Dropping NROTC Scholarship to Enlist SEAL

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mattbv

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DS is currently in his freshman year of college on a navy ROTC scholarship at an ivy league — although he's loved the experience and is doing great academically, he has decided that the officer path isn't for him. After talking to many SEALs and SEAL officer he has learned that the mission set of an officer in the SEAL teams is drastically different after 2-3 operational years. With this, he's started looking into enlisting after college.

My question is regarding financial penalty and any future inconveniences when enlisting in the Navy. I'm pretty sure the 1st year "is free" in the sense tuition won't need to be paid back — is this correct? And would a DOR from NROTC negatively affect an enlistment process in the future, and more specifically the SO contract process given that it is so competitive as of late.
 
Live by the gouge, die by the gouge.

However, I’ve heard stories about MIDS quitting USNA to enlist with a BUDS contract and being denied a contract. Supposedly the contract approving authority didn’t agree with quitting a commissioning program and/or thought it showed a lack of commitment.

The story above probably isn’t true, but nonetheless your son should speak with the officers at his command as well as a recruiter before making a decision.
 
Yes, your son can walk away from NROTC definitively before day 1 of the start of his sophomore year and not owe moneys back to the Navy who covered all tuition, fees etc for his freshman year. In that sense, it is free. If he has decided he does not want to be a navy officer, then best that he does not continue. That's in-part what this first year is for - to help separate out those who truly want this path from those who thought they did, but who do not.

Recommend your DS fully look into the paths of enlisting after college including OCS v enlisted paths since he will have a 4 year degree. (and if OCS, why not just stick out NROTC)? It's unusual to my understanding to enlist with a 4 year degree but not go the OCS route - maybe others have details. Also research just how many world class athletes/ top performers/ elite warriors / amazing people scrub out and don't make through Seal training end to end ("A" school, the infamous hell week, parachute school, seal qualification training etc.). Lastly he should understand *if he doesn't already the housing quarters / housing allowance for an officer/ pay benefit gap between enlisted and officer paths, and as a counterpoint the bonuses that enlisted are eligible for that in-part closes that gap. The well may runneth deep so perhaps he's not focused on money, but when a future mrs mattbv jr wants a nice house in the right school district, and the safest minivan to transport their little angels while he's off saving the world, and it's time to buy diapers/formula, or the dog needs another 2.5k surgery... I have a brother in law who enlisted and a cousin who is an officer - they lead vastly different lifestyles. I think most seals are living their dream and don't care, but most people who want to be seals don't make it.

OK, you asked, does it look good that your son committed and then dropped from the Navy's reserve officer training, when pursuing joining a special warfare group for which unwavering commitment is their jam? where see-it-through resolve is paramount - more than almost any opportunity on earth? Probably not. I think this could be a small mark on his record that doesn't bring smiles to the command committee making the lists.

But I see a potential much higher impact risk with your son's desired path than whether he dropped NROTC. If he's at an ivy and thriving, he'll likely knock the cover off the ASVAB. Like my brother in law who rocked the ASVAB, your DS may end up slotted into a enlisted career path for which salivate for those with specific off the chart aptitudes - nuc tech, avionics tech, electronics tech, etc. vs going the (NEC) 5326 Combatant Swimmer (SEAL) enlisted or 1130 Special Warfare Officer route. The navy puts the needs of the navy first and OVER the dreams of those who sign up. Recruiters professional and military don't always paint a realistic picture. I see uphill challenge to your son's path - he should pursue it but get armed with all details/ facts he can. *Of note, I've personally taken on a few uphill challenges myself and don't regret any of the successes or failures I've had when I did - in fact I'm glad I went for it -here, just trying to highlight reality.

Like all of us -we try to help our children avoid OMG - what did I do moments of regret. Best of luck to your DS and you.
 
No, no, I disapprove.

”Any future inconveniences when enlisting in the Navy”? There would be many as the two excellent posts above outline.

My son’s initial plans to the ward room didn’t work out and he bounced around five different colleges before he graduated. Before he got there he wanted to enlist. He first wanted to be a Navy Corpsman just like dear old dad. Then it was Army SF like his Master Sergeant Uncle Arnold. Then Air Force.... I got to the point where I was about to drive him to the nearest armed forces recruitment center and tell him to get out and walk in the first office he sees with an open chair and somebody with a pen he can use to sign the contract.

My wife, his mom said, “No, I disapprove. If you still want to join the military then do it as an officer after you graduate.”

We both listened and he graduated and joined as an officer and we all lived happily ever after.
 
I would also push back against dropping out of NROTC. People on this forum before have dropped ROTC to enlist, but with the caveat that they were looking solely to get into the navy ASAP (didn't care about specific navy job, just wanted to serve ASAP) and not finish college/become an officer at all at the end.

Dropping out of NROTC to try to get into one of the hardest communities in all of the US Navy does not personally seem like a good decision to me. While I do not doubt your child's talents, even the best of the best 1) do not make it into the SEAL program at all 2) do not make it through if they do get in.

I will also echo the points from above. If your child goes to an Ivy, they are REALLY REALLY smart and could be pushed going Nuke/Subs, as is the case with many top tier navy NROTC applicants who did not want nuke/subs originally.
 
Herman_Snerd said:
It's unusual to my understanding to enlist with a 4 year degree but not go the OCS route - maybe others have details.
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That may be true of Navy. I cannot say. It's not uncommon in the Marine Corps. DS once told me his go to guys to get critical jobs done were his enlisted with college degrees.

That being said, regarding SEALS: Many apply, few are chosen. DS was in a club in his NROTC unit of guts who wanted to go the SEAL route. DS participated as a Marine just for the fitness aspect. As a result I got to know several MIDN who were selected for pre-BUDS, and BUDS. About 75% got through BUDS. Only 1 made it all the way through the program. Many dropped during EOD training. Keep in mind these guys trained doing SEAL things once a week for 4 years. I'm not sure how anyone makes it without that training, much of which has to be done as a member of a team.

Your DS is in a sure path in the Navy. He has a shot at getting selected for SEALS. Will he be busting in doors after the first few years? No. Does that make the work any less important? Does he admire Admiral McRaven? If so, he should make being that man his goal.
 
Your son is enjoying college and doing well academically. He wants to be a SEAL, but via the enlisted route and not as an officer. Has he considered a “middle” route? That is, finish college and gain that much coveted and widely respected Ivy degree. Then enlist to become a SEAL. Seems that this route would let him “have it all” with much less downside.

Play out the scenario he’s now considering: If all goes swimmingly, great. But what if he’s one of the 80% or 90% who enter with supreme confidence, superior willpower and superlative physicality who still wash out? Then what? It’s off to the fleet to finish his enlistment and maybe try again. Or maybe he decides that SEALS isn’t for him after all? No shame in that — it happens to many great ones with initially great intentions. Does he eventually return to college, but likely not at an Ivy? Has he squandered an amazing college opportunity?

Not pat answers here, and it’s his life. Sometimes with young people though, the world seems black and white, they miss the “third” way, and their teen invincibility creeps into their adult thinking. Help your son see more options and consider downsides as well as upsides.
 
I am non-military father of an Army officer who commissioned through AROTC, so take this for what its worth.

I know two young men who entered the BUD/S pipeline via enlistment. They grew up in the same good neighborhood in solid families. They went to the same high school and graduated one year apart.

Young man #1, the older, had an unremarkable HS career with little or no sports. He hated college and dropped out after Freshman year. He enlisted in the navy, much to his parents’ chagrin. They were disappointed that he was forgoing college and that he was enlisting in any branch of the military. He entered the BUD/S pipeline immediately and is a SEAL still today. His parents are proud, but his mother still can't get use to her son carrying a gun.

Young man #2 was a recruited swimmer to an NCAA D1 school, from which he graduated on time. He enlisted, seeing that as the quickest route to doing cool guy stuff. He voluntarily dropped out during Hell Week. He couldn't handle the combination of exhaustion, hunger and the ice cold Pacific Ocean. (Who can?) Fast forward several years and he was a Navy air traffic controller, hating his job and counting the days until he could get out and start his life, but not as an air traffic controller.

There are a number of lessons here, several of which are mentioned by the previous posters. To me the most important:

There is no unimpeded glide path into the SO community
The attrition rate is staggering, despite the fact that everyone shows up in good/great shape
No one can predict how he/she will respond to intense physical, mental, emotional and environmental stress--piled on all at once
I would say that while young man #2 had the advantage of superior physical conditioning, young man #1 had the advantage of making the more difficult and consequential choices--with societal and parental push back--at a critical time in his life.

I think most people would advise you that if SOAS or BUDS don't work out, your DS would be happier and more challenged meeting the needs of the Navy as an officer.

If he chooses the enlisted SEAL route, he should connect with current or former enlisted SEALs to learn everything he can...and I mean everything from what it means to lead and to follow, to how to prevent and treat blisters. I can tell you there is no way on God’s green earth that my son would be where he is today without the support he has received.

I seriously wish him the best of luck and much success!
 
mattbv said:
DS is currently in his freshman year of college on a navy ROTC scholarship at an ivy league — although he's loved the experience and is doing great academically, he has decided that the officer path isn't for him. After talking to many SEALs and SEAL officer he has learned that the mission set of an officer in the SEAL teams is drastically different after 2-3 operational years. With this, he's started looking into enlisting after college.

My question is regarding financial penalty and any future inconveniences when enlisting in the Navy. I'm pretty sure the 1st year "is free" in the sense tuition won't need to be paid back — is this correct? And would a DOR from NROTC negatively affect an enlistment process in the future, and more specifically the SO contract process given that it is so competitive as of late.
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I'll just add on to what I know from the people I know that went the SEAL route, and you and your DS can take that for what it's worth:

1) Dropped out of NROTC midway through his sophomore year (not contracted), finished his college degree, and enlisted with a SEAL contract. Made it through BUD/s and is about to finish sniper school. Reasons for why he dropped NROTC: 1) It is much easier to obtain an enlisted SEAL contract than it is an officer SEAL contract 2) He wanted the opportunity to go to sniper school, which being an officer couldn't afford him. 3) Enlisting with a degree gives him the opportunity to go to OCS if he so desired to switch to the officer corps (realizing that one day he'll probably not want to kick down doors anymore when he gets older).

2) Completed NROTC and went to BUD/s. Got recycled due to an injury, but made it through BUD/s. Don't know what he is doing right now.

3) Went to school for 3 years. Decided he didn't want anymore of it. Dropped out, enlisted, and went to BUD/s. Recycled a couple of times due to injuries. He was forced out of BUD/s due to these injuries, but was given the opportunity to switch to Navy Diver (ND). He is now a Navy Diver today. Just completed his first 5 year contract and is reenlisting for another 3 years. Deployed multiple times with EOD detachments, and is considered one of the best divers in the nation. Living happily with his wife and kid in Hawaii as we speak. Does not regret his decision to enlist one bit.

4) Completed NROTC and went to BUD/s. Currently going through BUD/s as we speak.

I've been fortunate to witness these success stories. Again, take the stories for what they're worth.
 
mattbv said:
DS is currently in his freshman year of college on a navy ROTC scholarship at an ivy league — although he's loved the experience and is doing great academically, he has decided that the officer path isn't for him. After talking to many SEALs and SEAL officer he has learned that the mission set of an officer in the SEAL teams is drastically different after 2-3 operational years. With this, he's started looking into enlisting after college.

My question is regarding financial penalty and any future inconveniences when enlisting in the Navy. I'm pretty sure the 1st year "is free" in the sense tuition won't need to be paid back — is this correct? And would a DOR from NROTC negatively affect an enlistment process in the future, and more specifically the SO contract process given that it is so competitive as of late.
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I think that your questions got answered. From what I know he can quit at this point with no payback. No it does not negatively affect his enlistment process.

If I had a dollar for every young person who had that Seal gleam in the eyes during my 40 + years as a Naval Officer, I'd have a LOT of money. . . especially if I used it to buy Gamestop last week but I digress. The first one that I met actually made it and retired as a SEAL 3 star admiral. The vast majority, never even made it to the front door of SEAL training. A very small number actually tested for it and fewer still made it through to be a Seal.

Your son wants Seals because he has "heard" that its not so much fun after their first operational tour. I'll just accept that as gospel because whether true or not, that is HIS reality that he is basing decisions on. What he is assuming though is that the environment is going to stay the same. There have been many periods in recent history when they weren't doing "cool guy" missions like those in the 'Stans and it is really not predictable how long they might continue. I'd hate to think of throwing away an Ivy League scholarship for the lure of cool guy missions that go away before he even gets there.

But hey, it's his life, YOLO and all that
 
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mattbv said:
DS is currently in his freshman year of college on a navy ROTC scholarship at an ivy league — although he's loved the experience and is doing great academically, he has decided that the officer path isn't for him. After talking to many SEALs and SEAL officer he has learned that the mission set of an officer in the SEAL teams is drastically different after 2-3 operational years. With this, he's started looking into enlisting after college.
Click to expand...
So I infer from the bolded portions that your son is contemplating 1) dropping his NROTC scholarship, 2) staying at his Ivy League school through to graduation, and 3) then enlisting in the Navy? Assuming this all to be accurate, am I correct to also assume that money is no object in this scenario? Sticker price of 3 years tuition (and only tuition) at an Ivy is at least $180k. Investing that much money into a bachelor's degree -- again, setting aside room, board, etc. -- with a plan to enlist in the military seems like, well, not a great financial decision if nothing else. So again I ask, is money no object? If it isn't, then I don't see a problem here; more power to him. Kind of like what Pat Tillman did. But very, very few people in that sort of financial situation would be so inclined, or so I suspect.
 
I know a handful of former Mids who have done this. A few things:
  • Yes, the door kicker days of officers are more limited than enlisted. That is true for any officer job or service an officer is in. You have an entire team, platoon, company, etc to kick a door down. An officer must lead, manage, communicate, direct first. Their weapon in many cases is their brain and comms system. Will they fire their guns... absolutely. SEALs can remain operational beyond 2-3 years. Most will say more until a LT or even LCDR for a larger task force effort. Something to think about... these kinds of roles are a young man's game. Meet a retired SEAL and ask how their body feels? For many, as they move out of operational roles it aligns with what their body can take. Not saying this for everyone, but its something I have watched over the years as my friends have progressed through their careers, not just as SEALs, but any combat arms type of roles.
  • Many will do this because its the only way to guarantee yourself a spot at BUD/S with a contract (still have to complete all pre-reqs like taking the PST, mentorship, obtaining a SEAL contract, boot camp and pre-BUD/S). As an officer, its a gamble, through any commissioning program. Even going to OCS, I believe in the current process, he would go to SOAS first. If he passes that, he would then go to OCS and then BUD/S. So he would still be competing for the limited spots regardless of commissioning path.
  • There are actually alot of enlisted SEALs with degrees. SEALs actively recruit at things like NCAA wrestling, swimming and water polo meets.
  • Your DS needs to really look at the data. No one goes into BUD/S thinking they won't make it, but the data says otherwise. Is your DS ready to spend 4-5 years doing whatever job the Navy gives him. This is true for the officer side or enlisted. Yes, some end up as Navy Divers, but others end up being an OS on a Destroyer or SWO. There is nothing wrong with being an OS or SWO, or any other rating/career designation in the Navy, but he has a different vision for his life and needs to understand what can/will happen if he doesn't make it to the finish line. There are more Sailors in the Navy who tried BUD/S than there are who graduate BUD/S. As others mentioned above... injuries can play a huge part in someone's ability to finish BUD/S. Remember the graduation rate for someone at BUD/S is about 25% for enlisted.
  • Pay Charts - if your DS walks from his scholarship, what kind of debt will he be taking on if he stays at school? Is he prepared to pay off those loans on E-4 pay? There are tons of specialty pays for SEALS that really help bump their pay. But, that stuff does not kick in until they graduate those schools. Those schools come with making it through BUD/S.
  • He doesn't need to make an immediate decision right now. Go to summer training and then make a decision before he sits down in his first day of class next year. Honestly over the years I have seen so many young men and women who go through either USNA or ROTC get energized to go down this path. There are pros and cons to it and should not be a quick knee jerk reaction.
 
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