Especially for someone like this guy who has a legitimate chance at a career.
I agree with this. What an ambassador for not only a SA, but for the military in general. Especially in times of difficulties with recruiting and retention from the current times of transfer portals and NIL’s.

What’s wrong with deferring, and eventually serving, and spreading military goodwill during their football tenure.
 
A couple of notes:
-DTM 19-011 "Military Service Academy Graduates Seeking to Participate in Professional Sports" (https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dtm/DTM-19-011.PDF) expired on 8 NOV 22. Therefore, as it stands, this policy is no longer in effect (it could easily be renewed if SECDEF Austin were to re-sign and Congress does not pass legislation). The Secretary of Defense is the approval authority for nominations made in accordance with this DTM.

-Since DTM 19-011 was not extended, the policy rolls back to DODI 1322.22 (https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/132222p.pdf), however, this instruction was never updated per direction in the DTM. As it would currently stand, the Assistant SECDEF for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (ASD[MR&A]) approves or disapproves requests to release a cadet or midshipman prior to the completion of 2 years of active service. See PDF page 17: "Officers appointed from cadet or midshipman status will not be voluntarily released from active duty principally to pursue a professional sports activity with the potential of public affairs or recruiting benefit to the DoD during the initial 2 years of active commissioned service."

A process has already been in place where two years of service was required - it had been codified in DODI 1322.22. President Trump issued a directive to DoD to change the guidance in 2019. I'm certain there was still some inconsistencies in approving requests to leave prior to the 2 years, but that would have been a decision that came from OSD and not the Services.

So the legislation being proposed of serving a minimum two years, essentially codifies the current DODI 1322.22.

My view:
1. What is the actual public affairs/recruiting benefit? How many enlistees or officer candidates had their INITIAL interest sparked by a SA alumni turned pro-football player? We have many public affairs/recruiting tools, I have to imagine this isn't the top of the list. Bottom line - is there really a benefit DoD is getting and is the juice worth the squeeze? We talk about analytics in football all the time - show me the data (if it exists). Also, what message is being transmitted for a SA grad who goes right to the NFL without serving time - does that just continue to beat the wrong message of "maybe that can be me - play football at a SA and then go pro." In the past we have had a handful who have served their time and then went pro.

2. Probably one of the few times my view point will differ from CaptMJ. I don't believe that the deal is done in good faith -- there is never a guarantee when a policy says "may" - From DTM 19-011: "The Secretaries of the Military Departments may submit nominations for exceptionally talented Military Service Academy cadet or midshipman athletes to the Office of the USD(P&R) for consideration of a delay in tendering an appointment as a commissioned officer in accordance with this DTM. This authority may not be further delegated." Therefore, there is no guarantee of going pro and this policy is written in black and white for everyone to read, including Carter. Unless ASD P&R/MR&A (depending on which policy you are reviewing) said they were going to approve, nothing was promised by DoD. I also can't imagine anyone in the chain of command was making a recommendation decision when Carter entered his first day of his third year. Therefore, there was more than just minimal risk of staying at USMA and expecting to play pro-football. Lastly, if there were any promises/guarantees made, then it is on the Army chain of command, including the football coaches, to own...their job should be to explain the possibilities and risks, not provide promises/guarantees when the approval authority is not at their level. And this applies to all Service Academies - not just West Point. While being offered to play at the next level is a great opportunity and recognition of talent, this should feel like a "cherry on top" and not the "rug being pulled out" - the number one mission/goal/reason for SA is to commission officers to serve in their designated Service...again something known when you accept an appointment and re-affirmed on the first day of the third year.

Another mention from the article:
-Carter stayed his last two years out of loyalty --- to who? West Point Football or because he really wants to serve???
-"If the rules had been different, then he would have gone a different route" - so I go back to who told him that he was guaranteed to play pro-football entering his third year (way prior to any of Congressional legislation)?
-Monken says we should do what is right - shouldn't that mean being perfectly honest and explaining the options and risk (sounds like something we already do often in the military). If promises/guarantees were made or strongly implied, than what is right is to take ownership.
-Carter is upset of uncertainty; the military is usually precise - those who have served know that uncertainty is part of being in the military - Semper Gumby.
Reading this article makes me wonder how much emphasis on service was discussed with Carter and Carter's family.

The whole "still wants to serve" argument doesn't jive either - as mentioned in an earlier post, most peter out early or will either stay long enough or get injured and then what - they serve as a DoD civilian - I just don't see that ever happening. Who is actually going to enforce this?

Here's the bottom line - there is a reason we call these institutions SERVICE Academies - because you go to serve the nation, others, and citizens - not with the expectation that you get to serve on a pro-sports team. This equally applies across all SAs; replace Carter's name with anyone else at a SA. Everyone attending knows or reasonably should know the expectations and that there is uncertainty/risks in sacrificing your own goals for something larger than yourself.
 
A couple of notes:
-DTM 19-011 "Military Service Academy Graduates Seeking to Participate in Professional Sports" (https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dtm/DTM-19-011.PDF) expired on 8 NOV 22. Therefore, as it stands, this policy is no longer in effect (it could easily be renewed if SECDEF Austin were to re-sign and Congress does not pass legislation). The Secretary of Defense is the approval authority for nominations made in accordance with this DTM.

-Since DTM 19-011 was not extended, the policy rolls back to DODI 1322.22 (https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/132222p.pdf), however, this instruction was never updated per direction in the DTM. As it would currently stand, the Assistant SECDEF for Manpower and Reserve Affairs (ASD[MR&A]) approves or disapproves requests to release a cadet or midshipman prior to the completion of 2 years of active service. See PDF page 17: "Officers appointed from cadet or midshipman status will not be voluntarily released from active duty principally to pursue a professional sports activity with the potential of public affairs or recruiting benefit to the DoD during the initial 2 years of active commissioned service."

A process has already been in place where two years of service was required - it had been codified in DODI 1322.22. President Trump issued a directive to DoD to change the guidance in 2019. I'm certain there was still some inconsistencies in approving requests to leave prior to the 2 years, but that would have been a decision that came from OSD and not the Services.

So the legislation being proposed of serving a minimum two years, essentially codifies the current DODI 1322.22.

My view:
1. What is the actual public affairs/recruiting benefit? How many enlistees or officer candidates had their INITIAL interest sparked by a SA alumni turned pro-football player? We have many public affairs/recruiting tools, I have to imagine this isn't the top of the list. Bottom line - is there really a benefit DoD is getting and is the juice worth the squeeze? We talk about analytics in football all the time - show me the data (if it exists). Also, what message is being transmitted for a SA grad who goes right to the NFL without serving time - does that just continue to beat the wrong message of "maybe that can be me - play football at a SA and then go pro." In the past we have had a handful who have served their time and then went pro.

2. Probably one of the few times my view point will differ from CaptMJ. I don't believe that the deal is done in good faith -- there is never a guarantee when a policy says "may" - From DTM 19-011: "The Secretaries of the Military Departments may submit nominations for exceptionally talented Military Service Academy cadet or midshipman athletes to the Office of the USD(P&R) for consideration of a delay in tendering an appointment as a commissioned officer in accordance with this DTM. This authority may not be further delegated." Therefore, there is no guarantee of going pro and this policy is written in black and white for everyone to read, including Carter. Unless ASD P&R/MR&A (depending on which policy you are reviewing) said they were going to approve, nothing was promised by DoD. I also can't imagine anyone in the chain of command was making a recommendation decision when Carter entered his first day of his third year. Therefore, there was more than just minimal risk of staying at USMA and expecting to play pro-football. Lastly, if there were any promises/guarantees made, then it is on the Army chain of command, including the football coaches, to own...their job should be to explain the possibilities and risks, not provide promises/guarantees when the approval authority is not at their level. And this applies to all Service Academies - not just West Point. While being offered to play at the next level is a great opportunity and recognition of talent, this should feel like a "cherry on top" and not the "rug being pulled out" - the number one mission/goal/reason for SA is to commission officers to serve in their designated Service...again something known when you accept an appointment and re-affirmed on the first day of the third year.

Another mention from the article:
-Carter stayed his last two years out of loyalty --- to who? West Point Football or because he really wants to serve???
-"If the rules had been different, then he would have gone a different route" - so I go back to who told him that he was guaranteed to play pro-football entering his third year (way prior to any of Congressional legislation)?
-Monken says we should do what is right - shouldn't that mean being perfectly honest and explaining the options and risk (sounds like something we already do often in the military). If promises/guarantees were made or strongly implied, than what is right is to take ownership.
-Carter is upset of uncertainty; the military is usually precise - those who have served know that uncertainty is part of being in the military - Semper Gumby.
Reading this article makes me wonder how much emphasis on service was discussed with Carter and Carter's family.

The whole "still wants to serve" argument doesn't jive either - as mentioned in an earlier post, most peter out early or will either stay long enough or get injured and then what - they serve as a DoD civilian - I just don't see that ever happening. Who is actually going to enforce this?

Here's the bottom line - there is a reason we call these institutions SERVICE Academies - because you go to serve the nation, others, and citizens - not with the expectation that you get to serve on a pro-sports team. This equally applies across all SAs; replace Carter's name with anyone else at a SA. Everyone attending knows or reasonably should know the expectations and that there is uncertainty/risks in sacrificing your own goals for something larger than yourself.
I appreciate the detailed research that highlights the layers of decisions, policies, instructions, etc., around this, which muddies the waters. You know I am fond of posting primary source material!

My reasoning was probably too simplistic, making a mental comparison to the various military retirement plans. If you came into the military as of X date, you are eligible for the retirement pay plan in effect as of that date, no matter if the retirement pay plan and associated calculations changed during your time in uniform. I was fortunate enough to come on active duty for the full 50% of retired pay at 20 years/75% at 30 plan, which was succeeded by another plan and then another, but I knew I would get the plan I came in on, as each successive plan has eroded overall retirement pay.

If a clearcut established policy, properly “adminned,” was in effect when he made his decision to affirm, I stil lean toward honoring that, though in general I think people should go do their service. If the policy is written in jello, that’s another thing.
 
I appreciate the detailed research that highlights the layers of decisions, policies, instructions, etc., around this, which muddies the waters. You know I am fond of posting primary source material!

My reasoning was probably too simplistic, making a mental comparison to the various military retirement plans. If you came into the military as of X date, you are eligible for the retirement pay plan in effect as of that date, no matter if the retirement pay plan and associated calculations changed during your time in uniform. I was fortunate enough to come on active duty for the full 50% of retired pay at 20 years/75% at 30 plan, which was succeeded by another plan and then another, but I knew I would get the plan I came in on, as each successive plan has eroded overall retirement pay.

If a clearcut established policy, properly “adminned,” was in effect when he made his decision to affirm, I stil lean toward honoring that, though in general I think people should go do their service. If the policy is written in jello, that’s another thing.
Sidetrack question: I haven’t paid attention to retirement. If my son stays 20 years, he would get 40% and 60% after 30? Plus thrift savings matches?
 
Sidetrack question: I haven’t paid attention to retirement. If my son stays 20 years, he would get 40% and 60% after 30? Plus thrift savings matches?
Off you go to the gouge. This came into effect after I retired, so I am not up on all detail. It brought in TSP matching and the opportunity to leave before 20 with some decent savings. Hence the “blended” - options if you stayed to full statutory retirement, options if you leave before 20. It used to be if you got out at 19 years, 364 days, you got zip.

Military were finally allowed to put money into the TSP in the early 2000’s. I was able to take advantage of that and piled the max in.


Apologies to all for going off-topic. Military retirement is always a good topic for its own thread.
 
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If a clearcut established policy, properly “adminned,” was in effect when he made his decision to affirm, I stil lean toward honoring that, though in general I think people should go do their service. If the policy is written in jello, that’s another thing.

There was a policy in place requiring USD P&R approval per the DTM. Assuming Congress never would have included this requirement in the defense bill, approval was still required by USD P&R and if USD P&R were to say "no" (which is always a possibility), he would have had to serve. The point being, continuing to attend USMA and play pro-football still incurred risk - risk that the request could be disapproved. Just like incoming and outgoing COs/Commanders - decisions can change by person or even the same person from one year to the next. The policy wasn't all drafted pro-athletes are automatically approved - if that was the case, I would be in complete agreement and grandfathering should occur. There should have been a discussion that the Secretary of the Army or USD P&R could decide not to nominate or approve any more requests under the DTM - thus, going back to the 2 year requirement would have been insignificant. The one thing I know, if I am not the approval authority or decision maker, I don't ever tell anyone they are guaranteed a certain outcome - because once you do and it goes the other direction, in my opinion, that individual owns the problem and it creates more problems - like it was discussed in the article. My two cents and bacon strips.
 
Why not give SA grads who get drafted into pro sports the option to either (1) defer their service commitment until after their pro sports career ends (the average pro sports career for anyone is not necessarily very long), or (2) pay back the government for the cost of their education? There will likely never be a large number of SA grads drafted. So this isn't really a large problem anyway. Wouldn't this arrangement be good for everyone?
 
I do think we are overdue for a policy that sticks. I also think for Cadet Andre Carter, he made a good faith decision to attend USMA and affirmed his commitment with the understanding he had the deferment option. I think anyone else who has affirmed their decision should be grandfathered, but then the door closes.
Fairness prevailed and it seems an amendment was passed last evening to permit any Mid or Cadet who joined before 2021 to be granted a waiver. Those after need to choose whether to affirm and serve or take their chances at another institution and a possible pro career. We can debate the pros and cons but the rationale of the congressman (an ROTC combat vet I believe) is (paraphrasing - yes with quotation marks - this is not an English essay) "The Service Academies mission is to produce war fighters; not professional athletes." You can debate that all you want, but now that there seems to be a clear line that is fair. As for the morale argument, the SAs do not appear confident enough to test that statement as attendance at home games is mandatory. If football was such a morale booster, attendance would be voluntary and the entire Corps/Brigade would voluntarily attend. Would like to see that tried. As to service over a pro career, Pete Dawkins has lived an amazing life when he chose to serve over being a top 5 draft pick. Pat Tillman after 9-11. The list goes on in athletics. If not athletically inclined for inspiration of service over self, there's always Elvis and Jimmy Stewart for inspiration of those at the very top of their professions who choose to serve.
 
New this morning, a provision has been added to the pending omnibus bill allowing for cadets playing under the previous service deferral policy to receive grandfathered exemptions under the new policy. The omnibus is expected to pass this week and could be signed as soon as Friday.

NFL draft path cleared for Andre Carter II due to bill provision
Putting aside the solution, it is good to see a problem identified and solved rapidly by Congress. I'm sure this is not unprecedented, but it doesn't seem typical. The SA sports programs will be operating under a clear rule moving forward and nobody should affirm if professional sports are their first priority.
 
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