Do (TV show) 'JAG-style' military careers in the US Navy actually exist?

Saranoya

Saranoya

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I know I'm very late to ask a question like this, since it is sparked by a TV series that premiered almost 30 years ago, but ... bear with me, if you will.

I have a 14-year-old daughter who was born in the US to foreign parents (but has US citizenship). She's being raised in Western Europe (in our home contry), but has expressed an interest in becoming a military officer, and is considering doing that in the US. Compared to where we live now, the options for someone who aspires to a military career at sea are virtually limitless over there.

We have (many versions of) the TV show NCIS in syndication here. She likes to watch the occasional episode of that. I've considered pointing her towards JAG as well, although it's old. But before I do, I'd like to know how 'true to life' it is.

In my experience (graduated from a service academy in my home country, and served for 20 years as a helo pilot in our military), careers like JAG protagonist Harmon Rabb's (fully qualified naval aviator, barred from further flying during his first carrier tour due to sudden-onset night blindness, then became a JAG lawyer) are virtually non-existent. A pilot who became medically unfit, even after he was fully trained, would be more likely to get a medical pension or an honrable discharge than an opportunity to go to university on the military's dime all over again. I won't even mention the fact that Harm, after a few years, turns out to have been "misdiagnosed", briefly goes back to serving as an aviator, then decides he'd rather be at JAG after all, but keeps 'accidentally' ending up in all kinds of military airframes anyway. I'll assume that's just Hollywood theatrics.

But. Graduating USNA, being trained as a pilot, and then pivoting to JAG (which I assume implies law school on the Navy's dime), before or after ADSO ... is that real? There's also an Admiral (Judge Advocate General) who started out as a SEAL, and a former submariner turned Judge Advocate. I'm inclined to think that's too many versions of what's essentially the same story on one TV show to be entirely fictional. Am I wrong?
 
Saranoya said:
I know I'm very late to ask a question like this, since it is sparked by a TV series that premiered almost 30 years ago, but ... bear with me, if you will.

I have a 14-year-old daughter who was born in the US to foreign parents (but has US citizenship). She's being raised in Western Europe (in our home contry), but has expressed an interest in becoming a military officer, and is considering doing that in the US. Compared to where we live now, the options for someone who aspires to a military career at sea are virtually limitless over there.

We have (many versions of) the TV show NCIS in syndication here. She likes to watch the occasional episode of that. I've considered pointing her towards JAG as well, although it's old. But before I do, I'd like to know how 'true to life' it is.

In my experience (graduated from a service academy in my home country, and served for 20 years as a helo pilot in our military), careers like JAG protagonist Harmon Rabb's (fully qualified naval aviator, barred from further flying during his first carrier tour due to sudden-onset night blindness, then became a JAG lawyer) are virtually non-existent. A pilot who became medically unfit, even after he was fully trained, would be more likely to get a medical pension or an honrable discharge than an opportunity to go to university on the military's dime all over again. I won't even mention the fact that Harm, after a few years, turns out to have been "misdiagnosed", briefly goes back to serving as an aviator, then decides he'd rather be at JAG after all, but keeps 'accidentally' ending up in all kinds of military airframes anyway. I'll assume that's just Hollywood theatrics.

But. Graduating USNA, being trained as a pilot, and then pivoting to JAG (which I assume implies law school on the Navy's dime), before or after ADSO ... is that real? There's also an Admiral (Judge Advocate General) who started out as a SEAL, and a former submariner turned Judge Advocate. I'm inclined to think that's too many versions of what's essentially the same story on one TV show to be entirely fictional. Am I wrong?
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I actually know many of my USNA classmates who were pilots, SWOs or Submariners who became lawyers. What all of them had in common was that they went to law school AFTER they'd left the Navy/Marine Corps. Many continued to serve in the Reserves while working as lawyers. One of them is currently the General Counsel of the Department of the Navy. Another, who was my XO when I held my first command became a corporate lawyer for one of the largest companies in the world (where we'd both worked as Engineers at one point). I don't think that any of them served as JAGs though.
Senior Staff Corps officers who started off as line officers are not uncommon though. Another classmate who was a SWO, left, became a minister and then came back as a Chaplain and eventually retired as a flag officer.
 
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Many JAGs in the Navy serve as Unrestricted Line Officers before applying to be JAGS. In this situation they apply for the various programs the Navy has. They are very competitive. Most JAGs come in via Direct Appointments; meaning they went to law school then commissioned directly as JAGS. The Law Education Program is what commissioned officers usually apply to. There are limitations on years of service and pay grade to apply. It’s why you see more SWOs go this path than pilots. There is no direct path from USNA to JAG. They will have to do something else first then apply.
 
Thanks for the replies.

So URL Officer to lawyer is not that unusual a career path, but it mostly doesn't happen while on active duty. Noted.
 
Saranoya said:
Thanks for the replies.

So URL Officer to lawyer is not that unusual a career path, but it mostly doesn't happen while on active duty. Noted.
Click to expand...
Not quite - it can happen on AD, where an AD officer competitively applies for the LEP program linked below, attends law school, and then becomes an AD JAG officer. It can also happen as described above, where the officer gets out, goes to law school, reapplies to come in as a JAG, or other variations noted.

But - only a handful of officers get chosen for this each year. It is extremely competitive, and only top performers with impressive application packages are chosen. The Navy gets most of its JAG officers through direct commissioning programs straight from civilian law schools or practices.

One of our USNA midshipmen sponsor family “sons” went Surface Warfare and was an outstanding performer as a junior officer. He spent leave periods shadowing a JAG over at the Naval Legal Service Center in Norfolk, with the permission and approval of both Commanding Officers. When his ship went into the repair yard, his CO sent him on TAD orders for 30 days to the NLSO, directly assisting JAG officers at courts-martial. He had already volunteered for the collateral duty of ship’s legal officer. When it came time to apply for the LEP (below), he had his USNA degree with Honors in his major and graduated #14 in his class, an outstanding LSAT score he worked very hard for, outstanding fitness report evaluations as a SWO, exceptionslly strong endorsement from his CO, powerful letters of recommendation from the NLSO CO and senior JAGs he had done case scutwork for. He earned his LEP spot. He was paid as an AD LT while at a prestigious law school, and has gone on to success as a Navy JAG, currently a Navy captain.



Our friend Harm could have been a top-performing aviator who was selected for LEP. All that stuff about still being allowed to fly - uh, not likely - he’d have to be on flying orders, stay current in his flying hours and NATOPS qualifications. Not likely Navy air is gonna pay for his flight time (fuel, etc.) when he’s no longer in the community. And the plots were mostly ridiculous, but fun to watch. My husband, a retired naval aviator, used to howl when they would arrive on a carrier at sea wearing the “choker white” full dress uniform.
 
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Capt MJ said:
Not quite - it does happen on AD, where an AD officer competitively applies for the program linked below, attends law school, and then becomes an AD JAG.

But - only a handful of officers get chosen for this each year. It is extremely competitive, and only top performers with impressive application packages are chosen. The Navy gets most of its JAG officers through direct commissioning programs straight from civilian law schools or practices.

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Yes. I should have said: "it mostly doesn't happen while on active duty, except for the lucky (and hard-working) few who get selected into LEP".

I must say, coming myself from a culture where having served in the military is not exactly a badge of honor (more of a reaon to be looked at askance for having gotten to play with cool toys on the taxpayer's dime), I find it refreshing that so many pipelines in the US military seem to have more well-qualified candidates than they could possibly know what to do with.
 
Saranoya said:
Graduating USNA, being trained as a pilot, and then pivoting to JAG (which I assume implies law school on the Navy's dime), before or after ADSO ... is that real?
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I know several JAGs who had been other designators before switching to JAG. Is it as action packed as the show? Of course not.

The Navy can be more flexible than it seems and I'm the example of that in a lot of ways, albeit anecdotal. I started enlisted, received an NROTC scholarship after a couple of years, became a SWO(N) for almost eight years, separated into the reserves, became a Reserve sailor active on orders (CANREC), picked up Human Resources TAR (formerly FTS), and now switched back to the active side as a PMP. Not the same as the NCIS example with medical DQ but still, a rather unique career.

Exploring the flexible offerings of the Navy assumes additional risk IMO and while skill and competitiveness certainly matter, there's an added timing/luck element that assumes a larger role as well. A lot of the Navy's lateral transfers (one community from another) are used to manage manpower shortfalls, i.e., the community I'm in doesn't desperately need me but the community I'm interested in is looking to pickup X number of people at my given YG. If someone is in an undermanned community and they're interested in one that's overmanned, at least for their respective YG, there may be few or zero quotas.
 
I always wondered about that.

In the USAF we've had flying JAGs and flying Doc's...dual qualified...but it's NOT common!!

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The USAF Pilot-Physician Program - GO FLIGHT MEDICINE

The USAF Pilot Physician Program is comprised of a small team of handpicked physicians or pilots who enter the program to be dual-qualified for both jobs.
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Saranoya said:
I know I'm very late to ask a question like this, since it is sparked by a TV series that premiered almost 30 years ago, but ... bear with me, if you will.

I have a 14-year-old daughter who was born in the US to foreign parents (but has US citizenship). She's being raised in Western Europe (in our home contry), but has expressed an interest in becoming a military officer, and is considering doing that in the US. Compared to where we live now, the options for someone who aspires to a military career at sea are virtually limitless over there.

We have (many versions of) the TV show NCIS in syndication here. She likes to watch the occasional episode of that. I've considered pointing her towards JAG as well, although it's old. But before I do, I'd like to know how 'true to life' it is.

In my experience (graduated from a service academy in my home country, and served for 20 years as a helo pilot in our military), careers like JAG protagonist Harmon Rabb's (fully qualified naval aviator, barred from further flying during his first carrier tour due to sudden-onset night blindness, then became a JAG lawyer) are virtually non-existent. A pilot who became medically unfit, even after he was fully trained, would be more likely to get a medical pension or an honrable discharge than an opportunity to go to university on the military's dime all over again. I won't even mention the fact that Harm, after a few years, turns out to have been "misdiagnosed", briefly goes back to serving as an aviator, then decides he'd rather be at JAG after all, but keeps 'accidentally' ending up in all kinds of military airframes anyway. I'll assume that's just Hollywood theatrics.

But. Graduating USNA, being trained as a pilot, and then pivoting to JAG (which I assume implies law school on the Navy's dime), before or after ADSO ... is that real? There's also an Admiral (Judge Advocate General) who started out as a SEAL, and a former submariner turned Judge Advocate. I'm inclined to think that's too many versions of what's essentially the same story on one TV show to be entirely fictional. Am I wrong?
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That TV show is entirely fictional.

For the real thing watch military layers played by Kevin Bacon, Tom Cruise, Demi Moore & Kevin Pollack in the 1993 classic "A Few Good Men".

If you can "handle the truth", that is.
 
Generally, the show was absurd (but fun). Lawyers don't see that much action. Now, I suppose if one became a fighter pilot, switched to the reserves and became a lawyer on the weekdays, you could get close!
 
Forget law school after service. My son should take acting lessons.
 
The Marine Corps has a program where officers who have served 3-4 years on AD in a "normal" MOS can transition to law. If selected, that officer stays on active duty while attending the civilian law school of their choice and serves a payback on the back end.
 
There was a pilot in my squadron ...MIT engineer, got picked up for LEP and went to University of Chicago law school, and did so well Navy sent him to Northwestern (Kellog) for an MBA...all on Navy dime. He had a ton of obligated service but last I checked he was a successful business lawyer in CIVLANT.

He was the one that peaked my interest in going to law school...I followed him as Squadron Legal Officer , and after squadron tour I applied to LEP and was a second alternate. I was admitted to several schools and decided to get out of the Navy and go on my own,

No one should go to USNA with plans of going to law school (I think it may be possible out of other Service Academies), and LEP is very competitive, but certainly opportunity for someone to go to law school on their own , then get into JAG. (One of my classmates did it and had a very successful career in both private practice./in house and Reserve JAG). No, you won't get to fly plane like Harmon Rabb, but I've always thought that a JAG with wings has more credibility when advising the Admiral than a kid right of law school.
 
Agree with Old Navy BGO . . . for 99.9% of people, there are two paths involving the Navy/USMC and the law.

The first is to become an officer through whatever path you choose -- USNA, ROTC, OCS. Complete your obligation, 20 years or somewhere in between. Get out and go to law school. Become a civilian lawyer or a government lawyer (e.g., federal /state prosecutor, agency lawyer). Forget being a JAG.

The second is to graduate from a civilian college then go through a program whereby the military pays for you to attend law school in return for a service obligation (you become a JAG). One of my civilian colleagues did this, then got out after his civilian service obligation. Many years later, he is the Dean of a law school.

It is possible, but really really hard, to do it another way.

NCIS is an entirely different beast -- not many active duty officers go that route after leaving AD but it can be a great career path out of college.

As you are wisely counseling your daughter -- real life is rarely the same as depicted on TV. If it were, who would watch it? Many of the NCIS agents I came across were doing background checks for security clearances. Now that's FUN STUFF!! :)
 
Hurricane12 said:
The Marine Corps has a program where officers who have served 3-4 years on AD in a "normal" MOS can transition to law. If selected, that officer stays on active duty while attending the civilian law school of their choice and serves a payback on the back end.
Click to expand...
Yes. I believe that’s where Major Mackenzie got her law degree, on the show ;).
 
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