Flying?

Quick question: if one were to skip IFS in order to not wash out, wouldn't they wash out of UPT if they were destined to do poorly at IFS?

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Generally, those who would do poorly at IFS would not do well at UPT, but there are exceptions to every rule.

I managed to hook my IFS checkride in a situation I don't recall seeing in T-6s. IFS is a screening program. They expect to wash people out. UPT accepts that people wash out, but it is not part of the stated goal.
 
Thanks for clarifying, though I do agree with hornet that it is a bit of a loaded question.

First off, as I have written and as hornet says, most that are eliminated from IFS cannot land the plane. If you invest time and money into a PPL, you will be able to land an aircraft, and as a result could go to IFS with almost no shot of being eliminated. As a result of your extra flying time, you will also have a solid start on UPT, though you must be very ready to re-learn the Air Force way of flying.

However, for those that go to IFS with little to no flight time, IFS can definitely be a challenge because in all but one of your ten pre-solo flights, you may only get three patterns per flight to practice landing. That's really not tons of landing exposure, and IFS is not designed to allow much extra practice or additional sorties. The premise is to see if the student can learn at the pace supposedly required in UPT. If you can't, you'll be eliminated.

UPT is similar in the sense that the learning curve must be picked up within the first ten or eleven rides in order to solo. However, there is a little more flexibility built into the T-6 syllabus, and you have a little more control of your own training. I'd also argue that there is much more investment in the student at UPT in the sense that they do not want to wash out students. As a result, more effort will be put into helping them succeed instead of the IFS mentality of seeing if they can learn at the prescribed pace and cutting them if not. So to sort of answer the question, I'd argue it would be possible for someone that did not complete IFS to complete the UPT, but that student would more likely than not struggle through the program.


Just for my own background, I didn't have the best luck with weather while doing USAFA airmanship, and as a result only got 5 rides during soaring, and another 5 rides during powered flight. In those 5 rides, I never really put the T-53 on the ground, but even that exposure was enough that I was able to learn on the DA-20 fairly quickly. However, I'd disagree with hornetguy and argue that the T-6 is much more challenging than the DA-20 to land. But that was just my experience.





It's a prerequisite for UPT if you don't have a PPL. I was wondering if skipping IFS, with the inherent risk of busting IFS, actually might benefit anyone interested in getting winged. In your opinion....can you imagine someone that was unable to pass IFS being able to pass UPT?

Oh, that's a loaded question! My opinion, and only that, is YES. The two major factors, so I hear, on DQs from IFS are the hazing factor and landing. Hazing factor in UPT can be limited if they find it's causing issues, but they are less lenient in IFS. However landing is a bigger issue. A DA-20 is like a glider and landing, for first timers in a plane, is tough. A T-6 has very different performance and I don't think landings are as tough in terms of strange factors. I have a friend who did powered flight and was not allowed to solo because she couldn't get landings. She went on to IFS and passed (prior XP helped) and was successful in ENJJPT.
 
Thank you everybody! Again, I appreciate you sharing your opinions and experience. :thumb:
 
Thank you.....I value your opinion and experience. :thumb:

BTW - what is the "hazing factor"?


I am curious about this also.


The purpose of UPT is to train the future pilot leaders of the AF. If someone is unfit to fill that role then they should be removed from training.

...and guess what, if you go through a pilot training program for a company...they will fire those who don't meet thr standards.
 
IFS is designed to be a high-stress program. They add stress in a variety to of ways you won't find in an operational flying unit, and some you won't find in UPT either.
The timeline is very condensed, the flight commanders tend to take a bit of an adversarial stance with their students, and the smallest details are emphasized.

For example, if you forget the period at the end of the written boldface step, that's a failure in IFS. In my current community, as long as the intent is correct, you just get some ribbing, but you don't fail.
 
I read all of these statistics for failing and not getting a fighter. Are they really that rare? What kind of candidate end up getting a fighter? Superman? Does anyone on here know someone who actually got a fighter? What did that person have that the others didn't? What things can I do to be that ONE person?
 
I read all of these statistics for failing and not getting a fighter. Are they really that rare? What kind of candidate end up getting a fighter? Superman? Does anyone on here know someone who actually got a fighter? What did that person have that the others didn't? What things can I do to be that ONE person?

I've personally and literally flown with HUNDREDS of guys (and a few gals) who tracked fighters out of UPT. Yes, the odds are tough, but Yes there are those out there who get them. Steath's son graduated #1 in his UPT class, and has just completed his F-16 transition course (my goodness, how I envy him).

You don't have to be Superman, but you do have to be able to handle pressure and multitasking at levels most folks can't handle. Theynalso work harder than the next guy, times 100. It also helps that for some, it just comes naturally.

But I will also say this: while so many have dreams of playing Maverick and Iceman, I can count one less than one hand the number of pilots I met in my life who DIDN'T LOVE the plane they we're flying and the mission they were performing, either fighter, heavy, or whatever-- and those guys were the ones everyone thought were jerks anyway.

Just food for thought......
 
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I read all of these statistics for failing and not getting a fighter. Are they really that rare? What kind of candidate end up getting a fighter? Superman? Does anyone on here know someone who actually got a fighter? What did that person have that the others didn't? What things can I do to be that ONE person?

Cannon you asked a lot of this last year (and eagle36, a fighter pilot, chimed in). I'm not sure what you think has changed. The statistics are just that, statistics. It's also not the case that 25 guys enter UPT wanting a fighter and most fail at that endeavor. Eagle36 is a fighter guy, my husband is a fighter pilot, and I have many friends who are fighter pilots. Bullet got the main commonality in all those cases and that's the willingness to put in long days, work their butts off, and persistently tear their flying apart every flight to be better.

You are still a high schooler. There is no formula to make yourself "that guy" that gets a fighter. Grades are not an effective predictor. Nor are you major, what athletics you do, the clubs you participate in, nor your hobbies. About the only consistent thing is to work your butt off, always try to do better, and be willing to both dish out criticism and take it.

As people like Pima have told you before, right now you need to focus on the things in front of you. Finishing HS strong, getting an appointment, keeping in shape. You're asking about things that are so far down the road that you're missing the important things right in front of you. It's great to be curious and looking forward, but you're asking a lot of things that don't have great answers. And many things that require you to be in the organization with some experience to get a better understanding.
 
Hornet, just curious, what is your airframe?

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I read all of these statistics for failing and not getting a fighter. Are they really that rare? What kind of candidate end up getting a fighter? Superman? Does anyone on here know someone who actually got a fighter? What did that person have that the others didn't? What things can I do to be that ONE person?

As Bullet said, my son just finished his F-16 FTU and is headed to his first operational squadron. I will leave it to those who have answered you for the Air Force view of what it takes.

From a dad's perspective, I think it's a combination of many things. Yes, being smart is required. Like Bullet said, it's multitasking to the extreme. There are 25 things going on in the cockpit at once and you are the only crewmember. When I was in the simulator at Luke my son showed me all of the switches and knobs just on the throttle and stick. Each finger of both hands has a switch, knob, or button, and different combinations of each one do different things. Over 200 function combinations without taking your hands off either stick. It is mind boggling to me to think how anyone remembers it all.

My son is also an untiring worker, combined with a perfectionist. He won't quit anything until he gets it right. I know he stayed up many nights in UPT going over his materials until he knew he would get a 100% on the test.

Lastly, he was just given an uncanny ability for flying. He has often said that the easiest part of all UPT is flying the plane. The other stuff is the work.

Cannonball, I am not sure if any of this will help you. Concentrate on the Academy first, and then getting a pilot slot.

Stealth_81
 
Stealth, did your son have flying experience prior to entering the academy?

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Stealth, did your son have flying experience prior to entering the academy?

No, he didn't. His first experience flying was the Soaring program at USAFA. He also did Powered Flight as a senior.

Stealth_81
 
Thank god for my rank. Un-FAIPable!

Funny, Hornet.

I should have told you that my son was at Laughlin this weekend visiting your weather squadron! :wink:

He just left there to drive to San Antonio for one night. He is base-hopping his way from Arizona to Florida.

Stealth_81
 
No, he didn't. His first experience flying was the Soaring program at USAFA. He also did Powered Flight as a senior.

Stealth_81

Good, then I don't feel behind :thumbup:

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As people like Pima have told you before, right now you need to focus on the things in front of you. Finishing HS strong, getting an appointment, keeping in shape. You're asking about things that are so far down the road that you're missing the important things right in front of you. It's great to be curious and looking forward, but you're asking a lot of things that don't have great answers. And many things that require you to be in the organization with some experience to get a better understanding.

Hornetguy: Yes, I know what people have answered me before. I have been doing just what they said. 4.0 grades last two terms. 32 ACT (31M, 32S, 33E, 32R). 4 Varsity letters (so far) in track and cross country. Already named captain for cross country this coming fall. German honor society. National honor society. Summer Seminar. Summer work camp through church. I am working on the AFA application. I have a goal of being an officer and flying fighters. I ask questions about that.

What part of UPT are you in right now, Hornetguy? Is it like you thought it would be?
 
As Bullet said, my son just finished his F-16 FTU and is headed to his first operational squadron. I will leave it to those who have answered you for the Air Force view of what it takes.

From a dad's perspective, I think it's a combination of many things. Yes, being smart is required. Like Bullet said, it's multitasking to the extreme. There are 25 things going on in the cockpit at once and you are the only crewmember. When I was in the simulator at Luke my son showed me all of the switches and knobs just on the throttle and stick. Each finger of both hands has a switch, knob, or button, and different combinations of each one do different things. Over 200 function combinations without taking your hands off either stick. It is mind boggling to me to think how anyone remembers it all.

My son is also an untiring worker, combined with a perfectionist. He won't quit anything until he gets it right. I know he stayed up many nights in UPT going over his materials until he knew he would get a 100% on the test.

Lastly, he was just given an uncanny ability for flying. He has often said that the easiest part of all UPT is flying the plane. The other stuff is the work.

Cannonball, I am not sure if any of this will help you. Concentrate on the Academy first, and then getting a pilot slot.

Stealth_81

Thanks, Stealth. I will keep working on the Academy.
 
First off,

AFA will always be the best commissioning option to get a pilot slot. End of subject. Period. Dot.

That being said if you do some more research, you will see via agagles that the AFA will now be going to the same system AFROTC and OCS uses. You must apply for all FOUR rated career fields, not just pilot.
~Again AFA cadets will do better than their peers.

The point is things have changed since Stealth's DS commissioned only 3 years ago. IFS was not waived for those that have a PPL. It is now. PCSM 2.0 did not exist for selection, it does now.
~~~ PCSM 2.0 places weight on the amount of flight hours by subsets.
~ AFROTC cadets are not naive, they are not vying against every AFROTC cadet nationally for the leftovers from the AFA, but against each AFROTC cadet that now has a PPL. Thus, many will have a PPL to secure that golden slot.

Additionally, before you place the advice given in your memory bank, which you should, look at the breakdowns from a different perspective.
~~~ Some that get fighters were hired by ANG and know when they enter that they will go fighters because that is what their unit flies. They are not going ADAF per se
~~~ Some are xtraining from CSO or RPA. They have been through that academic life to wing, and also have operational hours. I don't know what is now called a CSO, use to be WSO that didn't get a pretty nose plane. Again, they have lived through the rigor already, they understand the expectations at UPT because this is their second time of being in the thick of things, plus, they now have an operational experience that AFA grads don't. Think about it. Luck of the draw. You may be the best newly minted O1, but that CSO xtraining will be in your class. They were a CSO for 2 years operationanlly, and landed an F15E, they have briefed op missions for years. 1 35 drops, and you have a CSO in the class, do you think you will be the shining star.
~~~ Point is I believe in fate/destiny. Stealth's DS deserves every millimeter of respect, but the question is did his UPT class have a CSO? It might have been different if it did. Don't assume anything, because every drop is different.

I am not saying you won't get a fighter, nor do I think you are behind the eight ball. I am saying what everyone else is saying. Part is ability, and part is fate.
 
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