Five and Dive

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GracieandSophie

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I am not sure if this is the right location for this and I'm not trying to stir up controversy. Kid recently completed the CVW at USNA and had a blast, however as a parent I was very surprised at the number of plebes and drags who are already openly saying they will five and dive, more said they will do that than didn't say they would.

I am a non military person but to me that sounds cost wise very inefficient for the Navy. I have read the recent reports about SWO attrition etc.
Am I missing out on toughness of the sacrifices of military life here as a justification for once you have served 5 years you deserve to leave?.

If I compared a Ivy league education to the Academy an Ivy league graduate would struggle to pay off that education in 5 years straight after school so why is Navy service only 5 years?. Should it be 10 or 15?

Again just surprised hearing that, I am not military so I will never understand or appreciate the commitment and hardship so I am probably reading this the wrong way.

I have learned so much from this site, thank you all!
 
The Dept of the Navy sets the pay off for each class. It has fluctuated over the decades. I think USMA even is doing a trial where some appointees were offered appointments tied to 6 year commitments last year.

The honest answer is… a Mid, especially 3/C and 4/C, have zero clue who will stay and go. At this point for them to say I will five and dive is 100% a guess and just speculation. I would chalk most if it up to a Plebe who is tired and ready to go home on leave, boasting cool kid stuff more than anything. Now that my class has many years under their belt, who stayed and went, who excelled and who was average, who made senior officer and command, it’s a total mix, that no one knows the answer until they serve.
 
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Someone else also explained before that there is built in and expected attrition…that the Navy (or any military branch) cannot absorb EVERYONE staying 40 years.
 
NavyHoops said:
The Dept of the Navy sets the pay off for each class. It has fluctuated over the decades. I think USMA even is doing a trial where some appointees were offered appointments tied to 6 year commitments last year.

The honest answer is… a Mid, especially 3/C and 4/C, have zero clue who will stay and go. At this point for them to say I will five and dive is 100% a guess and just speculation. I would chalk most if it up to a Plebe who is tired and ready to go home in leave, boasting cool kid stuff more than anything. Now that my class has many years under their belt, who stayed and went, who excelled and who was average, who made senior officer and command, it’s a total mix, that no one knows the answer to until they serve.
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That makes sense thank you. I think I may have been seeing it as kids viewing it as a free education with no real interest in military service.
I had an oversimplified view of the finances, attrition etc.
 
I chalk it up just as much as the thing to say. No one wants to be the "lifer" at this stage of the game. There is much more negative connotation to being a "lifer" than a "five and diver." Its customary and normal to complain when you are in the midst of it and express your desire to get out. Yet, look how many of us old-timers are on here speaking of how great it was?
 
There is nothing dishonorable about living up to the terms of an agreement. Five and dive is a misdirected pejorative.

Also, very few Ivy League graduates struggle to pay off debt. Ivy League schools have the resources and are very generous with scholarships based on financial need. College graduates struggling with debt generally choose schools and degrees that make no financial sense.
 
GracieandSophie said:
I am not sure if this is the right location for this and I'm not trying to stir up controversy. Kid recently completed the CVW at USNA and had a blast, however as a parent I was very surprised at the number of plebes and drags who are already openly saying they will five and dive, more said they will do that than didn't say they would.

I am a non military person but to me that sounds cost wise very inefficient for the Navy. I have read the recent reports about SWO attrition etc.
Am I missing out on toughness of the sacrifices of military life here as a justification for once you have served 5 years you deserve to leave?.

If I compared a Ivy league education to the Academy an Ivy league graduate would struggle to pay off that education in 5 years straight after school so why is Navy service only 5 years?. Should it be 10 or 15?

Again just surprised hearing that, I am not military so I will never understand or appreciate the commitment and hardship so I am probably reading this the wrong way.

I have learned so much from this site, thank you all!
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Did they say that to Kid or did you hear this directly? Either way that's a dumb thing to say for somebody whose been in the Navy for just a few days.

As a taxpayer I have no problem with the obligation being five or six years. The question however of the efficiency and effectiveness and even the need for service academies have seen a topic of discussion and argument for many decades. I for one believe we should have service academies. They are not only centers of education, training, and leadership development, but a representation of the strength, morals, and future of this country.

I have mixed feelings whenever I hear about the 250,000 dollar cost of an academy education, or whatever it costs. It sounds like a lot but who am I to say it's too much!
 
I told everyone I would five and dive too. And here I am, racking more and more service obligation.

They're Mids. They don't know what will happen. Everyone hates the Academy when they're there. I don't think there's a single CMOD desk in Bancroft without IHTFP on it somewhere. Particularly the current climate during and post-COVID.

Better they catch and get rid of the legendary Youngster Cynicism as a 3/C than as an ENS/JG. Nothing worse than an JO with a cynical attitude--infects their entire division and other JOs in the wardroom.

SWO community retention is not necessarily a Navy retention issue. SWO loses a significant number of officers to lateral transfer as well--which is why I caution against assuming lateral transfer is sure thing. The losing community can absolutely close that valve for entire year groups.

Lots of folks do get out at five years. Nothing wrong with that, and many of them have their own reasons. Deployments get tough. Family issues come up. Sometimes you gotta go home and take care of the peanut farm.

Lots of folks swear they'll never do more than 5 years, and then end up doing more than 5 years, because they got some nice shore duty, or they got picked up for a special program, or it turns out the Fleet isn't as bad as other MIDN made it out to be. As it turns out, other MIDN aren't exactly experts on "what the Fleet is like," including that salty prior that got picked up for USNA out of A-school.

I think USNA at least provides some guarantee of an accession pipeline for the Navy, in times where politics and controversy might cause universities to close down ROTC units, and the economy is nice and OCS numbers dry up. We're in the opposite environment currently, so it's hard to see the value.
 
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justdoit19 said:
Someone else also explained before that there is built in and expected attrition…that the Navy (or any military branch) cannot absorb EVERYONE staying 40 years.
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The real break point needs to happen before they go for O4 (Major/LCDR) which is where the numbers authorized for the services steeply decline from the numbers of O3s in each year group. That happens at the 9 to 10 yr point so somewhere between 5 and 10 is kind of designed as an offramp. If retention during that period sharply increases than the number of non-selects to O4 will SHARPLY increase which causes a large number of folks to be "forced out" after being passed over for promotion twice.
Basically, the USN and USMC have a lot of room for Capts/Lts but not much for LCDRs/Majors. Since our system BY LAW is a "forced up or out" for officers, too much retention is not necessarily a good thing.

Now plebes or even candidates who have NO intention of making it a career are not a good thing either as I'd prefer them to actually LOOK at things before spouting off like that.
 
nuensis said:
I told everyone I would five and dive too. And here I am, racking more and more service obligation.

They're Mids. They don't know what will happen. Everyone hates the Academy when they're there. I don't think there's a single CMOD desk in Bancroft without IHTFP on it somewhere. Particularly the current climate during and post-COVID.

Better they catch and get rid of the legendary Youngster Cynicism as a 3/C than as an ENS/JG. Nothing worse than an JO with a cynical attitude--infects their entire division and other JOs in the wardroom.

SWO community retention is not necessarily a Navy retention issue. SWO loses a significant number of officers to lateral transfer as well--which is why I caution against assuming lateral transfer is sure thing. The losing community can absolutely close that valve for entire year groups.

Lots of folks do get out at five years. Nothing wrong with that, and many of them have their own reasons. Deployments get tough. Family issues come up. Sometimes you gotta go home and take care of the peanut farm.

Lots of folks swear they'll never do more than 5 years, and then end up doing more than 5 years, because they got some nice shore duty, or they got picked up for a special program, or it turns out the Fleet isn't as bad as other MIDN made it out to be. As it turns out, other MIDN aren't exactly experts on "what the Fleet is like," including that salty prior that got picked up for USNA out of A-school.

I think USNA at least provides some guarantee of an accession pipeline for the Navy, in times where politics and controversy might cause universities to close down ROTC units, and the economy is nice and OCS numbers dry up. We're in the opposite environment currently, so it's hard to see the value.
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OldRetSWO said:
The real break point needs to happen before they go for O4 (Major/LCDR) which is where the numbers authorized for the services steeply decline from the numbers of O3s in each year group. That happens at the 9 to 10 yr point so somewhere between 5 and 10 is kind of designed as an offramp. If retention during that period sharply increases than the number of non-selects to O4 will SHARPLY increase which causes a large number of folks to be "forced out" after being passed over for promotion twice.
Basically, the USN and USMC have a lot of room for Capts/Lts but not much for LCDRs/Majors. Since our system BY LAW is a "forced up or out" for officers, too much retention is not necessarily a good thing.

Now plebes or even candidates who have NO intention of making it a career are not a good thing either as I'd prefer them to actually LOOK at things before spouting off like that.
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I think you guys are of different vintages. Do you think the change in the retirement benefits system several years ago has made any difference?

It would appear that there is less of a penalty for staying beyond 5 and leaving after 8-10?
 
OldRetSWO said:
The real break point needs to happen before they go for O4 (Major/LCDR) which is where the numbers authorized for the services steeply decline from the numbers of O3s in each year group. That happens at the 9 to 10 yr point so somewhere between 5 and 10 is kind of designed as an offramp. If retention during that period sharply increases than the number of non-selects to O4 will SHARPLY increase which causes a large number of folks to be "forced out" after being passed over for promotion twice.
Basically, the USN and USMC have a lot of room for Capts/Lts but not much for LCDRs/Majors. Since our system BY LAW is a "forced up or out" for officers, too much retention is not necessarily a good thing.
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Numbers to support: About 85% for Department Head screening across three chances. After that, about 70% realistic selection rate to O-4 following two (ish) successful DH tours.

Some other communities (Aviation and Intel come to mind) are worse.

The Navy doesn't just keep people for their patriotism--sustained superior performance at sea is necessary. If you fall off the "golden path" or are not "due course" the Navy can be pretty heartless in thanking you for your service and showing you the door.

cb7893 said:
I think you guys are of different vintages. Do you think the change in the retirement benefits system several years ago has made any difference?

It would appear that there is less of a penalty for staying beyond 5 and leaving after 8-10?
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Depends on the person. I do think it lowers the "stakes" so to speak. No longer as worried about walking away from anything less than 20 years with nothing.

But I don't think it's a major driver. Anecdotal evidence, but most of the officers getting out of the Navy I see are doing so because of other opportunities they want to pursue (i.e. Medical or Law school), family (deployments, strain on relationships), not making it (off the "golden path" and see the writing on the wall). I've seen a couple that hate the Navy and are getting out due to the cynicism alone, but most have other, perfectly reasonable, motivations.
 
You know...after almost flunking out of USAFA, I was convinced: get my wings, fly for six, and then bail and make big bucks with the airlines...And then when I got my wings and they switched me from my fighter of choice to a heavy target because of scheduling conflicts, I started filling out airline applications years early.

And then I flew...the missions were actually pretty cool...triple-secret, recce, refueling...okay...but, it's not my fighter..." six and out!"

They one day "They" said "Hey, captain, would you be interested in an exchange to fly a fighter?" :yikes:

Okay...let's extend a few years to do that...it's gonna be SO COOL!!!!

"Well, I hope that was fun, now it's back to your regular jet...but...you're an early select for Major...you get to go to ACSC in residence...get a masters...only a couple of years..."

Then one day "they" said, "You're at 30, you're not a general, you're done." And I was retired.

Somewhere along the way, I forgot to "six and dive."

Steve
 
Have to admit, that's the "trap" a lot of my peers have fallen into. Screened for NSWDG, White House, JOCCP, CNODP, Naval Postgraduate School, LEP, Olmsted, FSEP...list goes on.

"Aw man, that's real cool...I'll do this real quick and then get out. Three year obligation is only one more tour."

It's like the Navy knows what it's doing.
 
DH: All through USNA, fly Navy, then get out soonest opportunity, make big bucks flying for airlines. First aerobatic hop at flight school - and they pay me to do this??? Flew Navy Phantoms and Tomcats, had 4 operational commands and a full career.
Me: I just want to get some job skills, build up some savings, earn some benefits, then get out - gosh I really love this life, full career.
Sitting at the daily USNA Commandant’s meeting as a BattO with the DepDant and 5 fellow BattOs, all of us laughing about how we were sure we were going to get out after ADSO. All of us did full careers, with all in the room having made O-6 or Admiral/general. The Dant went on to become Chief of Naval Operations.

Not one mid or cadet knows how their journey will unfold. Most of the time they are just venting, because it’s probably uncool to say I love this place. USNA is not the Fleet or Corps either; they won’t know if they are staying or going in actuality for some time.
 
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